New Bargain Martin Logan Theos in the House

[FertilityDoc]

Not to bore you all completely

Again, thanks to all who responded generously with their time and expertise....it is truly appreciated. There is quite a deep base of knowledge here! Feel fortunate to have had the help.

The system is moving along. I just ordered the new subwoofer yesterday. I bought the HSU VTF-15H sub. I have a HSU sub in a condo. I really like the quality. I read about the JL subs but boy the price points goes into the stratosphere quickly. The VTF-15H is a compromise. The ULS-15 sub would have been more musical with less distorsion but I do like the sub for the movies. I liked the idea of having a sub where I can switch between ported and sealed modes. This will be the largest sub I have owned. The sub is very "tweakable" and hopefully I can get it to blend perfectly with the Theos. As you can all see from above, I am a bargain hunter. My Denon 3311CI is refurbished. I got deals on the Theos and Center Stage speakers. This is a full price purchase without a discount. I could have found a used one if I hunted for some time but HSU subs are such a bargain to begin with. The price/value ratio on these products is excellent.

I continue to look at various amps. I peruse Craigs List, Audiogon and Ebay daily. I know I'll hopefully find a killer deal on an amp out of my price range. If not I may break down and get 2 Emotiva monoblocks...yes I do understand the controversy.

I have the Denon amp hooked up via ethernet to my office computer server. You have to love AirPlay. It is such a pleasure to sit down with the Ipad and control the Playlists. Most are MP-3's unfortunately. I do have some Flac files and converted some to Apples ALAC files so I can get them into iTunes. I have over 10,000 music files. Does anyone here remember the newserver days?

I want to post some photos of the humble home theater but it is a mess right now. My son came home from college with furniture etc. My other son is a percussionist in high school, graduating this year. I can't wait to get all the clutter out of there. Should happen within a month and I will post photos.

The wife was out today and I was listening at louder levels around the 5 dB range on the Denon receiver. I am usually listening at lower volumes. I was not as pleased with overall sound and found the speakers fatiguing. This seems to be do to wall/screen reflections. I have to start getting some sound treatments around the room. That is next on my list besides the amp issue.

It has been a lot of fun updating everything. And again thanks to all for the advice.

 

[Bernard]

Doc,

Sorting out cables is (relatively) easy. After doing some reading to identify potential candidates, you can borrow some from The Cable Company to try them in your own system. And yes, this is another can of worms. We've had lots of cable discussions here.

You may want to also try canuckaudiomart for deals.

 

[Spike]

Hi Doc,

It is almost impossible to demo them. Even if I go to an audio store in the area, the selection will be very limited. I have to rely on internet reviews etc to get me in the right ballpark.

May I suggest to call out to fellow Logan owners in the Chicago area where you can come by and audition their systems. This way, you'll learn first hand about each system based on the owner's preference and how they've evolved. You'll also learn what did not work and how the owners go about picking their pieces to build a system.

I was not as pleased with overall sound and found the speakers fatiguing.

"Fatigue" and "ear bleeds" are usual suspects of amplifiers being pushed beyond their comfort zone, or even venturing into clipping territory.

Spike

 

[danvu]

"Fatigue" and "ear bleeds" are usual suspects of amplifiers being pushed beyond their comfort zone, or even venturing into clipping territory.

Yup, I'm with Spike on this. It's not the walls (yet). It's your receiver that is running out of steam at high volume. Like I said in my previous post, ML ESL speakers are harder to drive with broad impedance swing and your receiver doesn't even have published 4ohm rating so likely that it can't handle the loads at high volume.

I continue to look at various amps. I peruse Craigs List, Audiogon and Ebay daily. I know I'll hopefully find a killer deal on an amp out of my price range. If not I may break down and get 2 Emotiva monoblocks...yes I do understand the controversy.

