New CLX Owner

[Bernard]

Slight thread hijack:

I have not listened to multi-channel in decades, but when I go to a classical concert I usually have a mid-hall seat, and all of the instruments are in front of me, in their own acoustic space. I do not hear instruments to the side of me, or behind me, or extending beyond the edges of the stage. I certainly do not feel like I am in the middle of the music; I am an observer.

So how does multi-channel fit into this, when some of the sound emanates from behind you? It seems to me that recreating something that is supposed to be wholly in front of you requires only 2 speakers, but I don't have a closed mind, so convince me, you multi-channel aficionados.

Speaking of aficionados, we have not heard from Roberto in a long time. I hope he is okay.

 

[DTB300]

And get SACD versions or Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon, Dire Straits Brother in Arms and either Steely Dan Gaucho or Elton John Yellow Brick Road, too start.

DSOTM will have instruments etc. in the surround channels - to me this is GIMMICKY. When I listen to live music, I do not sit in the middle of the band, I sit in the audience. For me properly done MCH music uses the surrounds for ambiance, hall, venue sound additions. This is why I like Classical SACD's the best - but they too can get very aggressive with the surround channels.

Unfortunately there are no standards for the mixes, just what the engineer wants to do with each album.

Now on the other hand I have friends who are musicians, and they like it when the surrounds have instruments and singers. They feel as if they are sitting there with the band without playing.

So it is really a matter of experience and personal preferences for MCH. But when done correctly it can be amazing. Update: And I also feel (based on my experiences) surround speakers should be full range and not these little things you see used by most.

IMO, BIA is the best sounding of the bunch of SACD's you listed. There are FAR better sounding SACD's than the others either for 2CH or MCH playback. Yellowjackets, Fourplay, ESE Sessions, Flim & BB's, Tierney Sutton, Mark Knopfler, Britten/Elgar, Boston Symphony Chamber, Iso-Mike, Steven Davis, to name a few SACD's which I believe have great sonics - but you have to like the music too.

If you are a Floyd fan, the Wall on MoFi (2CH) is, IMO, sonically superior than DSOTM.

I have not listened to multi-channel in decades, but when I go to a classical concert I usually have a mid-hall seat, and all of the instruments are in front of me, in their own acoustic space. I do not hear instruments to the side of me, or behind me, or extending beyond the edges of the stage. I certainly do not feel like I am in the middle of the music; I am an observer.

But while sitting there, the influence of the hall/venue does have an affect on how and what you are hearing. This is where MCH SACD when done properly (my opinion on "properly") will give you more of the "you are there" than 2ch will.

So how does multi-channel fit into this, when some of the sound emanates from behind you?

To me (my opinion again) this does not equate to good MCH sound. When the album is done properly and the surround channel setup is done properly, you do not even realize the surround channels are playing. But change from MCH to 2CH on your player and you will see/hear the differences and what you are missing - everything just collapses forward and inward.

Speaking of aficionados, we have not heard from Roberto in a long time. I hope he is okay.

Roberto is heavy into MCH music for Classical too. Hopefully he will chime in here with his experiences.

 

[User211]

Bernard, exactly the point I wanted to make but never bothered to. I am all ears too.

However, please note I have heard a few... my brother has a Mission based one (I have also heard some at shows). He almost exclusively listens to 2 channel for music, claiming surround sound murders it. It is good with movies, though. Especially helicopters - but they are few and far between!

Opps post was supposed to follow Bernard's!

 

[JMAUSGP]

Bernard when I saw that you posted I quickly looked to read your post, I expected a jaw dropping gafaw or at least a whimsical chuckle, but alas you sounded serious.

