you have absolutely know idea what they are going to do besides that buying new panels now when you do not need them is stupid because those can just go bad as well even if they are not played. there are other speaker manufactures on this planet if in the unlikely event that Logans become unavailable.you guys are crossing way to many bridges before you get to them.
ML Production moving
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you have absolutely know idea what they are going to do besides that buying new panels now when you do not need them is stupid because those can just go bad as well even if they are not played. there are other speaker manufactures on this planet if in the unlikely event that Logans become unavailable.you guys are crossing way to many bridges before you get to them.
You are right on this point. I do not know what they are going to do, nor do I profess to knowing. It is all rampant speculation at this point. Truth is, they are keeping their future plans very quiet so all we can do at this point is take what we see happening and make rational inferences about the direction they are headed.
I still stand by my statement. I will be very surprised if replacement panels for legacy ML speakers are not phased out in the fairly near future. And even if they are not, I will suspect the quality of replacement panels made by workers in Canada who never had a hand in manufacturing the original speakers.
No, it is not stupid. It is very smart, for two reasons. First of all, you are wrong about them going bad. If you leave the panels in the packaging in which they arrive and keep them in a climate controlled area (i.e., a closet in your house), there is no reason for them to go bad. It is dust, dander, humidity and other environmental elements that cause the panels to deteriorate. Keep them in the packaging in which they arrive and in an air-conditioned environment and they should be as good five or ten years from now as the day they arrive on your doorstep.
Second, replacement panel prices have been rising steeply over the last five years. The sooner you buy them, the cheaper they are likely to be. If they do continue to offer replacement panels for legacy MLs, which at this point is reasonably in doubt, I strongly suspect they will continue to raise the prices on them and I also suspect the quality of them will deteriorate. Those are all good reasons to consider buying now vs. waiting to see what happens.
This is true. You can always buy a different speaker. I'm not really sure why that's relevant. My comment specifically referred to people who own legacy Martin Logan speakers and want to continue using them for many, many years. Some people are happy with what they have and just want them to continue working, rather than search for a new speaker to satisfy their musical tastes. For these people, access to quality replacements of the original panels is absolutely critical.
No, we are planning for the moment when we get to the river and the bridge is no longer there.
One thing is certain. Panels do deteriorate and tend to need replacement within about fifteen to twenty years, sometimes sooner, depending on environmental conditions. So, if you know you want to keep your legacy ML speakers for longer than that, and you want them to perform at their optimum, and you expect panel prices will continue to rise, and you suspect there is a possibility that ML may stop producing them, and you know you have a reasonable place to store them, then it is absolutely a smart, calculated decision to buy replacement panels now rather than wait and have faith in Shoreline management to continue the strong tradition of customer service at ML.
Personally, I don't have a lot of faith in a corporate management team that introduces a cheesy "made in the Heartland of America" ad campaign a few months before they shift all speaker production to Canada.
You know what surprises me most about this thread? The paucity of comments by long-time forum members! This decision to shift ESL production to Canada is easily the biggest news impacting the future of Martin Logan speakers since Gayle sold to Shoreline and left the company. Yet, there are really relatively few comments from longtime members of the forum discussing it. I think we have had more intensive discussions over cables or window dots. What's up with that?
You know, it occurs to me that if Shoreline management is really as smart as they seem to believe, in retrospect it might have been prudent to have posted up here to concurrent (or right after) with the announcement in Lawrence.
This might have mitigated some of the angst created with this "Bolt from the Blue."
One of IBM's strong tenets, especially during their glory years, was being manic about "Taking Care of Today's Customers." If you were an account manager at IBM, and lost an account to a competitor, well, you wouldn't have a very good year.
This has been one of Martin Logan's key strengths in the past. Would be nice if that turned out to be true going forward...
This might have mitigated some of the angst created with this "Bolt from the Blue."
One of IBM's strong tenets, especially during their glory years, was being manic about "Taking Care of Today's Customers." If you were an account manager at IBM, and lost an account to a competitor, well, you wouldn't have a very good year.
This has been one of Martin Logan's key strengths in the past. Would be nice if that turned out to be true going forward...