I really want to steer you away from getting Emotiva amps if possible. But if you insist on getting the XPA-1's, I assume, and you're a deal hunter and can wait until Oct-Nov, they'll have a year end sale and you can get some good deals on their products. Last year, they had all prods on sale and the XPA-1 was $1700/pair. They also gave good prices on their B-stocks too. You said you're waiting for a killer deal on an amp, what other brand(s)/model(s) do you already have in mind or narrow down to?

 

[runnin17]

I am going to completely disagree with danvu about the Emotiva monoblocks. As I said before, I have the XPA-1's driving Spires and they are very, very good.

Nothing anyone will say can simulate the real experience of actually hearing equipment, so please take every opinion on this site with a huge grain of salt.

 

[FertilityDoc]

Doc,

Sorting out cables is (relatively) easy. After doing some reading to identify potential candidates, you can borrow some from The Cable Company to try them in your own system. And yes, this is another can of worms. We've had lots of cable discussions here.

You may want to also try canuckaudiomart for deals.

Bernard,

The cables and wall treatments will be some of the last steps. My rack is in the back of the room. I have a built in cabinet with plenty of room for the amplifiers. I will have to watch the outlets. I have a total of 4. The back of the cabinet opens into a storage room. I have plenty of wire access. The wire runs for the biamping of about 25 ft are already going to front of the room. I will look at canuckaudiomart.

 

[FertilityDoc]

Hi Doc,

May I suggest to call out to fellow Logan owners in the Chicago area where you can come by and audition their systems. This way, you'll learn first hand about each system based on the owner's preference and how they've evolved. You'll also learn what did not work and how the owners go about picking their pieces to build a system.


"Fatigue" and "ear bleeds" are usual suspects of amplifiers being pushed beyond their comfort zone, or even venturing into clipping territory.

Spike

Spike,

I will try to seek out some others in the Chicago area. It is so hard to demo products many of which are at such a high end, you cannot find them in the bricks and mortars store. There is The Little Guys store close to my home. I may check them out to see which products they offer.

With regards to the Fatigue and Ear Bleeds.....Bingo.....I should not have automatically attributed it to the room acoustics. Now it makes sense to me. Makes me want the new amp even more!

 

[FertilityDoc]

Dan,

Thanks for the tip on why the speakers are fatiguing. It now makes sense to me. For some reason, I seem to choose low impedence speakers!. My Axioms in my condo are 4 ohms. I have a Denon 2808 enclosed in a small space. I had to worry about the receiver overheating in the closed space while driving the Axioms. And yes I know the Denon's do not have a 4 ohm rating. Makes me excited to get a real amp and the improvement I may realize with the Theos.

Here is my current list of desired amps in no particular order mostly based on the recommendations here

1. Roger Sanders Mono ESLs. It's likely not going to happen. It would take a used deal. Hey a guy needs to dream....
2. Pass Labs. The reviews are mostly positive
3. Bryston 7B ST's. There do seem to be some deals on these. I continue to look at them
4. Wyred4Sound. Yes they are Class D amplifiers and I am aware of the controversy. They do seem to garner a lot of good reviews
5. BAT amps. I learned that from the recommendation here
6. Carey Amps. Seem to get good reviews overall
7. Dreadnaughts
8. Aragon
9. Emotiva XPA-1. My eyes are wide open on these. Very controversial. I have read a lot of reviews in multiple places. I feel I have a balanced view of them. My take is that the reviews of the monoblocks are more favorable than the multichannel amps. If I buy these I'll either wait for a sail or look for used ones. Interestingly they seem to sell used for close to retail

It's a huge list. Probably too long. It does allow me to look widely for a deal. Again thanks to all for sharing their opinions. The subject of amplifiers is one with a lot of controversy and I respect all the advice offered. I will share my observations once this is all put together. It's not just the destination. It's the journey.

Kevin

 

[Bernard]

Doesn't Roger Sanders still offer $500 off the price of his amps to members of this forum? IIRC someone here recently got that deal.

Doc, if interested you should PM Angela.

