New Bargain Martin Logan Theos in the House

[FertilityDoc]

I have had speaker upgraditis for about a year. I have had PSB Image 5T's for years. I had been perusing the AV boards for about a year. First heard the Martin Logan's at Magnolia and they were by far the best speakers in the store to my ears. I listen to an eclectic range of music including a lot of vocals and jazz. The soundstage is so expansive and I love the accuracy. I was considering some Internet only speakers specifically the Philharmonics or Salk speakers. It's always hard to buy something you can't audition. A pair of Theos showed up on Craigslist for $2300. They are less than a month old. I could not pass up the deal.

This is the resumption of an expensive hobby. I have an unbalanced front stage with the old PSB 9C as center. I still have PSB S50 as the surrounds and an old Def Tech Powerfield 15 sub. I only have only a Denon AVR 3312CI to drive these monsters. I will need a dedicated amp. The priority will be to find a Stage Center to get the fronts matching.

I am rediscovering the simple joys of 2 channel sound again. Played some reference FLAC files today. Oh my god! It sent a tingle down this 50 year old spine. I am surprised that even Internet radio sounds more than acceptable. I don't miss the the center channel given the soundstage of the ML's. I have to work on placement with the usual room restrictions. Eventually will need some absorption panels behind them.

I am now a Martin Logan advocate. I feel well on my way to musical Nirvana.

 

[dmusoke]

I have had speaker upgraditis for about a year. I have had PSB Image 5T's for years. I had been perusing the AV boards for about a year. First heard the Martin Logan's at Magnolia and they were by far the best speakers in the store to my ears. I listen to an eclectic range of music including a lot of vocals and jazz. The soundstage is so expansive andI love the accuracy. I was considering some Internet only speakers specifically the Philharmonics or Salk speakers. It's always hard to buy something you can't audition. A pair of Theos showed up on Craigslist for $2300. They are less than a month old. I could not pass up the deal.

This is they resumption of an expensive hobby. I have an unbalanced front stage with the old PSB 9C as center. I still have PSB S50’s as the surrounds and an old Def Tech Powerfield 15 sub. I only have only a Denon AVR 3312CI to drive these monsters. I will need a dedicated amp. The priority will be to find a Stage Center to get the fronts matching.

I am rediscovering the simple joys of 2 channel sound again. Played some reference FLAC files today. Oh my god! It sent a tingle down this 50 year old spine. I am surprised that even Internet radio sounds more than acceptable. I don't miss the the enter channel given the soundstage of the ML's. I have to work on placement with the usual room restrictions. Eventually will need some absorption panels behind them.

I am now a Martin Logan advocate. I feel well on my way to musical Nirvana.

A steal indeed! Congrats on your purchase. I just got the stage center about 2 weeks ago and must say its fabulous with my Spires. You can also get its excellent younger brother, the Motif.

 

[edwinr]

You will like the Theos. Don't panic about the Denon's ability to drive your speakers, it should do okay until you can afford to buy a decent power amp. I would keep the Denon and just add a power amp, driving it via the pre-outs. The Denon's pre-amp should be good enough. If money is short, consider an Anthem PVA-2 amplifier, or even the MCA-20 or A-2. Fantastic amps for the money. This will free up the Denon having to drive 5 speakers at once - it will only have to drive 3 speakers = more power from the Denon!

I have just ordered a pair of ML FX-2 as surrounds. The sensitivity of these speakers is very high, so a powerful amp isn't required. Replacing the PSB's with ML is the best option for you. I don't bother with a center channel.

 

[Guitarist]

Congrats! I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of my new my Theos this week. Like you, I'll be driving them with a receiver, a Sony STR 6400ES. According to ML's site, receivers can drive their speakers with no problems. I would, some day, like to replace the Sony with nice separates, but until then, I'm sure I'll get plenty of pleasure from my system.

