New Bargain Martin Logan Theos in the House

[danvu]

yeah, I reread Doc's post and think I understood his statement wrong. If he is still considering a multi-channel amp, then at least he should get one with modular design. Nevertheless, even modular design amp cannot compete with a dual mono stereo amp or monoblocks, too little space to add good size power supply section and heat sink for all channels and forget about class A design.

 

[runnin17]

If you decide to go with Emotiva I will second the couple of posts about the XPA-1 monoblocks. I use them to drive my Spires and I am very, very pleased. Are there better amps out there, hell yes, but probably not for the money. I will also be honest and say that I would steer clear of the other Emotiva offerings. They are not bad products, but they are not as impressive as the XPA-1 monoblocks.

 

[FertilityDoc]

FertilityDoc,
I am a deal hunter too and to me, the Monarchy SM70 PRO is the perfect one that fits the bills. My budget for amp(s) was also $1K - $2K. It's a very versatile amp as you can see on Monarchy site/reviews and if you dont want any hassle of getting a used equipment then at $588 a piece new, it's a bargain. Like projectormovielover suggested, if you can stretch your budget a bit over $2K (and have enough outlets) and be able to get 4 SM70 PRO's to biamp (two amps per speaker), you'll have an overkill stereo system that will blow you away with top notch sound quality. Otherwise, just get two of them and you can still biamp in monoblock/bridge mode using both pairs of binding post (two amp sections) on one amp for one SM70 per speaker. Unless you have a very big room, that setup would give you enough power for a mid to large size room. My room is an odd shape one about the size of a 13x13 and I never turn the volume pass 11 o'clock (which is insanely loud for me) on my preamp, which has a 12db gain.

If you dont consider Monarchy at all then there are several good class A amps on agon like this one that you can try:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/bat-balanced-audio-technology-vk-250-amplifier--3

So I reread your threads and am a bit confused so correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Sounds like you want to improve 2 channel music listening experience but want to get a multi-channel (3 or 5) amp? If you want to get better sound quality for two channel music, please get a stereo amp or, even better, monoblocks for channel/power supply separation and imaging/sound stage improvement. A multi channel amp is not designed for 2 channel music, more for home theater, and hence will not give you as good sound quality as a stereo or mono amp would with all the channel cross talk and shared power supply. Imaging is not as focused. Instruments separation is not as cleared. Sound stage is smaller and even dynamics are affected.

2. If I dont understand wrong, your intention is to get a multichannel amp and then biamp the speakers using the amp and the amp sections of the Denon receiver? If that is true, I think you have got off to the wrong path for a two channel system setup. Let say you got an amp with very good sound quality and biamped the speakers with the receiver's amp driving the panels and the amp driving the woofers, there would be several issues. First, there would be likely a gain unmatch. Second, you would have unmatched sound characteristics between the receiver and the amp; for example, receiver's on the warm side and the amp's more neutral or on the bright side. Even if you went thru all the hassles, chose carefully and got an amp that resolved the 2 above issues, it would be likely that the sound quality of your receiver could not match the sound quality of your amp and so degrade the overall sound quality. Isn't that the whole point of getting another amp is to improve the sound quality? Then why pairing a so so one with a good one and improve only half way?

If you just want to get a separate amp and biamp just to get more power and improve dynamics but dont care much about 2 channel sound quality then go ahead and get a multi channel amp and biamp together with the receiver. Just my 2 cents . I'm only trying point out a few problems that I see here to help you out with your decision.

Thanks to all for sharing your expertise. I have 2 goals for the sound system. I would say I am using it 50/50 for movies & Music. The room is not that large. It is about 21 x 18 feet. The main listening position is only about 5 feet from the front speakers. I want to get the most out the front soundstage that I can. In a perfect world I'd like to have 5 channels. Two for biamping the front mains and one for the center channel. Clarity and detail are important across the soundstage when watching movies. I am less concerned about the surrounds at this point. It sounds like a 5 channel amp will lead to significant compromise when listening to music. I frankly had not realized that. I was hoping a high quality amp could accomplish both. If I have to choose, the 2 channel sound quality is a priority. I am not that critical when watching movies.