It is really quite simple, if you want to be a bystander or observer that is fine. And I am serious about that. But the best seat in the house is the conductor, he or she experiences the music and the music is literally all around him or her, winds in front, horns to the side, piano and or strings can even be somewhat to the side and behind, huh, just like a good surround system. With good surround sound you are no longer an observer. With good surround sound you can capture the ambience of the venue, you can actually capture the energy of the music that feeds the conductor. If you could listen to music in the best seat in the house, every time, why wouldn't you? Oh and any time you want to jump back a few rows and be an observer(2 channel), just hit a button and go to 2 channel. It is a whole new world to listen to music both ways and decide for yourself which seat is better. Sometimes you will listen to 2 channel, sometimes you want an experience and you will listen to multi channel, just click a button. And hey there is a reason that the conductor is worn out at the end of a concert, experiencing the music is a lot more physically and mentally demanding than sitting out in the middle observering. And I am not trying to be judgemental or a smartass here. You asked what makes multi-channel something worth experiencing. Several years ago I ran into the symphony conductor for our local symphony here in Indy at my local hi-end audio shop, he had Logans, and he had a surround sound system that way better than mine. I talked to him about surround sound and basicly he described the conducting experience is what makes him tick. I have been listening to as much good surround sound as I can find since then. You will find that surround sound is different because it has different objectives, sometimes it is about reproducing the sound field, so the music was performed at Carniege Hall, and when you engage the Surruond Sound you are there at Carniegie Hall complete with all the ambience, at least if you close your eyes.
Sometimes it is about the conductor experience or the sound engineer experience. But again sometimes you don't want or can't do the experience so just hit that button and blink you are back in 2 channel. I guess it is kind of like why go from mono to Stereo. Because technology allowed more information to be delivered to your ears and many but not all thought that was an enjoyable experience, in the old days you could just hit a switch and go back to mono if the information was too much or too tricked up. Some Surround Sound stuff is tricked up and like alot of things it is not as enjoyable as say Stereo. But the truth is certain SACDs and DVD-As like Pink Floyd, Elton John, Steely Dan, Dire Straits, Roxy Music,.......and many others were actually mixed to be experienced in Surround Sound. Well that's my story and I am sticking to it......what you say you have video!

 

[Bernard]

It is really quite simple, if you want to be a bystander or observer that is fine. And I am serious about that. But the best seat in the house is the conductor, he or she experiences the music and the music is literally all around him or her, winds in front, horns to the side, piano and or strings can even be somewhat to the side and behind, huh, just like a good surround system.

When I go to a concert I am a bystander; I have no choice. The conductor's perspective would not be real to me. Remember that the conductor has to focus on each individual instrument, whereas I do not; I listen to the whole. I am trying to recreate a real experience, not what would really be a pipedream to me - don't we all want to be conductors?

 

[C.A.P]

Way off topic here!

Make sure to run the Krell Silver CAST at least, not the older copper CAST. The copper are fatter and not as revealing. JBAudioPimp has some right now .I have not tried the MMF by Nordost. I did try the Transparent CAST and they were good but nothing special for the price I could have gotten the MMF silver from Nordost.

 

[JMAUSGP]

DTB300,

I actually read your post after I posted mine. I found it interesting that you have muscian friends that like MCH. Most of the MCH guys at my local high end shop are muscians as well. I really think it is the experience of making music with other muscians all around them in the band that makes the MCH experience what it is.

And again, I am not saying that 2 channel doesn't have its merits, because it does, but quite simply to dismiss MCH as gimicky without actually comparing or experiencing the difference well it is not one of the things that want to regret that I missed in life, especially if you already have a HT setup, listening to MCH is as easy as buying a Oppo Universal player for less than 2 hundred bucks. And again don't dismiss it because it is cheap, Oppo products perform way beyond their money and hey if you don't like it you can always use it to upconvert your standard DVDs to 1080P, they do that with the best of them, but on the other hand you may get multi-channel desease and then you are on another quest, looking for Mr. Goodbar or was it looking for a better sound byte, hey I am old and I have forgotten more than I can remember.

 

[User211]

Quote David Matz: "However, as we all know, it is all personal tastes. At a recent shootout of a CJ musical muscle amp and their top tube amp on the CLS, 3 out of 4 guys liked the SS, while one person liked the tubes. To me it was not even close - I thought SS way better. Obviously this is all anecdotal evidence. But it does illustrate how experiential this all is."