 

[projectormovielover]

Wow $2300 for them would be a dream come true for me. I just paid $2000 for new vista's but theos for $300 more is a great price and if you ever upgrade you will probably end up with cash in your pocket from selling. Things will only get better once you buy a stage and some other esl towers for the rear . Oh and welcome

 

[beek]

Wow what a deal Enjoy.....! you dog

 

[FertilityDoc]

Audio System Upgrade Moving Along

All,

Thanks so much for some of the suggestions. I am so impressed with the musicality of the Theos speakers. All speakers have trade offs but for the kind of music I listen to, Jazz, Theater, Pop, Orchestral, Rock (not heavy metal) etc I listen to, the soundstage is amazing at this pricepoint. My Denon 3311CI is driving the speakers fine at the current time. I plan to add amplifier in the next few months. I do notice at low volumes (wife can complain), some of the imaging/detail is strained. Hopefully an amplifier can help with that. I have begun to read about amplifiers but it is a confusing and controversial subject. I am leaning towards the Emotiva. Can't beat the value. I have read about many other amplifiers, but any price point north of $1500 is a tough one. Still unsure if I will amplify only the 3 mains alone or get a 5-7 channel amp. This would give the ability to perhaps biwire the fronts. I am having a tougher time finding a great deal on an amplifier. They do seem to hold their value better than other AV components.

A Stage Center Channel speaker is now in the house. I found one through a dealer in Miami on flea bay. It has some minor cabinet issues on the back edge. Paid $1600. Between the bargain I found on the Theos ($2300) I paid a total of $3900 for the front stage. Not bad at all. It's an absolutely great speaker system at that price point.

My thoughts on the Stage Center? It has very good imaging. With my old PSB image 5T/Center 9C I found myself prefering to listen to music using the full Dolby 7.2 system. There are limitations to Center Stage. Movie dialogue has great clarity. A friend commented that he heard dialogue not noticed before. However when listening to music, the size of the Stage electrostat still is not sufficient enough to blend the front stage perfectly. There is a noticeable brightness which limits the naturalness of voices. When listening to music in stereo mode alone, the imaging of the Theos give the illusion of the voices coming from the center channel. So for movies, I'll be using multichannel sound but for music I prefer simple stereo.

Beyond the amplifier, I also hope to replace my old Def Tech Powerfield 15 subwoofer. Served me well for years. Adequate for movies, but too muddy and slow when paired with the Theos. I have a HSU VTF-2 MK3 in our summer home. It is a very accurate and tight sub. It is paired with Axiom M-80's and performs excellently. I like the idea of getting a HSU VTF-3 MK4. I like the ability to switch between ported and sealed modes. I am hoping this will pair well with the Theos. I hope to do this over the next 3-4 months.

The last thing to be replace will be my PSB S 50 surrounds (back and sides). They work fine, but one rear channel has a questionable woofer. Rarely noticeable but sometimes at loud volumes. Eventually hope to get the ML EM FX-2s. It will be hard to find a good deal on these.

This system upgrade has been a journey. I am a Martin Logan advocate. It will likely be the closest I can come to musical nirvana.

 

[tsv_1]

Welcome Doc! Your new Theos make for an outstanding centerpiece - a wonderful bargain and a great start to your ongoing system transformation. Note that there are mixed reviews in this forum re: Emotiva. Some folks have suffered lackluster customer support issues. Just a heads-up on that. The search utility will uncover gobs of gossip on that and so many other subjects.

Again - welcome to MLO!

 

[projectormovielover]

There are many quality amps for sale on audiogon. I have powered my ML Vista with an emotiva and it does not sound great. If you have to go brand new then why not try a Theta intrepid 5ch $1500 with a 3 yr warranty?

 

[JonFo]

Welcome and congrats on a nice score on some great speakers.

To get an even better match across the front stage, consider running a careful Audyssey calibration following the guidelines I list in this thread.

Also, putting some absorption behind the Stage center will improve its accuracy (and ineligibility) noticeably. Do this before the calibration.

 

[beek]

this is interesting a friend wants one of those for his stats.