I did look at the Monarchy SM70 PRO's. The Emotiva monoblocks are too rich for my budget at this time. The only concern I have regarding the SM70 PRO's are due to my own misconceptions (And yes I am admitting that). The output is 125W nonbridged. That is the same as my current Denon 3311CI. Yes I understand it is about the quality of the Amps but if were to use biamping, that really cuts down on the power. It's not that I am shaking the house, but I want to make sure I have good imaging at low volumes (when the wife is home). Will I have a problem with this lower power rating? Will they match well when using the Denon 3311CI as the preamp?

I also did see the Proceed 5 channel amp on Audiogon. I have not read a lot about this brand. Does anyone have any experience with it?

I did see a pair of Martin Logan EM FX2 surrounds on flea bay today for $899 + $25 shipping. They are usually $649 each. My priorities are on the amp and subwoofer now. Just in case someone else is looking for these.

Thanks to all for taking the time to respond and but up with ramblings. When all is done and finished, I'll post some photos of the entire setup

 

[danvu]

The only concern I have regarding the SM70 PRO's are due to my own misconceptions (And yes I am admitting that). The output is 125W nonbridged. That is the same as my current Denon 3311CI. Yes I understand it is about the quality of the Amps but if were to use biamping, that really cuts down on the power. It's not that I am shaking the house, but I want to make sure I have good imaging at low volumes (when the wife is home). Will I have a problem with this lower power rating? Will they match well when using the Denon 3311CI as the preamp?

Let me clarify your concerns on the SM70 PRO.
1. The power rating is 120w@4ohm in bridge/monoblock mode. Nonbridge mode (means you use it as a stereo amp) gives you 40w/channel. If you biamp in bridge mode, you get 80w (40w + 40w) total. I'm actually biamping my speakers and willing to give up that 40w diff in power. The difference between 80w and 120w is not that much and I prefer better clarity and sound quality from biamping. I tried single pair of binding posts to get the full power (120w) and biwired and it's a tad more powerful but I also noticed the sound was not as clear as biamping mode.

2. You think that the amp power rating is about the same as your receiver's and why should you get it right? First of all, the 125w per channel of the receiver doesn't say 'all channels driven at full bandwidth'. That is just individual channel power rating or at best two channels driven rating. So when all channels are driven...well...you do the math . Also, it doesn't have a 4ohm rating in its spec so it's probably not very stable or not ideal for 4ohm speakers. On the other hand, the SM70 PRO spec states that it's stable into 3ohm and tolerates 2ohm dipping so driving your Theos is no problems. And as you know, ESL speakers have a broad range of impedance.

3. That just power rating. Now onto power supply section. The SM70 PRO each has a 450VA toroidal transformer and 60KuF of capacitance of reserved power to tap on whenever the music demands. It also has a total of 8 output devices with ultra high speed MOSFETS, which operate into Giga Hertz so it's a very fast amp. Looking at your receiver spec, what do they tell you? Nothing. Like all typical receivers, it has a solid/laminated core transformer (but Denon probably has a better size one) that is shared by all channels. I bet the secondary capacitance is around 30-40KuF for all channels. So two SM70 PROs would totally outgun the receiver in everything.

4. You concern about the imaging at low volumes. Actually, this is where the SM70 PRO shines. I would worry more about imaging when you play it loud than at low volume. I have a baby so most of the time I play at low volume and trust me, it gives a lot more clarity, precise imaging than my Emo UPA-1 does. At low volume, I can hear every detail, nuance, and the sound stage is no way small, extends beyond the speakers.