I think the CLS sucks power, and the CJ wasn't enough for it. I remember the reviews at the time saying it was a b*tch to drive. The CLX is a different and better beast, however. I have just played my CLX recording again through my Ascents, via, you guessed it, a tube amp! But in the recording, you can hear that the CLX has dynamics a plenty with 160 Watts of Jadis power. There's just loads of slam in there playing La Grange. Just felt I needed to make that point, that's all

 

[mgakathereaper]

tonepub -

I myself own zero vinyl but my dad has around 100 of them that I used to listen to on his turntable growing up. He was not an audiophile so he has quite the mix of dance/party music for when he entertained.

If I remember correctly, I think he had a Phillips turntable which I could probably dig up. It is low end I am sure.

JMAUSGP -
I will indeed try the multi-channel approach after I get my 2-Channel dialed in. the Krell SACD only as single end outputs for multi-channel but I give it a try for sure for comparison. I have most of the SACD's you mentioned so it should be a good test.

Bernard -
I have not developed my personal preference for 2-channel versus multi-channel yet so when I start to make some comparisons I will see what my ears tell me. I tend to be a purist when I can and see your points mentioned.

DTB300 -
Some more valid points. As you stated, not all things are created equal so I am sure some sound better than others given the original intent of the engineer. Nice list of music, I will be expanding my listening range with my new system and will give a few of them a try.

In general I can see the benefits of both formats and how well they are executed. I will stay out of the emotional side of this discussion until I have formed my own opinion.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Bernard,

Now it sounds like you are making excuses. Don't listen to MCH, don't do it. It is something you will regret for the rest of your life. Don't listen to these people don't do it.:devil:

 

[DTB300]

I actually read your post after I posted mine. I found it interesting that you have muscian friends that like MCH. Most of the MCH guys at my local high end shop are muscians as well. I really think it is the experience of making music with other muscians all around them in the band that makes the MCH experience what it is.

Yeah we were posting at the same time.

Some of my friends like aggressive MCH, some do not. But I can see their points of instruments and singers all around and it feels like they are with the band. I do not play an instrument, so I prefer the "audience" type MCH stuff.

And again, I am not saying that 2 channel doesn't have its merits, because it does, but quite simply to dismiss MCH as gimicky without actually comparing or experiencing the difference well it is not one of the things that want to regret that I missed in life, especially if you already have a HT setup, listening to MCH is as easy as buying a Oppo Universal player for less than 2 hundred bucks. And again don't dismiss it because it is cheap, Oppo products perform way beyond their money and hey if you don't like it you can always use it to upconvert your standard DVDs to 1080P, they do that with the best of them, but on the other hand you may get multi-channel desease and then you are on another quest, looking for Mr. Goodbar or was it looking for a better sound byte, hey I am old and I have forgotten more than I can remember.

For SACD, I only listen to Classical in MCH, all the rest of the genre's I listen to in 2CH. For my setup, my MCH is nice sounding, but does not compare to my 2CH sound quality. I just could not afford the processor(s) I wanted (Theta, Meridian) so I settled on something better than main stream receivers.

I have an Oppo that I use for Movies and it is a great movie/DVD player. For music, considering the price, it is decent sounding. But when you are spoiled as I am with my player, the Oppo just sounds radio-ish when used for music.

But I would agree with you, for those interested, the Oppo is a great, cheap way to try out MCH. But then you need surround speakers, amps, processors, etc. A receiver can give you some ideas of the sound, but going the dedicated processor route with dedicated amps is a better way to go - IMO.

 

[Bernard]

Bernard,

Now it sounds like you are making excuses. Don't listen to MCH, don't do it. It is something you will regret for the rest of your life. Don't listen to these people don't do it.:devil:

Making excuses ? At the very start I said, "I don't have a closed mind, so convince me, you multi-channel aficionados."

Hey, maybe this is my chance to conduct the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra in Beethoven's Ninth! Now if only the musicians would obey my commands !!!

 

[mgakathereaper]

The latest update on delivery:

"The wood ordered was not up to spec and we had to order a new batch to build your speakers. They should ship next week and be delivered by the end of the week."

So it looks like no dice for this weekend. The waiting game continues...

