New CLX Owner

[David Matz]

DSOTM will have instruments etc. in the surround channels - to me this is GIMMICKY. When I listen to live music, I do not sit in the middle of the band, I sit in the audience. For me properly done MCH music uses the surrounds for ambiance, hall, venue sound additions. This is why I like Classical SACD's the best - but they too can get very aggressive with the surround channels.

So it is really a matter of experience and personal preferences for MCH. But when done correctly it can be amazing. Update: And I also feel (based on my experiences) surround speakers should be full range and not these little things you see used by most.


But while sitting there, the influence of the hall/venue does have an affect on how and what you are hearing. This is where MCH SACD when done properly (my opinion on "properly") will give you more of the "you are there" than 2ch will.


To me (my opinion again) this does not equate to good MCH sound. When the album is done properly and the surround channel setup is done properly, you do not even realize the surround channels are playing. But change from MCH to 2CH on your player and you will see/hear the differences and what you are missing - everything just collapses forward and inward.

Dan, what you say captures it perfectly! Bernard, once you experience an excellent multi-channel recording, please re-read Dan's post as it is right on the money. This is not about sound engineers playing around to trip you out, but capturing as much of the performance as possible.

When I heard Peter McGrath (audio recording engineer and Wilson marketing VP) a few months ago, he played the stuff he recorded on all 4 channels and then just the 2 rear channels. There is a LOT of musical information there.

 

[RichTeer]

On the topic of Turntables...

I have done some preliminary research while waiting for my speakers and it looks like the VPI HRX Reference Turntable gets some pretty good reviews. Anyone here agree or disagree with this initial pick? Would I be better off starting at a lower price point VPI? It looks like the VPI Aries 3 also gets good reviews.

Just trying to determine options at this point.

Depends what your budget is. I'd also seriously consider SME's turntables and arms if I were you. The Model 10 is about the same as the HRX, IIRC.

 

[RichTeer]

Cost no object I'd go after a DaVinci, Fleikert, TW Raven or Walker personally. If the sky was really the limit I'd look at Rockport or Continueum; but that's well into 6 figure territory.

Real world though - I'd be proud to own an HRX.

I'd add the SME Model 30/2 to that list, or if funds are not quite generous enough for the 30/2, I'd consider the SME Model 20/2 + SME Series V arm.

I don't think the Rockport System III Serius is in production any more--but I suppose if someone were to wave enough shekels under Andy's nose he'd oblidge.

 

[tonepub]

The SME and the VPI sound completely different.

Should you go down the SME road, the iV.Vi is a newer version of the arm, using a slightly different spring system to set the tracking force. The iV.Vi is a little zippier sounding than the V, being a little bit darker. Both excellent, but the tonality will be up to what you finally end up loving.

SME 10 is a great table, had one for about a year and a half, I ended up trying the iV.Vi and V arms on it, as opposed to the stock arm that is slightly better than the standard 309, but still has a removable headshell.

The 20.2 is bigger and has a lot more weight than the 10, but a lot more money...

I love SME, but if you are buying new, consider the TW-Acustic Raven. If you only need one arm (the Raven One), you can buy one of these for about $6500, add your favorite arm and be knocking on the door of the SME 20.2 for a lot less money. You can also add a second arm board to the Raven One and make it a Raven TWO, with two arms. This is an interesting setup if you really become a vinyl nut.

But the table I have to say I'm really in love with (as much as I've enjoyed the SME and the Raven) is the Spiral Groove SG-2. This is about 20k with a TriPlanar Mk 7 arm and is one of the most musical tables I've heard at ANY price. We had it side by side with the 60k Continuum Criterion and everyone preferred the SG-2.

I may be buying the review sample, so if you want to come to Portland...

It's some of the best analog I've ever had the privilege to experience.

Or if you aren't going to get too carried away, a Rega P9 with a Skala or Dynavector XV-1s will give you a good taste of what the big boy tables will do for about 9000 bucks and only takes about 15 min to setup! I'll be buried with my P9 for sure!

(yes, I have way too many turntables....)

Good luck on the hunt. Decide how much fussing and tinkering you want to do before you decide on the table...

 

[User211]

Pst - don't tell Michael Fremer...

I'm a huge sucker for TT aesthetics. If you feel the same way, maybe look at models from Transrotor and Clearaudio. Google for their websites. They will still chuck in excellent performances, I suspect.

 

[Bernard]

I noticed from their newsletter that Acoustic Sounds has some deals on SME turntables.

 

[mgakathereaper]

Wow. A ton of good insight on the turntable front. I think I just opened another can of worms...

It looks like I cannot go wrong with VPI or SME and I need to determine how "tweakable" I want to go and which sound I like better. From a purely aesthetics standpoint I like the VPI look but I am thinking I will need to hear them both on my system to draw a conclusion.

User211 - The Clearaudio "Statement" indeed looks bad ass... I am a sucker for aesthetics but I would choose sound over looks when it comes down to it. Prime example is my CLX purchase.

Bernard - I saw the Acoustic Sounds newsletter. Thx.

tonepub - Some good advice and options across the spectrum. Clearly you have some experience here. In addition to the VPI's and SME's I will put the Spiral Groove SG-2 and Raven on my list of investigation. It sounds like in the 20k range you would go with the SG-2. I travel quite a bit so if I am in the Portland area I will take you up on the offer.

MiTT - I definitely need to determine my "tweak" threshold before I buy. In reality you can probably tweak a turntable for every record when you get down to it. The question is do I want to have all those options and what sonic improvements will result.

twich54 - Good to know you are an owner of the Aries III. I maybe picking your brain as I go down this path. Have you had the chance to compare the Aries to some of the other models mentioned in this thread?