5. Regarding using the receiver as preamp, since it's a pretty neutral amp to me with sweet mid range and smooth highs, it should output whatever your preamp feeds it but with no harshness. If you like the current sound of your receiver then adding the amps would just make it better. I think it would match well with your Denon. However, in the long term, you should still invest in a good stereo preamp with ht bypass feature to take your music listening experience to the next level.

Hope I've answered your questions.

 

[Spike]

FertilityDoc,
Forgive my ignorance, but something does not add up with regards to dimensions. Your room is a decent sized room, but I don't understand your listening position being only 5 feet away from the front speakers.

It sounds like a 5 channel amp will lead to significant compromise when listening to music. I frankly had not realized that.

Given a qualify 5-channel amp, you will not compromise on anything. The Proceed AMP5 will do nicely. On another note, there are those in a different camp where they'd go for a single high quality stereo amp instead of multi-channel (bi-amp). If you consider a good musical stereo amp within your budget, go with BAT vk-250, Classe' DR9, or the Nelson Pass designed Stasis Nakamichi PA-7. These are listed on A'gon currently.

I also did see the Proceed 5 channel amp on Audiogon. I have not read a lot about this brand. Does anyone have any experience with it?

The Proceed is the "little brother" of the famed Mark Levison line. The Proceed are made to put them in reach of mere mortals. Well, it's more of a stretch for most, given the price tag of $5k in 1999 dollars! Competing in that price point against the likes of Classe', Krell AV line, Bryston, etc... the Proceed more than hold their own with regards to being musical and reliable amp.

 

[R.I.P]

Welcome to Martin Logan Owners.

Glad to know that you got a good bargain on purchase of Theos loudspeakers.

Subjectively speaking and with deep respect for everyones opinion on this thread.

Monarchy audio seems to me to be a good choice, especially if its a reliable or high quality

amplifier. The deal on monarchy audio also seems like a good bargain. If you can extend

your budget then the Roger Sander's ESL amplifier may be a very good choice.

I have not heard Emotiva, Monarchy Audio or Sander's ESL amp. Therefore it is

difficult for me to decide. For best decision, audition, and let your ears be the best judge.

 

[beek]

I have had speaker upgraditis for about a year. I have had PSB Image 5T's for years. I had been perusing the AV boards for about a year. First heard the Martin Logan's at Magnolia and they were by far the best speakers in the store to my ears. I listen to an eclectic range of music including a lot of vocals and jazz. The soundstage is so expansive and I love the accuracy. I was considering some Internet only speakers specifically the Philharmonics or Salk speakers. It's always hard to buy something you can't audition. A pair of Theos showed up on Craigslist for $2300. They are less than a month old. I could not pass up the deal.

This is the resumption of an expensive hobby. I have an unbalanced front stage with the old PSB 9C as center. I still have PSB S50 as the surrounds and an old Def Tech Powerfield 15 sub. I only have only a Denon AVR 3312CI to drive these monsters. I will need a dedicated amp. The priority will be to find a Stage Center to get the fronts matching.

I am rediscovering the simple joys of 2 channel sound again. Played some reference FLAC files today. Oh my god! It sent a tingle down this 50 year old spine. I am surprised that even Internet radio sounds more than acceptable. I don't miss the the center channel given the soundstage of the ML's. I have to work on placement with the usual room restrictions. Eventually will need some absorption panels behind them.

I am now a Martin Logan advocate. I feel well on my way to musical Nirvana.

I too have recently got my mind blown with the s/q of Internet Radio, espicially hearing percussive effects on tunes heard a million times from the 50's over FM

 

[Bernard]

If I have to choose, the 2 channel sound quality is a priority. I am not that critical when watching movies.

If this is your requirement, I'm with danvu. Forget this five-channel stuff and use your money to buy the best 2-channel amp or pair of monoblocks that you can afford.

 

[LTD]

I can recommend the musical fidelity m6i - sounds fabulous and isn't as overpriced as others.

 

[Spike]

I can recommend the musical fidelity m6i - sounds fabulous and isn't as overpriced as others.

