ML Production moving

[Horchem1972]

Jeff, I meant to respond to this earlier but I forgot. Do you seriously believe this? Certainly this decision would never have been made while Gayle ran the company. Does Roger Sanders still support every speaker he ever made? What about Quad? Soundlabs? Magnepan? Bose?


Ok, I just threw that last one in there to see if you were paying attention. But you get my point.

This is the point I was trying to state earlier.Many people have suggested that you should just buy the newer speakers and get over it.If I had $6,000-$25,000 to spend I would.Legacy products are the only way many of us can enjoy the ML sound.How would CLX,Spire,or Summit owners feel if they were told that their speakers were now worthless.Remember the outrage when the Summits were not upgradeable? By Tonepub's statement,I feel he has forgotten what it was like when high end audio was not so easily obtainable for him.People need to understand that pulling thousands of dollars out of your pocket is simply not attainable for many people.

 

[amey01]

People need to understand that pulling thousands of dollars out of your pocket is simply not attainable for many people.

.......and nor is it good for the environment - it is extraordinarily irresponsible, this "chuck it out and buy a new one" mentality.

 

[FISH_MAN]

This is the point I was trying to state earlier.Many people have suggested that you should just buy the newer speakers and get over it.If I had $6,000-$25,000 to spend I would.Legacy products are the only way many of us can enjoy the ML sound.How would CLX,Spire,or Summit owners feel if they were told that their speakers were now worthless.Remember the outrage when the Summits were not upgradeable? By Tonepub's statement,I feel he has forgotten what it was like when high end audio was not so easily obtainable for him.People need to understand that pulling thousands of dollars out of your pocket is simply not attainable for many people.

In TonePubs defense I will say that that is why it is called "HI END" if they made it so every joe six pack could enjoy it would not be Hi end anymore although I think they should still support their older products fully if at all humanly possible

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hello,
Gordon, I certainly do not find this to be Rich's Thread. Rather, he is one of the few asking questions that need to be asked.

I have been taking part in this Thread since the first page and do agree with that had this Thread not generated the interest it has, there probably would not be dialog with Representatives of Martin Logan on this Thread.

Regardless of what has been said to placate us, I do not feel better about the direction of this Company. I purchased my Aerius i's in 1997 and have owned them and now Vantages, Stage, Vistas, Montages, and a Depth in my HT. I love them all and have no regrets.
Cheers,
ML

Mark,

I was in error regarding my comment towards Rich. Many others have obviously contributed. However, from what I've read on this thread, Rich and others are making predictions that may ultimately prove to be unfounded.

As I previously stated, I admire his and other members passion regarding this issue. I also have a well founded, personal respect for Rich and all the contributions he has made to the MLC.

Having said that and IMHO, everything about this move, and the ramifications thereof, are absolute, pure speculation and we will not know the outcome for several years to come.

Has our input had any value? Only time will tell.

GG

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
Gordon, thank you for the reply amigo. I certainly did not mean it as an attack. And I do too hope for the best and have no Crystal Ball about the future of what used to be the core Speakers in Martin Logan's lineup.

I am not sure why a Thread which has generated huge Page Views and Posts would cause nausea to anyone. Rather, this is a subject and action which has generated a great deal of interest and participation.
Cheers,
ML

 

[Sambob2]

but if a panel is to be discontinued, Justin - please give us some heads up.

thank you.
Lance Bailey
CLS, Logos, script (X4) depth (x2).

I agree with Lance.

I would love to hear a heads up well in advance (for those of us who may have to shell out a large sum of money) of any panel being discontinued. My ML ReQuest's are ten years old, still sing, but I am not going to put out another large sum of money to replace them with a completely new design or product - not yet. There are many other necessary expenses in my household that have higher priorities than a full-up brand-new ESL. My daughters college tuition for one. (On the luxury side of expenses are a new truck and large power amplifier).

I second someone's earlier post on a high performance crossover using premium parts. If cost is an issue, I would like to see the option of easy integration of an external crossover to the panel/speaker, completely by-passing the entire internal crossover.