 

[danvu]

1. Roger Sanders Mono ESLs. It's likely not going to happen. It would take a used deal. Hey a guy needs to dream....
2. Pass Labs. The reviews are mostly positive
3. Bryston 7B ST's. There do seem to be some deals on these. I continue to look at them
4. Wyred4Sound. Yes they are Class D amplifiers and I am aware of the controversy. They do seem to garner a lot of good reviews
5. BAT amps. I learned that from the recommendation here
6. Carey Amps. Seem to get good reviews overall
7. Dreadnaughts
8. Aragon
9. Emotiva XPA-1. My eyes are wide open on these. Very controversial. I have read a lot of reviews in multiple places. I feel I have a balanced view of them. My take is that the reviews of the monoblocks are more favorable than the multichannel amps. If I buy these I'll either wait for a sail or look for used ones. Interestingly they seem to sell used for close to retail

It's a huge list. Probably too long. It does allow me to look widely for a deal. Again thanks to all for sharing their opinions. The subject of amplifiers is one with a lot of controversy and I respect all the advice offered. I will share my observations once this is all put together. It's not just the destination. It's the journey.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,
That's a good long list, which is good. Since you have many choices, you probably wouldn't have to wait long for a great deal on one of them.

Regarding #4, I have read a lot of good reviews on that too (detail, tight bass, open, etc.) and almost pulled the trigger but one review said that the sound characteristic was on the cool/bright side which was not what I was looking for.

On #9, I know it's controversial and runnin17 thinks I was wrong trying to persuade you not to get it. He has his reason, which is it's working well for him in his system, and I respect that. In fact, I was once considering the XPA-1 and still have respect for the amp. But I have my reasons that I believe why you shouldn't get the XPA-1:

1. You have all Denon receivers which are on the warm side of the sound spectrum so I think you prefer warm and sweet sounding amp.

2. I have Emotiva's UPA-1 amps which are probably the warmer/sweeter/more musical amp among their amps even though they have similar sound characteristic (this is what I read from reviews/feedback/comparison of UPA-1 vs XPA-2). And I also read that the XPA-1, while it was much more dynamic, detail, life-like, give big sound stage, better resolution and bass control, was also brighter than the UPA-1. And to my ear, compared to the Monarchy SM70 PRO, the UPA-1 still has the bright, cold, mechanical sound of solid state. The Monarchy has a much more organic, sweet, smooth, more body sound being highly biased into class A and simple circuitry and I can listen for long hours without having ear fatigue, which I do have a bit with the UPA-1 though not too bad. Note that I'm not talking about detail and resolution and dynamics here as I truly believe that the XPA-1 has. So from my assumption of your preference above, I'm just afraid that it might not be your cup of tea.

3. I remember you mentioned in one of your post earlier that you didn't want to deal with the hassle of returning if you dont like an amp and the XPA-1 is a mammoth in size. If you didn't like its sound and had to return two of them, it would be a big hassle. I'm not trying to tell you not to buy the XPA-1 but it seems to me like it's not the type of sound you would prefer so you must consider carefully if you want avoid the returning hassle. But if my assumption is wrong or returning is not a problem for you, by all means, get the XPA-1s and try them in your home. If you can wait until Oct-Nov, you can even get a better deal on them and they are truly a bargain.

Other amp brands, I've never had experience with them so no comments. However, it seems to me that you have different types of sounding amps on your list. IMHO and to my ears, ML ESL speakers, being on the bright side, seem to pair better with tube amps and warmer sounding solid state amps, which are mostly class A with minimal gain stages. So you might want to nail down what kind of sounding amp you prefer first. Try to audition at least one or two amps on your list to hear how they sound and see how you like them. Then read as much as you can on how those compare to others on your list to have a sense of how others sound. Then, you can add on other pros and cons of each amp to decide each one is the best for you. But this is just me and my method of choosing an amp with a limited budget and can't afford to switch out components frequently. If you can afford switching, it's a different story

 

[runnin17]

Danvu,

If you don't even own the XPA-1's then how can you comment on them at all. Your post is full of assumptions. You are trying to figure out what the XPA-1's will sound like and you own the UPA-1's?????? How does that even make sense.