 

[danvu]

All,

Thanks so much for some of the suggestions. I am so impressed with the musicality of the Theos speakers. All speakers have trade offs but for the kind of music I listen to, Jazz, Theater, Pop, Orchestral, Rock (not heavy metal) etc I listen to, the soundstage is amazing at this pricepoint. My Denon 3311CI is driving the speakers fine at the current time. I plan to add amplifier in the next few months. I do notice at low volumes (wife can complain), some of the imaging/detail is strained. Hopefully an amplifier can help with that. I have begun to read about amplifiers but it is a confusing and controversial subject. I am leaning towards the Emotiva. Can't beat the value. I have read about many other amplifiers, but any price point north of $1500 is a tough one. Still unsure if I will amplify only the 3 mains alone or get a 5-7 channel amp. This would give the ability to perhaps biwire the fronts. I am having a tougher time finding a great deal on an amplifier. They do seem to hold their value better than other AV components.

A Stage Center Channel speaker is now in the house. I found one through a dealer in Miami on flea bay. It has some minor cabinet issues on the back edge. Paid $1600. Between the bargain I found on the Theos ($2300) I paid a total of $3900 for the front stage. Not bad at all. It's an absolutely great speaker system at that price point.

My thoughts on the Stage Center? It has very good imaging. With my old PSB image 5T/Center 9C I found myself prefering to listen to music using the full Dolby 7.2 system. There are limitations to Center Stage. Movie dialogue has great clarity. A friend commented that he heard dialogue not noticed before. However when listening to music, the size of the Stage electrostat still is not sufficient enough to blend the front stage perfectly. There is a noticeable brightness which limits the naturalness of voices. When listening to music in stereo mode alone, the imaging of the Theos give the illusion of the voices coming from the center channel. So for movies, I'll be using multichannel sound but for music I prefer simple stereo.

Beyond the amplifier, I also hope to replace my old Def Tech Powerfield 15 subwoofer. Served me well for years. Adequate for movies, but too muddy and slow when paired with the Theos. I have a HSU VTF-2 MK3 in our summer home. It is a very accurate and tight sub. It is paired with Axiom M-80's and performs excellently. I like the idea of getting a HSU VTF-3 MK4. I like the ability to switch between ported and sealed modes. I am hoping this will pair well with the Theos. I hope to do this over the next 3-4 months.

The last thing to be replace will be my PSB S 50 surrounds (back and sides). They work fine, but one rear channel has a questionable woofer. Rarely noticeable but sometimes at loud volumes. Eventually hope to get the ML EM FX-2s. It will be hard to find a good deal on these.

This system upgrade has been a journey. I am a Martin Logan advocate. It will likely be the closest I can come to musical nirvana.

Unless you're going for their full blown XSP-1 amps, IMHO, I don't think you should go with Emotiva. I have 2 Emo UPA-1 amps that I used to drive the Vistas. The sound was pretty good but not great. While it's powerful to drive the Vista, I lost quite a lot of details and resolution and it sounded a bit thin/electronic. After switching from the UPA1's to the Monarchy SM70 PROs, which are class A amps, the sound now has more details, smoother, sweeter, weightier, more meat to the bones, and larger soundstage. The UPA1s now are doing HT duty in my home theater room.

I suggest, for a limited budget if you're not getting the XPA-1s, you should look into used market for class A amp(s) from Pass, BAT, etc. Or you can get a new pair of Monarchy Audio monoblocks like me, either the SM70 PRO ($1178/pair) or SE100 Delux MkII ($1358/pair). If you dont play your music too loud, get the SM70 PRO. Dont be fool by the small wattage of the SM70 PRO (only 120w@4ohm in bridge mode). It's more than enough to drive your Theos and I bet it'll give you a lot cleaner/clearer/sweeter/more real sound than any Emo amps. It's a fully balanced amp in monoblock config. You can also biamp with the SM70. It's the only amp under $600 that gives you all that flexibility. If you need more power, the SE100 is rate at 200w@4ohm but is single ended.

Anyway, welcome to MLO and good luck with your search for an amp.