Sam

 

[Rich]

However, from what I've read on this thread, Rich and others are making predictions that may ultimately prove to be unfounded.

IMHO, everything about this move, and the ramifications thereof, are absolute, pure speculation and we will not know the outcome for several years to come.

This is certainly true, Gordon. And we all do hope they turn out to be completely unfounded. In my defense, though, I have tried to base my speculation on the facts at hand and a realistic assessment of the situation. Yet every time I bring up facts to consider that may bear negatively on the situation (like the fact that the person now filling the shoes of Gayle Sanders has no prior experience in an audio-related business and is trying to run both Paradigm and Martin Logan at the same time) I get told I'm being too negative and I am just speculating. When I suggested people might want to buy replacement panels now, I got lambasted. Then it comes out that they have apparently already made the decision to discontinue support for some legacy models. So while a lot of what I have said is speculation, I think I have also done a pretty good job of laying out the factual reasons that support my concerns and based my speculations on reasonable inferences from those facts.

I also have a well founded, personal respect for Rich and all the contributions he has made to the MLC.

And I for you, my friend.

 

[asindc]

In TonePubs defense I will say that that is why it is called "HI END" if they made it so every joe six pack could enjoy it would not be Hi end anymore although I think they should still support their older products fully if at all humanly possible

While I don't disagree with your point, some high-end companies don't seem to mind indefinite continued support for legacy products (e.g., McIntosh).

 

[cyclone]

In TonePubs defense I will say that that is why it is called "HI END" if they made it so every joe six pack could enjoy it would not be Hi end anymore although I think they should still support their older products fully if at all humanly possible

If they don't support their older products it will be the begining of the end for Martin Logan.

 

[David Matz]

From a Martin Logan brochure from 2004:


In all seriousness, if Martin Logan loses this absolute, unflinching commitment to their customers (and it appears perhaps you already have), then the reputation for the brand built over thirty years will be shattered in a heartbeat and your loyal, repeat customers will dessert you in droves and never look back.

Supporting your legacy products . . . all of them . . . is the ideal solution for the Martin Logan customer. Otherwise, why should anyone even consider buying a CLX over, say, a Soundlab?

I'm not sure I share the romantic view of ML of old. One interpretation of this quote - from the same cynical frame as most of this thread - is as follows: Mr. Sanders was looking to unload the company. He created the Statement just to attract attention and break through the marketing clutter of various speaker companies by having the most expensive speaker out there. Expensive = exclusive = best = attention. (By the way, many industry insiders have told me that they think the CLX is a MUCH better speaker than the Statement, which was all hype. Why didn't Mr. Sanders build a more modest Statement - the CLX?) The economy was good. He wanted to cash out. This quote was equally directed at the suitors as much as at the owners of ML speakers or prospective buyers. He got lucky he sold in a good economy. Mr. D'agostino of Krell was not so lucky... If Mr. Sanders was so caring about the legacy of the brand and the customers, why not stick with ML until his last breath? If he really loved his baby, why did he sell to this "cold, impersonal, uncaring, diversified, clueless about audio, profit motivated investment company" that would destroy his elite and exclusive brand by taking it into Tweeter and Best Buy?

Folks, the only constant in life is change, and change is difficult sometimes. People make decisions with the information they have at the moment based on what's best for them and to meet certain goals. We can speculate and assume and whine all we want. But we can't control what we don't own. The owners are free to follow their goals. I still call for a buyout of ML by the MLC members!

 

[sleepysurf]

... But we can't control what we don't own. The owners are free to follow their goals. I still call for a buyout of ML by the MLC members!

This brings to mind the old adage...

Q) How do you make a small fortune in high-end audio?

A) Start off with a large fortune!

 

[Len44]

While I don't disagree with your point, some high-end companies don't seem to mind indefinite continued support for legacy products (e.g., McIntosh).

It would seem that this would be a terrific marketing ploy...and it seems to be working quite well for some other companies.