Given that FertilityDoc is working with a $1500 budget, the Musical Fidelity M6i is outside of his range. Furthermore, the M6i is an integrated, stereo amplifier which will not fit into his system.

Forget this five-channel stuff and use your money to buy the best 2-channel amp or pair of monoblocks that you can afford.

Not so fast! FertilityDoc said that he has more emphasis on 2-channel over multi-channel application, BUT he still needs at least 3 channels of amplification for his front speakers. At least, that is what I understand from his post stating "I could go with a 3 channel amp but prefer 5 channel since I would like to try biamping" and "Clarity and detail are important across the soundstage when watching movies". These 2 statements imply that seamless transition between the 3 front channels is VERY important to Doc.
Doc, please clarify how important is the center-channel in your system? Will you be happy with powering the center channel with the Denon and focus on 2-channel amplifier? If you can compromise with the Denon driving the center channel, the BAT vk-250 ($1795) on A'gon fits your bill perfectly with regards to "clarify and detail".

 

[FertilityDoc]

FertilityDoc,
Forgive my ignorance, but something does not add up with regards to dimensions. Your room is a decent sized room, but I don't understand your listening position being only 5 feet away from the front speakers.

Given a qualify 5-channel amp, you will not compromise on anything. The Proceed AMP5 will do nicely. On another note, there are those in a different camp where they'd go for a single high quality stereo amp instead of multi-channel (bi-amp). If you consider a good musical stereo amp within your budget, go with BAT vk-250, Classe' DR9, or the Nelson Pass designed Stasis Nakamichi PA-7. These are listed on A'gon currently.


The Proceed is the "little brother" of the famed Mark Levison line. The Proceed are made to put them in reach of mere mortals. Well, it's more of a stretch for most, given the price tag of $5k in 1999 dollars! Competing in that price point against the likes of Classe', Krell AV line, Bryston, etc... the Proceed more than hold their own with regards to being musical and reliable amp.

I have to correct the listening position distance. Finally measured it this evening. My depth perception must be off. I have a 96" wide projection screen with an Optoma HD-180 Projector. The Martin Logan Theos are just to the sides for the screen about 30" from the wall. The main listening position is 8 feet at the closest couch position and 9 feet from the center. I do have 2 bass shakers in the sofa. The effect is great with movies.

Thanks for the advice on the amps. I have never seen area where there are so many choices and many smaller manufacturers where it is hard to get a large number of reviews. I continue to watch Audiogon and Ebay. Hopefully a well regarded amp may show up in one of those places. If not and I lose patience, I may still pull the trigger on a new amp.

 

[FertilityDoc]

I too have recently got my mind blown with the s/q of Internet Radio, espicially hearing percussive effects on tunes heard a million times from the 50's over FM

I agree about the internet radio. Even Pandora sounds good despite that fact that I am sure they are playing compressed files!!!

 

[FertilityDoc]

I am definitely leaning in the direction of the monoblocks. Committing to a 5 channel amp is a point of no return. It would just give me more flexibility to pick up 2-3 monoblocks and expand the system slowly.

 

[FertilityDoc]

Given that FertilityDoc is working with a $1500 budget, the Musical Fidelity M6i is outside of his range. Furthermore, the M6i is an integrated, stereo amplifier which will not fit into his system.


Not so fast! FertilityDoc said that he has more emphasis on 2-channel over multi-channel application, BUT he still needs at least 3 channels of amplification for his front speakers. At least, that is what I understand from his post stating "I could go with a 3 channel amp but prefer 5 channel since I would like to try biamping" and "Clarity and detail are important across the soundstage when watching movies". These 2 statements imply that seamless transition between the 3 front channels is VERY important to Doc.
Doc, please clarify how important is the center-channel in your system? Will you be happy with powering the center channel with the Denon and focus on 2-channel amplifier? If you can compromise with the Denon driving the center channel, the BAT vk-250 ($1795) on A'gon fits your bill perfectly with regards to "clarify and detail".