RichTeer - The 30/2 is probably more than I want to spend but the 20/2 and 10 would be on the picking list.

Thanks guys. This is all very helpful. Clearly I need to get out and listen to some of these options.

 

[tonepub]

Good luck on the hunt, but I'd say the amount you want to play with the table is the most important thing to consider.

I've been screwing around with analog for about 35 years now and if you can't get your analog setup dialed in, you won't use it.

If you aren't one who likes to fiddle, just make sure you have a good dealer that can support whatever you do decide on. If this isn't an option, I know a couple of excellent turntable guys that will fly to you and in about three hours can really dial in your setup.

It just depends how hands on you want to be, but once you really get a great analog front end, you will really enjoy it!

 

[tonepub]

Pst - don't tell Michael Fremer...

I'm a huge sucker for TT aesthetics. If you feel the same way, maybe look at models from Transrotor and Clearaudio. Google for their websites. They will still chuck in excellent performances, I suspect.

Michael Fremer actually called me after the Continuum review and couldn't believe that I didn't think it was the most amazing thing on Earth.

I lived with it for five months. Great piece of audio jewelry, but no better performance than a lot of great other tables that cost 15k. And we had identical Dynavector XV-s carts on both tables, so it was super easy to compare apples to apples...

It's a great table, just not worth 60k to me....

 

[khenegar]

Sota/tt

Have you ever considered the SOTA table with vacum hold down, this is an outstanding turntable with good reviews, love the vacum hold down idea, no other turntable i think does this. it works great. good luck

 

[User211]

User211 - The Clearaudio "Statement" indeed looks bad ass... I am a sucker for aesthetics but I would choose sound over looks when it comes down to it. Prime example is my CLX purchase.

There are some nice Transrotor/Clearaudio pics here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7027. Regular members don't look - you have seen it all before!

Believe me - the Transrotors and Clearaudios will sound superb...

Essentially, given the same top flight arm and cartridge, these high end turntables will all sound different. Cartridges are insanely sensitive and they will pick up all sorts of things - like what kind of support you have placed the deck on. But I believe the thing that makes a really big difference is how thick the platter is and what material it is made off. There is a lot of mechanical energy involved, and the way it is dissipated by the platter is a top determinant of how a deck sounds.

I recently heard my deck transformed by changing the platter. Check my system link below.

 

[User211]

Here's another nice deck getting good reviews lately - Ken Kessler liked this one.

From Hong Kong - an as yet unseen "souped up" Dr Feickert pic... mainly because I just snatched it from some HD video...

http://www.feickert.de/

As you can see, there are just so many different options to tempt you with

 

[MiTT]

Have you ever considered the SOTA table with vacum hold down, this is an outstanding turntable with good reviews, love the vacum hold down idea, no other turntable i think does this. it works great. good luck

Actually there are several of the top end ClearAudio, Basis, Walker and Kuzma's have that vacuum hold down.

Forgot to mention Kuzma in my original recommendations. I got a chance to hear their Stabi Reference with the Air Line tangent tracking arm not long ago. Beautiful design, jewel like appearance, awesome build quality and sound to die for.

Jeff, have you spent any time with this setup and care to comment?

 

[MiTT]

Also forgot to mention the incredible ClearAudio Statement that several of us got to hear at RMAF this year. I mean if you REALLY had the scratch ($150K) this might be the itch to spend it on...

 

[tonepub]

I've only listened to them at friends houses and a few shows. Liked what I heard though.

After years of struggling with analog, I think the key component to having a pleasant time with it is to find a table that can be easily supported. Again, identify if you like to fiddle with stuff and have the patience to really dial a particular table in or not. If not, be prepared to pay someone to support it and really dial it in for you.

Or get something like a Rega that requires very little setup.

I'd rather have my P9 with a decent cartridge than a Continuum or any of the other mega tables that's not set up right.

It also really depends on your record collection and how much time you want to devote to a pristine record collection.

I know everyone is talking about buying these great records in thrift stores for 50 cents, but those days are long over. If you have a high performance system with a pair of CLX's, you aren't going to be happy with buying records from thrift stores.

I'll take outstanding digital over mediocre analog any day. But a great analog front end is quite special indeed....

 

[FISH_MAN]

I just could not resist the urge to post after seeing the ClearAudio Statement
I can swallow a lot when it comes to " HIFI engineering " but that thing looks like the biggest rip off intelligence insulting piece of equipment I have ever seen.I would not begrudge anyone who has the scratch to buy one but I think they really have taken things to far.


can not wait to see the pics of your new CLX and the rest of your system :drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:

 

[tonepub]

Have you heard it?

 

[SundayNiagara]

"I think they really have taken things to far."

Have they?

 

[tonepub]

Usually, it's what the market will bear.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the current economic conditions, we see some of the 50-150k turntable market go away. But you never know. All of the mfrs still seem to be telling us that this stuff is still selling.

Don't have to sell a lot of 150k turntables to stay in business....

 

[User211]

Unpublished as of yet HK big pic of the Clearaudio. It does have some cool design features - the hanging weight (see bottom of pic) makes sure it is self-levelling. The platter runs on a magnetic bearing, and it parallel tracks. Nice thick platter, and totally heavy enough to eliminate vibration effects.

Cool design, then. Close to world's best, I expect. Uncool dollars, though. But uncool dollars allows close to no compromise designs. Always the way, I am afraid.