If you haven't heard them then don't try to give people advice.

Doc,
Just keep an open mind and make sure you listen to everything.

 

[danvu]

Danvu,

If you don't even own the XPA-1's then how can you comment on them at all. Your post is full of assumptions. You are trying to figure out what the XPA-1's will sound like and you own the UPA-1's?????? How does that even make sense.

If you haven't heard them then don't try to give people advice.

Doc,
Just keep an open mind and make sure you listen to everything.

Yes, Doc. Like runnin17 said, this is just my assumption based on my guess of your taste for sound and what I've read on many forums. I'm not trying to advise you as I'm also new to this hobby, still learning and dont think I have enough experience with different expensive components to qualify to do so. Just trying to share my limited experience, my knowledge through reading and my opinion with you. Of course, I can be wrong so I welcome other members to correct me. If you can afford auditioning different amps, try as many as you can. I dont own XPA-1, but from hearing the sound of UPA-1 and reading, I just didnt want to risk ordering them and not like them and have to return. But that's just me, not being able to afford trying different amps. I like Emotiva prods too. Just dont think their amps' sound would be what I want for my stereo system. Just want to raise the awareness that if, and only if, you have the same taste for sound like me (warm, organic and sweet vocal, smooth highs) then it MIGHT not be the amp for you. Who knows, you might get the XPA-1s and like them so much and wont return them and call it the end of your search

 

[FertilityDoc]

Hi Kevin,
That's a good long list, which is good. Since you have many choices, you probably wouldn't have to wait long for a great deal on one of them.

Regarding #4, I have read a lot of good reviews on that too (detail, tight bass, open, etc.) and almost pulled the trigger but one review said that the sound characteristic was on the cool/bright side which was not what I was looking for.

On #9, I know it's controversial and runnin17 thinks I was wrong trying to persuade you not to get it. He has his reason, which is it's working well for him in his system, and I respect that. In fact, I was once considering the XPA-1 and still have respect for the amp. But I have my reasons that I believe why you shouldn't get the XPA-1:

1. You have all Denon receivers which are on the warm side of the sound spectrum so I think you prefer warm and sweet sounding amp.

2. I have Emotiva's UPA-1 amps which are probably the warmer/sweeter/more musical amp among their amps even though they have similar sound characteristic (this is what I read from reviews/feedback/comparison of UPA-1 vs XPA-2). And I also read that the XPA-1, while it was much more dynamic, detail, life-like, give big sound stage, better resolution and bass control, was also brighter than the UPA-1. And to my ear, compared to the Monarchy SM70 PRO, the UPA-1 still has the bright, cold, mechanical sound of solid state. The Monarchy has a much more organic, sweet, smooth, more body sound being highly biased into class A and simple circuitry and I can listen for long hours without having ear fatigue, which I do have a bit with the UPA-1 though not too bad. Note that I'm not talking about detail and resolution and dynamics here as I truly believe that the XPA-1 has. So from my assumption of your preference above, I'm just afraid that it might not be your cup of tea.

3. I remember you mentioned in one of your post earlier that you didn't want to deal with the hassle of returning if you dont like an amp and the XPA-1 is a mammoth in size. If you didn't like its sound and had to return two of them, it would be a big hassle. I'm not trying to tell you not to buy the XPA-1 but it seems to me like it's not the type of sound you would prefer so you must consider carefully if you want avoid the returning hassle. But if my assumption is wrong or returning is not a problem for you, by all means, get the XPA-1s and try them in your home. If you can wait until Oct-Nov, you can even get a better deal on them and they are truly a bargain.