The Music Fidelity M6i is definitely outside of my price range. Just to explain my priority. I have decided that the 2 channel experience is where I am the most demanding. I am more forgiving when I watch a movie where you are more wrapped up in the story and the 7.2 experience. I would eventually like to amp the center channel. It is a lower priority at present. I have to build the system knowing that I can add a matching amp to the center channel in the future.

So after this long discussion I am leaning towards 2 monoblocks. I can live with the center channel and surrounds being managed by the Denon 3311CI while watching movies for the time being.

And again, thanks to all for generously sharing their time and experience!

 

[Spike]

I would eventually like to amp the center channel. It is a lower priority at present. I have to build the system knowing that I can add a matching amp to the center channel in the future.

That's what I used to think, and I actually got the matching Classe' amp (during my pre-SixPacs days) for the Cinema center channel only to find out that it does not matter what I do on the amplifier side, the design of the center channel is vastly different than the mains and I think you're experiencing the same thing. The center channel with the 6" woofers AND the soft-dome tweeter deviates too much from the pure panels of the mains and no amp will be able to fix this issue. If you're not as critical with regards to HT, don't waste $$$ on getting the matching amp. You should get one which fits your need and preference for the center rather than getting the matching brand.

So after this long discussion I am leaning towards 2 monoblocks. I can live with the center channel and surrounds being managed by the Denon 3311CI while watching movies for the time being.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. In the ideal world where everything is the same, looking for monoblocs makes sense with regards to channel separation. But we're living in a world where we need to make compromises. In this case, I'd look for good design and sound execution of the amp over the stereo vs monobloc configuration. For example, I'm on the "keep things as simple as you can" camp, and I'd look for 2 gain stages in the amp in order to preserve the signal purity. If you're looking for detail and clarity, I'd stay with Pass & BAT. These are about as simple in their design as you can get in order to give you the transparency you're looking for. For your stated budget, and given the room size, the BAT vk-250 on A'gon is the perfect fit IMHO.
Let me clarify my rationale a bit here... If I have a choice of monoblocs which are of 3 (or more) gain stages vs a stereo amp with 2 gain stages (the BAT vk-250), I'd pick the BAT over the monoblocs for the simple circuitry, component quality and robust power supply design. Later on, when your budget allows, you can always get another one and send them back to BAT to convert to monoblocs. Or you can keep the BAT on bass duty and get a pair of tube monoblocs for the panels. The possibilities are many.

 

[danvu]

So after this long discussion I am leaning towards 2 monoblocks. I can live with the center channel and surrounds being managed by the Denon 3311CI while watching movies for the time being.

Hi Doc,
I'm glad that we could persuade you to stay away from getting a multichannel amp and lean toward monoblocks. I'm with Spike on also considering a stereo amp. You can get a well designed stereo one with dual monoblock config and still be able to get all (or most) of the advantages of monoblocks and save some space, one outlet, and probably some money .

Regarding the center, I'm also using my receiver (Onkyo TX-NR906) to drive the center. The left/right and rears are driven by separated amps but I used to drive the rears with the receive amp too. And the center' sound is very good, clear and dynamic, as the receiver is free from the heavy duty of driving the left and right. So I dont think you have to worry much about getting an amp for the center for a while. But like you, I'm not very picky about movie sound, as long as it's clear and loud

 

[Bernard]

And after (before?) Doc gets his amp(s) it will be time for a segue into a discussion of whether you use short interconnects and long speaker cables, or the other way round

Hey Doc, are you related to the guy who goes here by the name of Baby Doc ?

 

[FertilityDoc]

That's what I used to think, and I actually got the matching Classe' amp (during my pre-SixPacs days) for the Cinema center channel only to find out that it does not matter what I do on the amplifier side, the design of the center channel is vastly different than the mains and I think you're experiencing the same thing. The center channel with the 6" woofers AND the soft-dome tweeter deviates too much from the pure panels of the mains and no amp will be able to fix this issue. If you're not as critical with regards to HT, don't waste $$$ on getting the matching amp. You should get one which fits your need and preference for the center rather than getting the matching brand.