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asindc
Well-known member
As much as I have enjoyed my speakers and the exceptional customer service behind them, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
aliveatfive
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Comment from older members? I've been here from the very beginning. Here's mine: I find this situation troubling. I had very seriously considered the purchase of a new pair of CLX's, but I now have doubts. I envision a situation in which ML and Paradigm become a merged unity with a consolidated product line. Where that leaves us Summit, Spire and Prodigy owners, who knows?
Fact is the bottom line is the major line for a corporation, not a fringe audiophile speaker with limited distribution and very high price points. Any saving they can find WILL BE REALIZED and if that involves moving production out of Kansas, well then they will move it. I wouldn't be surprised to find the entire Kansas operation closed down within a year or two and all functions consolidated into one place.
I was considering the Spires, or more likely, a used pair of Vantages, to replace the Clarity's but with this news I'll definitely wait. Not that Canada is China, where my Clarity's were made, but as someone said, there are other speakers out there.
I was considering the Spires, or more likely, a used pair of Vantages, to replace the Clarity's but with this news I'll definitely wait. Not that Canada is China, where my Clarity's were made, but as someone said, there are other speakers out there.
Hey guys, looks like a lot of speculation and fears, so let me set the record straight:
"What's going on!? Where are you going!? Don't leave us!!!"
Manufacturing of all ESL products will move moved to our sister company's (Paradigm) "state-of-the-art" facility (it's true, that facility is awesome). Build quality will remain unchanged -- we have very strict tolerances that our QA team won't change, and will probably benefit greatly from the new facility.
"This sucks, you're just going to become one product with Paradigm, right?"
Wrong, in no way are product lines going to "merge" as they are completely different speakers in completely different markets. There would be absolutely ZERO advantage to merging to one product.
MartinLogan products remain just that -- MartinLogan. All of our products will remain designed and engineered in Lawrence, KS, with the same guys that put their genius into creating speakers for YEARS. And now they get to push the limits of their ideas with a first-class manufacturing facility. I, for one, am excited to see what they can come up with now, and so should you!
"Change is scary, will you hold me?"
No, but let me say this: I'm very happy to be working for MartinLogan. "The Great American Speaker Company" still rings true with me, don't forget about all of us that will still be cranking out great ideas and awesome speakers, living right in the center of America! I'm proud that our ESL speakers will still be hand-crafted by people that actually "care" about how they are built, and take the time to make sure they are perfect. We wouldn't have it any other way.
So relax, take a deep breath, open a nice bottle of wine and sit down and listen to some great music -- there are plenty more cool MartinLogan speakers coming your way!
Justin Bright
Marketing Director
"What's going on!? Where are you going!? Don't leave us!!!"
Manufacturing of all ESL products will move moved to our sister company's (Paradigm) "state-of-the-art" facility (it's true, that facility is awesome). Build quality will remain unchanged -- we have very strict tolerances that our QA team won't change, and will probably benefit greatly from the new facility.
"This sucks, you're just going to become one product with Paradigm, right?"
Wrong, in no way are product lines going to "merge" as they are completely different speakers in completely different markets. There would be absolutely ZERO advantage to merging to one product.
MartinLogan products remain just that -- MartinLogan. All of our products will remain designed and engineered in Lawrence, KS, with the same guys that put their genius into creating speakers for YEARS. And now they get to push the limits of their ideas with a first-class manufacturing facility. I, for one, am excited to see what they can come up with now, and so should you!
"Change is scary, will you hold me?"
No, but let me say this: I'm very happy to be working for MartinLogan. "The Great American Speaker Company" still rings true with me, don't forget about all of us that will still be cranking out great ideas and awesome speakers, living right in the center of America! I'm proud that our ESL speakers will still be hand-crafted by people that actually "care" about how they are built, and take the time to make sure they are perfect. We wouldn't have it any other way.
So relax, take a deep breath, open a nice bottle of wine and sit down and listen to some great music -- there are plenty more cool MartinLogan speakers coming your way!
Justin Bright
Marketing Director
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User211
Well-known member
Well, I haven't been around here too long, but I have been an ML owner for 20 years. Here's a few thoughts. They are only thoughts, mind, not absolutes.
1) I am not sure I agree with your panel storage assertion. They arrive in "nothing special" i.e. loose plastic inside a cardboard box. I know, I'm on my fourth set of panels in 20 years, and went through 3 sets just trying to get one set that was fit enough for my old Aerius many years ago. I reckon they last about 7 years, not 15 to 20, but I can see environmental conditiions varying this considerably.