 

[dmusoke]

Surely ... a fertility doctor is more than able to afford $$$$ for more capable amplifiers

 

[projectormovielover]

That's what I was thinking lol

 

[FertilityDoc]

Welcome and congrats on a nice score on some great speakers.

To get an even better match across the front stage, consider running a careful Audyssey calibration following the guidelines I list in this thread.

Also, putting some absorption behind the Stage center will improve its accuracy (and ineligibility) noticeably. Do this before the calibration.

Thanks for the advice. I am starting to plow through the Audyssey calibration. I am starting to look into sound absorption panels. Great tip!

 

[FertilityDoc]

Surely ... a fertility doctor is more than able to afford $$$$ for more capable amplifiers

Okay, you guys are killing me. Not with 3 kids in college and having to save for retirement, support the wife's bathroom renovation etc. As fathers we come in last place.....

 

[FertilityDoc]

Unless you're going for their full blown XSP-1 amps, IMHO, I don't think you should go with Emotiva. I have 2 Emo UPA-1 amps that I used to drive the Vistas. The sound was pretty good but not great. While it's powerful to drive the Vista, I lost quite a lot of details and resolution and it sounded a bit thin/electronic. After switching from the UPA1's to the Monarchy SM70 PROs, which are class A amps, the sound now has more details, smoother, sweeter, weightier, more meat to the bones, and larger soundstage. The UPA1s now are doing HT duty in my home theater room.

I suggest, for a limited budget if you're not getting the XPA-1s, you should look into used market for class A amp(s) from Pass, BAT, etc. Or you can get a new pair of Monarchy Audio monoblocks like me, either the SM70 PRO ($1178/pair) or SE100 Delux MkII ($1358/pair). If you dont play your music too loud, get the SM70 PRO. Dont be fool by the small wattage of the SM70 PRO (only 120w@4ohm in bridge mode). It's more than enough to drive your Theos and I bet it'll give you a lot cleaner/clearer/sweeter/more real sound than any Emo amps. It's a fully balanced amp in monoblock config. You can also biamp with the SM70. It's the only amp under $600 that gives you all that flexibility. If you need more power, the SE100 is rate at 200w@4ohm but is single ended.

Anyway, welcome to MLO and good luck with your search for an amp.

I have read a lot about amplifiers and yes my understanding is that Emotivas are controversial at best. Yes the price looks good but the reviews are too mixed for my comfort. Frankly don't want to go through the hassle of ordering it and returning it if it does not work out. As you all tell by know, I am a deal chaser. I have to find the right amp at a decent price. I am really trying to keep the amp at $1500 with a maximum of $2000. More than willing to purchase a used amp. I could go with a 3 channel amp but prefer 5 channel since I would like to try biamping. Based on the advice here, these are some of the brands I am considering

Anthem
Theta Intrepid
Aragon
Parasound
Wyred4Sound. Is a Class D amp okay or will I regret it?
Pass Labs. Hard to find and Expensive
Carey

I will continue to debate the Amp issue. Also looking for advice to make sure the amp I buy does not interfere in the Audyssey calibration. Next up is an HSU VTF 15H. Hope to order it in the next 2 weeks. Thanks for all the suggestions. Open to more suggestions/experiences with regards to Amplifiers

 

[projectormovielover]

One of our members here has had hands on with Emotiva and then bought these monoblocks and has had a great experience. So if your a bargain hunter then there is a half price deal going on the Monarchy sm70 pro mono's for $580 instead of the usual $980. Check out the reviews of when used in balanced mode, here is the link http://www.highendatlowcost.com/

You could get 4 of these for a knock your socks of setup

Here is a link of our member danvu's post I read today http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?13883-System-437-(Vista)

 

[danvu]

I have read a lot about amplifiers and yes my understanding is that Emotivas are controversial at best. Yes the price looks good but the reviews are too mixed for my comfort. Frankly don't want to go through the hassle of ordering it and returning it if it does not work out. As you all tell by know, I am a deal chaser. I have to find the right amp at a decent price. I am really trying to keep the amp at $1500 with a maximum of $2000. More than willing to purchase a used amp. I could go with a 3 channel amp but prefer 5 channel since I would like to try biamping. Based on the advice here, these are some of the brands I am considering