Other amp brands, I've never had experience with them so no comments. However, it seems to me that you have different types of sounding amps on your list. IMHO and to my ears, ML ESL speakers, being on the bright side, seem to pair better with tube amps and warmer sounding solid state amps, which are mostly class A with minimal gain stages. So you might want to nail down what kind of sounding amp you prefer first. Try to audition at least one or two amps on your list to hear how they sound and see how you like them. Then read as much as you can on how those compare to others on your list to have a sense of how others sound. Then, you can add on other pros and cons of each amp to decide each one is the best for you. But this is just me and my method of choosing an amp with a limited budget and can't afford to switch out components frequently. If you can afford switching, it's a different story

Dan,

Thanks again for sharing your experience and perspective. With regards to the Denon receiver, I chose it mainly due to it's feature set and not necessarily for it's musical characteristics. As I mentioned Apple Airlplay is a great feature. On the Denon it works much better than the DNLA functionality. I have a cheap Onkyo receiver in my living room and frankly it's DNLA implementation is better. I can't speak highly enough of the Martin Logan speakers. For my musical tastes, it is as close to a perfect speaker as I will likely ever have. That said, if there are any sonic tendencies, brightness is one of them. I understand your concern regarding the matching of bright speakers with a bright amplifier. My other observation is that the speaker sonic characteristics are greatly source dependent. The Emotiva might be a bright amplifier but I suspect I would still be able to get the improved dynamics. I also hope to tame the Martin Logan brightness with a capable subwoofer and appropriate calibration. On a side note, I was watching a YouTube review of some Emotiva amps. Frankly I could detect the brightness through the computer speakers in the Video! Maybe not the best comparison (through computer speakers) but it was an interesting observation. Sometimes the online reviews can drive you crazy with conflicting information. Some reviews have called the XPA-1 bright and others describe a warm sound. Sheeessh! So yes, any amp will have to judged by how it sounds in my system with the sonic characteristics of my equipment and listening room.

I still continue to read and learn more regarding the tonal characteristics of the different amplifier brands. I am nowhere near a decision yet. I keep checking Craiglist, Flea Bay, Audiogon etc daily. Eventually an opporunity will present itself. I am excited by the idea of having amp. It is going to get met a musical experience I have not experienced before.

 

[danvu]

Dan,

Thanks again for sharing your experience and perspective. With regards to the Denon receiver, I chose it mainly due to it's feature set and not necessarily for it's musical characteristics. As I mentioned Apple Airlplay is a great feature. On the Denon it works much better than the DNLA functionality. I have a cheap Onkyo receiver in my living room and frankly it's DNLA implementation is better. I can't speak highly enough of the Martin Logan speakers. For my musical tastes, it is as close to a perfect speaker as I will likely ever have. That said, if there are any sonic tendencies, brightness is one of them. I understand your concern regarding the matching of bright speakers with a bright amplifier. My other observation is that the speaker sonic characteristics are greatly source dependent. The Emotiva might be a bright amplifier but I suspect I would still be able to get the improved dynamics. I also hope to tame the Martin Logan brightness with a capable subwoofer and appropriate calibration. On a side note, I was watching a YouTube review of some Emotiva amps. Frankly I could detect the brightness through the computer speakers in the Video! Maybe not the best comparison (through computer speakers) but it was an interesting observation. Sometimes the online reviews can drive you crazy with conflicting information. Some reviews have called the XPA-1 bright and others describe a warm sound. Sheeessh! So yes, any amp will have to judged by how it sounds in my system with the sonic characteristics of my equipment and listening room.

I still continue to read and learn more regarding the tonal characteristics of the different amplifier brands. I am nowhere near a decision yet. I keep checking Craiglist, Flea Bay, Audiogon etc daily. Eventually an opporunity will present itself. I am excited by the idea of having amp. It is going to get met a musical experience I have not experienced before.

Yeah, I read the same thing and saw/heard the same thing on YouTube. I, however, used a good headphone set to listen to the amp on YouTube and I did hear the brightness, but i wouldn't totally conclude that the brightness is from the amp. It might be the low quality microphone from people's cameras/camcorders that caused the brightness/harshness. I guess people describe its tonal char. differently maybe because they used their previous amp' sound to compare it to. If it was a bright one, they'd think it's warm; and vice versa. So all I can say is, my UPA-1 is brighter than an upper end Denon receiver and my Harman Kardon receivers. And since the UPA-1 is warmer than other Emotiva amps including the XPA-1, the XPA-1 is a bright amp TO ME. Hey, but if you dont mind trying it at your home, order and let me know what you think . And you're right, you might be able to use the Denon's room eq/caliberation to tame the brightness of the XPA-1. I'm very interested to hear more opinions on this amp.