2) The panels are mylar which is under tension. Mylar will simply lose the ability to hold this tension over time, so storage time is relevant on this point alone, even if the panels were better packed than they are. An air tight vacuum seal would be much more ideal. Things get old, and skin slackens, just like in people.
3) Engineers are engineers. Whether they come from the US, Canada, or the UK or Europe. In any country, engineers need money to flourish. As long as the Canadian concern pays enough to attract the required skill level, there won't be a problem. Indeed, panel manufacture is automated, as described earlier in the thread. And the cabinet skills seem to be there too.
4) People don't like change. People are proud of their own country. In fact, people are so proud of their own country, they will lose their own lives for it and their families. So it hurts national pride when something apparently as adverse as this happens. Much of the disdain for this move comes from this fact alone. Fair enough, really.
5) Don't worry about the panels if the worst comes to the worst. A third party absolutely WILL step in. Just like with Apogee ribbons which are now made by Graz in Australia - to a better standard than the originals. Though he now has a German counterpart who has recently turned up offering DIY bass panel installation, something Graz is obviously deeply upset by. ML sales are massively beyond what Apogee ever achieved. If there's a market, there will always be a supplier.
6) Much of what has been said here is negative. Perhaps we ought to accept that some positive things may come of it.
Only time will tell. Just don't get too concerned about it. I am not advocating apathy - just keep a watchful eye on the proceedings. At the end of the day, it can only be interesting.
Even if ML goes under, point 5) will save everyone who can't do without their beloved MLs. Pretty sure that won't happen, though.
Good luck ML, and try to ignore some of the less positive points here.
Hell, some of them will be reading this. And what sort of confidence does the negative slant of this thread provide them with? People need to feel good about what they do to do well and take pride in what they do. Don't hammer them, especially you're fellow Americans, with negativity.
Ripe coming from a Brit, but hey, just trying to help...
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Glad to see ML actually represented here. Thank you.
What about panel replacement for older models. Like my CLS and such ! Will we still be able to get them?
I appreciate you responding to the thread, Justin. But, given that you are the marketing director, you will excuse me if I take your words with a huge grain of salt. As I have already indicated, I find it highly disingenuous that you instituted the "Great American Speaker Company, Speakers from the Heartland" campaign just a few months before shifting ESL speaker production to another country.
It is nice that you have a state of the art facility to move production to (albeit one that has heretofore been geared toward cone/box speaker production rather than ESLs). But that still doesn't account for the loss of experience of the people that have been hand-producing these speakers for many years. I don't see how you can abruptly shift production to another country, train new people how to make the ESL panels, and still maintain the quality level we have come to expect. Time will tell soon enough whether I am right or wrong on that point. But I wish you all luck with the transition.
Jimna
Well-known member
well said justin (user211)
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Always glad to hear your thoughts, Justin.
My guess is that the humidity levels in your country are to blame for your shorter panel lifespan. Or perhaps the air pollution is worse where you live. I don't know. But here in the States, fifteen to twenty years is not uncommon.
I believe you are incorrect. Mylar doesn't lose the ability to hold tension. The tension is held by double-sided sticky foam tape that is pressed between the mylar and both stators. The mylar is stretched over that tape, and then pressed into place. I suppose it is possible that the sticky tape could lose its grip on the mylar while in storage. But no more so than it is possible for it to happen to my speakers right now. And it hasn't happened in ten years on my Ascents, so I don't see it as a big risk.
Generally, when panels need to be replaced, it is not due to a lack of tension in the mylar. It is due to environmental contaminants building up on the mylar and weighing it down. This is why regular vacuuming of the panels is recommended. I don't see this as an issue for panels stored in the packing materials you describe, so long as they are kept in a climate-controlled environment.
Electrostatic panels are not built by engineers. They are built by manual laborers. I know. I have been to the factory in Lawrence and watched them assemble them with my own eyes. And no, the entire process is not automated. Dave's reference to a new jig was correct, but the jig is simply a means of holding the stators in place while the person assembling the panel stretches the mylar over the stator. And then stretches it some more . . . and pulling it off and restretching . . . and then pulling up this part and restretching, because it is not just right. And when the whole mylar piece is properly stretched all the way up and down one stator, then they carefully place the other stator over it and press them together.