Anthem
Theta Intrepid
Aragon
Parasound
Wyred4Sound. Is a Class D amp okay or will I regret it?
Pass Labs. Hard to find and Expensive
Carey

I will continue to debate the Amp issue. Also looking for advice to make sure the amp I buy does not interfere in the Audyssey calibration. Next up is an HSU VTF 15H. Hope to order it in the next 2 weeks. Thanks for all the suggestions. Open to more suggestions/experiences with regards to Amplifiers

FertilityDoc,
I am a deal hunter too and to me, the Monarchy SM70 PRO is the perfect one that fits the bills. My budget for amp(s) was also $1K - $2K. It's a very versatile amp as you can see on Monarchy site/reviews and if you dont want any hassle of getting a used equipment then at $588 a piece new, it's a bargain. Like projectormovielover suggested, if you can stretch your budget a bit over $2K (and have enough outlets) and be able to get 4 SM70 PRO's to biamp (two amps per speaker), you'll have an overkill stereo system that will blow you away with top notch sound quality. Otherwise, just get two of them and you can still biamp in monoblock/bridge mode using both pairs of binding post (two amp sections) on one amp for one SM70 per speaker. Unless you have a very big room, that setup would give you enough power for a mid to large size room. My room is an odd shape one about the size of a 13x13 and I never turn the volume pass 11 o'clock (which is insanely loud for me) on my preamp, which has a 12db gain.

If you dont consider Monarchy at all then there are several good class A amps on agon like this one that you can try:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/bat-balanced-audio-technology-vk-250-amplifier--3

So I reread your threads and am a bit confused so correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Sounds like you want to improve 2 channel music listening experience but want to get a multi-channel (3 or 5) amp? If you want to get better sound quality for two channel music, please get a stereo amp or, even better, monoblocks for channel/power supply separation and imaging/sound stage improvement. A multi channel amp is not designed for 2 channel music, more for home theater, and hence will not give you as good sound quality as a stereo or mono amp would with all the channel cross talk and shared power supply. Imaging is not as focused. Instruments separation is not as cleared. Sound stage is smaller and even dynamics are affected.

2. If I dont understand wrong, your intention is to get a multichannel amp and then biamp the speakers using the amp and the amp sections of the Denon receiver? If that is true, I think you have got off to the wrong path for a two channel system setup. Let say you got an amp with very good sound quality and biamped the speakers with the receiver's amp driving the panels and the amp driving the woofers, there would be several issues. First, there would be likely a gain unmatch. Second, you would have unmatched sound characteristics between the receiver and the amp; for example, receiver's on the warm side and the amp's more neutral or on the bright side. Even if you went thru all the hassles, chose carefully and got an amp that resolved the 2 above issues, it would be likely that the sound quality of your receiver could not match the sound quality of your amp and so degrade the overall sound quality. Isn't that the whole point of getting another amp is to improve the sound quality? Then why pairing a so so one with a good one and improve only half way?

If you just want to get a separate amp and biamp just to get more power and improve dynamics but dont care much about 2 channel sound quality then go ahead and get a multi channel amp and biamp together with the receiver. Just my 2 cents . I'm only trying point out a few problems that I see here to help you out with your decision.

 

[Spike]

Hi Dan,
I think the Doc (OP) wants to bi-amp the Theos by using 2 channels of the 5-channel amp per speaker. Basically, he's using the 5-channel amplifier for his front channels. 2 channels to biamp the left Theos, 2 for the right one, and 1 for center. If this is the case AND you're also considering monobloc configuration, then the closest thing, currently listed on A'gon is this Proceed AMP5:
Proceed AMP-5 listing

Modular design, down to a dedicated toroidal transformer for each channel!

FertilityDoc,
More info please! How big is your room? Do you listen at loud or moderate levels? How critical are you with regards to home-theater vs stereo quality?