 

[churchill]

Dan,

Thanks again for sharing your experience and perspective. That said, if there are any sonic tendencies, brightness is one of them. I understand your concern regarding the matching of bright speakers with a bright amplifier. My other observation is that the speaker sonic characteristics are greatly source dependent. The Emotiva might be a bright amplifier but I suspect I would still be able to get the improved dynamics. I also hope to tame the Martin Logan brightness with a capable subwoofer and appropriate calibration.

I suspect your brightness issue is more room related then equipment related. My room was extremely bright until I added some panels and traps. Panels will make a bigger difference on the sound then changing an amplifier!

 

[runnin17]

Danvu, again if you haven't heard the XPA-1 stop calling it a bright amplifier. If you want a more professional review of the XPA series amps then read the stereophile review of the XPA-2.

IMO the XPA-1 amp is a very neutral amp. Any brightness that may have been present was easily corrected with proper calibration. Reading reviews and opinions will only get you so far. The fact you are listening to YouTube videos and trying to form opinions from that just shows that you don't fully understand what mean by listening to the equipment.

If you are unwilling to demo the equipment then I am going to steer you away from emotiva.

 

[FertilityDoc]

All,

Again thanks to all for sharing their observations. Emotiva seems to be one of those hot button subjects. I find it interesting that there is a relative lower number of mainstream audiophile publication reviews. Of course the publications may have other motives for limiting the reviews.

I did receive my HSU VTF-15H this Friday. It is a beast. Barely fits under the projection screen of my theater. Compared to my old Def Tech PF 15 is so refined. I can't complain. I have had that subwoofer since about 1996. It lasted all that time. Indeed the company's service was impeccable. I called them once to replace the woofer after one of my sons used it as a toe hold to climb on. They actually sent out a new woofer free of charge even after I explained the situation. Talk about going above and beyond the usual customer service. I ran Audyssey again. I was not happy with the results. I need to find time to run it again. The sound from my Theos was overly bright compared to the prior calibration with the Def Tech. The crossover frequency for the SW was set at 40 Hz by Audyssey. The Theos became unnaturally bright and vocals were not the usual ML nirvana. tarted to tweak the settings maually. I immediately found that setting the crossover frequency to 60 immediately improved things. At 80 Hz the vocal were good but the sound was muddied and lacked good dynamic range. I have left the settings at 60 Hz for now. Overly I am very happy with the HSU VTF-15H. I like it's tweakability function. I will continue to play with it to get the settings to a level consistent with my personal taste.

Again, I appreciate everone's input on the Amp selection. I am hopeful that no matter which one I choose, I'll be able to tweak the calibration to settings best for the individual amp characteristics. I may eventually demo the Emotiva XPA-1. It does represent a solid value proposition. Every reviewer agrees with that. Compared to speaker choice, amps yield a comparatively lower improvement in sound. I have to consider the cost issue in this decision. So the search for a suitable used amp continues. If I cannot identify a great deal, I may wait for a potential Emotiva 4th of July sale.

 

[danvu]

How are the XPA-1's working out for you, Doc?

 

[cocobob]

Do not think all amps are the same and they have no effect on the final sound.Their are big differences in amps.I agree their is a limit on where more money on a amp can be a waste in the total sound.But do not think a emotiva can even compete with some of the bigger names in amps.Their is a reason good amps cost more due to the price of real transfomers and other parts.They do make a difference.You really get what you pay for in amps up to a point where the absurd kicks in.Bryston is one of my favorite budget amps.

 

[Guitarist]

I don't see any tube amps on that list. I'm considering a VTL ST 150 (150 wpc). Any thoughts on tube amps with ML? I have the Theos, too, and a Motif center. I'd probably use a VTL monoblock for it.