 

[twich54]

Hey, maybe this is my chance to conduct the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra in Beethoven's Ninth!

Well at least it will fit on a 74 min Cd !!

 

[JMAUSGP]

DTB300,

Have you ever auditioned the McCormack MAP-1 or UDP-1? Not a lot of money, but when it comes to Surround Sound, WOW. When you listen to them you will understand why many have called Steve McCormack and audio engineering genius. On the MAP-1 preamp his Ambient Recovery Management system or ARM circuit is amazing. Cost is maybe 2 grand and the UDP-1 is quite the universal player that matches up with the MAP-1. Conrad now owns McCormack but the designs are still true to Steve's original intent. Just a thought next time you are out listening to something, if they have McCormack put on a two channel source and engage the ARM circuit with a good surround system, it is worth the experience.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Sorry to hear your CLX are not on the way. Unbelievably, I just got a call from my ML dealer and my new Descent i just came in with the CLX card. Looks like the Sunfire Signature EQ is moving upstairs. That pretty much shoots my weekend, I had lots of plans, but as we all know here, Music First!:music:

 

[mgakathereaper]

On the topic of Turntables...

I have done some preliminary research while waiting for my speakers and it looks like the VPI HRX Reference Turntable gets some pretty good reviews. Anyone here agree or disagree with this initial pick? Would I be better off starting at a lower price point VPI? It looks like the VPI Aries 3 also gets good reviews.

Just trying to determine options at this point.

 

[DTB300]

Have you ever auditioned the McCormack MAP-1 or UDP-1? Not a lot of money, but when it comes to Surround Sound, WOW. When you listen to them you will understand why many have called Steve McCormack and audio engineering genius.

Very familiar with the UDP-1 and Deluxe. I had compared my previous modded player against the UDP-1 or Deluxe (I cannot remember which one) at an audio store and they were very similar in sound to all of us there. CJ did the mods for the Deluxe if I am not mistaken. UDP was around $3.5k list I believe and the mods were an additional $600

On the MAP-1 preamp his Ambient Recovery Management system or ARM circuit is amazing. Cost is maybe 2 grand and the UDP-1 is quite the universal player that matches up with the MAP-1. Conrad now owns McCormack but the designs are still true to Steve's original intent. Just a thought next time you are out listening to something, if they have McCormack put on a two channel source and engage the ARM circuit with a good surround system, it is worth the experience.

There are some good sounding circuits for adding/enhancing sounds like the McCormack AMP and Meridian Tri-Field. While they can be nice, I am more of a purist and listen to what is presented either 2CH, 4CH, or 5CH.

 

[MiTT]

On the topic of Turntables...

I have done some preliminary research while waiting for my speakers and it looks like the VPI HRX Reference Turntable gets some pretty good reviews. Anyone here agree or disagree with this initial pick? Would I be better off starting at a lower price point VPI? It looks like the VPI Aries 3 also gets good reviews.

Just trying to determine options at this point.

I think the VPI's offer great value in general and are good solid "non-tweaker" turntables. Once you get the initial setup right you don't have to fiddle with it much, and even if you do want to adjust VTA you can do it on the fly with any of the JMW-12, 10 and new "Super" 9 arms. The Scout series offer an extraordinary upgrade path. I own an original Aries table and I love it. Dave (Twich54) has the Aries 3. If I had the coin though I'd seriously go after the HRX. It's articulate, has stunningly good deep bass and Industrial Design second to none in my book.

Cost no object I'd go after a DaVinci, Fleikert, TW Raven or Walker personally. If the sky was really the limit I'd look at Rockport or Continueum; but that's well into 6 figure territory.

Real world though - I'd be proud to own an HRX.

 

[twich54]

On the topic of Turntables...

It looks like the VPI Aries 3 also gets good reviews.

Just trying to determine options at this point.

first off....welcome !

As a Aries III owner (as Tim said earlier and noted in my system page) I can say without reservation it has met or exceeded all my expectations.

If I had "silly money" to spend I suppose I would buy the 'top of heap' SME table (30/2 I believe), but the reality is I will lovingly live with my Aries III for a long...long time !