You get the idea. Stretching the mylar is a tedious process, done by hand by people who have a great deal of experience doing it just right. I'm not saying that others can't learn how to do it. But to throw away the experience of a dozen people that have been doing it for years, and abruptly shift production to another factory in another country . . . well, it does raise some concerns about the transition, doesn't it?
True enough, I suppose. I imagine a lot of the Americans here take a great deal of pride in the history of this company because it has been a Great American Speaker Company for so many years.
This too, is probably very true.
And I agree with this point too. Great things could come out of these changes. But I haven't been overly impressed with the direction things have been headed for the past few years. They have made a concerted effort to push into higher volume, lower quality markets, and there is some valid concern that the higher end products will suffer. Lovers of the old line (Prodigy, Ascent, et al.) would say that has already begun to happen. They do seem to have sacrificied a "big" sound in order to get a small form factor.
I have been happy with my Summits, though. They sound better in some ways than the Prodigies, worse in others. And I was happy and impressed with the CLX. So as you say, we need to wait and see what they do. Time will tell soon enough.
Thanks Justin for setting the record straight! That should be that! But I really doubt it will be.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Rich,
I guess I can consider myself as one of the older members. And I have owned four different ML models over the last 23 years or so.
It's not that I don't care. You and others familiar with me and my posts know I do.
The problem is (and I stated this earlier) that I'm not sure how much power, influence, or whatever we have over someone in Corporate making a decision. One trusts that those individuals know the quality of the ML brand and the many folks who are enamored by the product.
I guess I've learned over the years (for better or worse) that speculation about the future is merely that, with no certainty as to whether one's fears may prove out to be true or unfounded.
Please don't mistake this as discounting your and others' passion for the ML stat product line. Many people on this forum and elsewhere know the magic and musicality this product line offers. One can only hope that Corporate fully recognizes this, and responds accordingly, in the future.
Best,
Gordon
PS: Quick question for Justin and with all due respect, how long have you been Marketing Director for ML?
Wasn't Devin the previous MD?
I guess I can consider myself as one of the older members. And I have owned four different ML models over the last 23 years or so.
It's not that I don't care. You and others familiar with me and my posts know I do.
The problem is (and I stated this earlier) that I'm not sure how much power, influence, or whatever we have over someone in Corporate making a decision. One trusts that those individuals know the quality of the ML brand and the many folks who are enamored by the product.
I guess I've learned over the years (for better or worse) that speculation about the future is merely that, with no certainty as to whether one's fears may prove out to be true or unfounded.
Please don't mistake this as discounting your and others' passion for the ML stat product line. Many people on this forum and elsewhere know the magic and musicality this product line offers. One can only hope that Corporate fully recognizes this, and responds accordingly, in the future.
Best,
Gordon
PS: Quick question for Justin and with all due respect, how long have you been Marketing Director for ML?
Wasn't Devin the previous MD?
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I understand your point, Gordon. And it isn't that I just expect everyone to jump up in arms screaming and shouting about this. I was just a little surprised that this topic didn't seem to garner as much discussion by all of the members as I would have expected.
Whether you agree with the move, or disagree with it . . . whether you think it will be good for the brand long term, or the beginning of the end of it . . . there is no question that this is a huge event and a major shift for this company. For better or for worse, Martin Logan as a company will never be the same after this move of speaker production.
I just would have expected that such a major decision would have lit up the forum board like a wildfire. After all, this is a forum with over 1500 members dedicated solely to this speaker company. We discuss all things ML and audio-related, sometimes quite rabidly. Yet in four days, this thread has generated less than 100 replies. That really surprised me.
I know it is just speculation, and I know we don't have any control over what management decides to do. But we are here to discuss Martin Logan speakers, are we not? This seems like a pretty ripe topic for discussion.
Whether you agree with the move, or disagree with it . . . whether you think it will be good for the brand long term, or the beginning of the end of it . . . there is no question that this is a huge event and a major shift for this company. For better or for worse, Martin Logan as a company will never be the same after this move of speaker production.
I just would have expected that such a major decision would have lit up the forum board like a wildfire. After all, this is a forum with over 1500 members dedicated solely to this speaker company. We discuss all things ML and audio-related, sometimes quite rabidly. Yet in four days, this thread has generated less than 100 replies. That really surprised me.