Ok, now we're getting somewhere. In the ideal world where everything is the same, looking for monoblocs makes sense with regards to channel separation. But we're living in a world where we need to make compromises. In this case, I'd look for good design and sound execution of the amp over the stereo vs monobloc configuration. For example, I'm on the "keep things as simple as you can" camp, and I'd look for 2 gain stages in the amp in order to preserve the signal purity. If you're looking for detail and clarity, I'd stay with Pass & BAT. These are about as simple in their design as you can get in order to give you the transparency you're looking for. For your stated budget, and given the room size, the BAT vk-250 on A'gon is the perfect fit IMHO.
Let me clarify my rationale a bit here... If I have a choice of monoblocs which are of 3 (or more) gain stages vs a stereo amp with 2 gain stages (the BAT vk-250), I'd pick the BAT over the monoblocs for the simple circuitry, component quality and robust power supply design. Later on, when your budget allows, you can always get another one and send them back to BAT to convert to monoblocs. Or you can keep the BAT on bass duty and get a pair of tube monoblocs for the panels. The possibilities are many.

I won't pretend to be audio expert but I agree with regards to the center channel. Even though the Stage Center is a good sized center, it is so much smaller than the Theos. It is going to be impossible to be a perfect match across the front stage. I think you are right about the amp on the center channel. I have pushed that way down my priority list. I just need good amps for the Theos alone.

I am still struggling with issue of which amp. I have never seen such a crowded space with many small manufacturers. It is almost impossible to demo them. Even if I go to an audio store in the area, the selection will be very limited. I have to rely on internet reviews etc to get me in the right ballpark.

Sincere thanks for all the good advice and the specific amp recommendations. I hope to get this all done and finished in the next couple of months.

 

[FertilityDoc]

Hi Doc,
I'm glad that we could persuade you to stay away from getting a multichannel amp and lean toward monoblocks. I'm with Spike on also considering a stereo amp. You can get a well designed stereo one with dual monoblock config and still be able to get all (or most) of the advantages of monoblocks and save some space, one outlet, and probably some money .

Regarding the center, I'm also using my receiver (Onkyo TX-NR906) to drive the center. The left/right and rears are driven by separated amps but I used to drive the rears with the receive amp too. And the center' sound is very good, clear and dynamic, as the receiver is free from the heavy duty of driving the left and right. So I dont think you have to worry much about getting an amp for the center for a while. But like you, I'm not very picky about movie sound, as long as it's clear and loud

Danvu,

Really appreciate the advice. The Denon 3311CI is no slouch as a receiver. It seems to drive the 7.2 system I currently have without straining too much. It should have no problem driving the center, side surrounds and back surrounds. I will get either 2 monoblocks or a 2 channel amp. I had not even thought about the outlet issue! I'll have to check on that. Even though I am not picky regarding the movie sound, the Stage Cener is great. Really clear dialogue. With regards to the theater being loud, I mentioned I have bass shakers in the couch. It is a great illusion in that you don't have to have the whole house vibrating and yet there is the perception of exaggerated base.

 

[FertilityDoc]

And after (before?) Doc gets his amp(s) it will be time for a segue into a discussion of whether you use short interconnects and long speaker cables, or the other way round

Hey Doc, are you related to the guy who goes here by the name of Baby Doc ?

Bernard,

Opening up another can of worms? And I thought I was getting closer to finalizing all the decisions and now I have to worry about the interconnects/speaker cables. I was planning to connect the amp to my Denon with decent RCA cables alone. Will I have to do another 2 hours of reading on this subject?? Obsession is a curse!

With regards to Baby Doc, there is no formal relation. I guess I am sort of a Baby Doc myself. But I only follow them for a short time. Haven't done a delivery since 1989. No relation to the Haitian dictator either....