I know it is just speculation, and I know we don't have any control over what management decides to do. But we are here to discuss Martin Logan speakers, are we not? This seems like a pretty ripe topic for discussion.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
We are my friend.
Horchem1972
Well-known member
The Great American Speaker Company is a load of bull.It was a ploy to misrepresent and take advantage of loyal customers,that believe in buying USA goods.Quality control has dropped since Gayle Sanders decided to leave and let Shoreline take over.It will continue to drop further by outsourcing components.I noticed that he did not acknowledge the question about supplying panels for older models.If you buy panels now,there is only a 5-year warranty.What happens if you buy them and there is a bad panel? You wasted $1500 if you do not install them right away.Many people on this site have had problems with their new or newer panels lately.I will admit I am a stubborn man with a long memory.I have owned 4 differant sets on ML and 2 differant center channels.If they stop producing replacement panels for the older models,I will never purchase another speaker from them again.
Jungle Jack
Well-known member
Hello,
I was one of the first to reply on this subject. And while I have not been a prolific poster here, I have been here a while.
I was the first to speculate that is was Paradigm's Plant where ESL Production was moving to. This was only after reading the City in Canada where they were moving to. I am not writing this to pat myself on my back so much as respond to the sentiment that not many Members on this thread have been here a while.
I am still trying to make peace with the idea of upper range Xstat ESL's no longer being made in Kansas. While it is true that Gen.2 Panels have been produced in China for years with the Electrostatic Design Series Models, but the Xstat Paneled Vantage, Spire, Summit X, and CLX had been completely manufactured in Kansas and the Panel for the Vista was built in Kansas while the Cabinet was not.
My biggest issue is with Vista's and Vantages being demonstrated at Magnolia A/V's in Best Buy now that they are not considered Reserve ESL's is that most will be auditioned with Denon AVR's instead of outboard amplifiers.
This lack of current and power compared to a amplifier will give many the wrong impression of the capabilities of these Speakers.
Given the change in nomenclature to Reserve ESL Series and ESL Series, really does not change much as Magnolia's have had Vista's and Vantages for some time. As have Audio Advisor.
It is just that the traditional Retailers for ML prior to ShoreViews acquisition always used powerful dedicated amplifiers when demonstrating ESL Speakers. With these changes, no longer is this the case.
I still cannot believe upcoming Reserve ESL and ESL Models will no longer be made in Kansas. While I love Paradigm, Martin Logan's are something truly special and I am not comfortable with the change. Saying nothing of the Marketing of ML as " The Great American Speaker Company" when nothing is even made in the United States anymore.
Cheers,
ML
I was one of the first to reply on this subject. And while I have not been a prolific poster here, I have been here a while.
I was the first to speculate that is was Paradigm's Plant where ESL Production was moving to. This was only after reading the City in Canada where they were moving to. I am not writing this to pat myself on my back so much as respond to the sentiment that not many Members on this thread have been here a while.
I am still trying to make peace with the idea of upper range Xstat ESL's no longer being made in Kansas. While it is true that Gen.2 Panels have been produced in China for years with the Electrostatic Design Series Models, but the Xstat Paneled Vantage, Spire, Summit X, and CLX had been completely manufactured in Kansas and the Panel for the Vista was built in Kansas while the Cabinet was not.
My biggest issue is with Vista's and Vantages being demonstrated at Magnolia A/V's in Best Buy now that they are not considered Reserve ESL's is that most will be auditioned with Denon AVR's instead of outboard amplifiers.
This lack of current and power compared to a amplifier will give many the wrong impression of the capabilities of these Speakers.
Given the change in nomenclature to Reserve ESL Series and ESL Series, really does not change much as Magnolia's have had Vista's and Vantages for some time. As have Audio Advisor.
It is just that the traditional Retailers for ML prior to ShoreViews acquisition always used powerful dedicated amplifiers when demonstrating ESL Speakers. With these changes, no longer is this the case.
I still cannot believe upcoming Reserve ESL and ESL Models will no longer be made in Kansas. While I love Paradigm, Martin Logan's are something truly special and I am not comfortable with the change. Saying nothing of the Marketing of ML as " The Great American Speaker Company" when nothing is even made in the United States anymore.
Cheers,
ML
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