Certainly makes for brand loyalty among their customer base and builds a solid reputation in the community.

 

[David Matz]

This brings to mind the old adage...

Q) How do you make a small fortune in high-end audio?

A) Start off with a large fortune!

Or buy low - i.e. now. Expand the brand, market it to a new audience, cut costs in a reasonable way while improving quality, and increase its value. Then sell high.

 

[MOON]

Hello Justin,

Thanks for the answers.I also prefer the larger panels of the Odyssey, Prodigy models and would prefer the option of having the new models without the powered woofers.

ON SUBWOOFERS, you do make nice subwoofers (Depth i , Descent i ) but there is no room correction option that is available on similar priced subs from companys such as Paradigmn, JL Audio, SVS, Valodyne. Could you incorporate room correction into your subs or has ML given any thought to this? I think this option would make your subs more competetive in the market place and give you increased sales.

I agree with other members that panels for certin models shouldn't be phased out.Can you comment on why the replacement panel cost in Canada have been ridiculously higher than the same panel sold in the USA? Since the panels will be made in Canada now, will we see the prices of panels lower for us in Canada?

Thanks, Greg

 

[Rich]

One interpretation of this quote - from the same cynical frame as most of this thread - is as follows: Mr. Sanders was looking to unload the company. He created the Statement just to attract attention and break through the marketing clutter of various speaker companies by having the most expensive speaker out there.

Well, considering the original statement was released in 1988, and the e2 was released in 2000, and Gayle didn't sell the company until 2005, I would say that the facts don't really support your comment. Or, perhaps they do, and he was just a man that plans things twenty years or so in advance (remember it takes a few years of R&D before a product like that gets released) and was prescient enough to know that such an expensive system would not only sell, but get him great industry exposure and accolades rather than just bankrupt the company.

On the other hand, just about every thread on this forum regarding Martin Logan's stellar reputation for customer service tends to support the idea that Gayle's statement in that brochure wasn't just hype, but was the philosophy he instilled in all his employees. That was certainly the feeling I got from the longtime workers that I met at their factory, including Jim Power.

Why didn't Mr. Sanders build a more modest Statement - the CLX?

Ummmm, he did. It was called the CLS.

If Mr. Sanders was so caring about the legacy of the brand and the customers, why not stick with ML until his last breath?

I guess because he was human and wanted to retire or do something else in his life than run a speaker company. Or he was concerned about what might happen to the business if he died. Or for estate planning purposes. Or . . . Lots of possible reasons.

We can speculate and assume and whine all we want. But we can't control what we don't own. The owners are free to follow their goals.

This is true. But we can control our own pocketbooks. Most of us will probably buy more speakers in the future. I have been considering an upgrade to CLX for some time now. Suddenly, I have an urge to go listen to some Soundlabs.

And we can also control our own voices. This forum is read by many who have an interest in this speaker brand. This forum has probably done more to generate goodwill for ML than their own marketing department. And, for that matter, it has probably saved their customer service department thousands of hours answering questions. If ML does make the wrong choices and ends up alienating its rabid long time fan base, I think they will pay a heavy price on this and other forums and lose the reputation that has been built over many years.

 

[User211]

God, this thread is nauseatingly long... I will second and third what some of the other members have already said and add a few:

1) Larger panels in otherwise hybrid designs
2) No-powered-woofer options
3) Improved box construction with modern, in-vogue, materials like aluminum, birch plys et al - no more MDF.
4) Go back to rounded edges around the box, as in the Prodigy family
5) Crossovers with ultra premium parts
6) More advanced woofer cones and magnets
7) Bring back the fuller sound of the Prodigy family

1,2 and 7 are really important points that I've posted on a few times, and so have others.

If Martin Logan want to know what the customer wants, why doesn't Justin (er - no - not me) run a few polls on the forum to find out what they really do want?

The call for a smaller, say 2905 sized all ESL seems a good one, too.

And now I'm going to drop a bit of a clanger, possibly. ML have had the sense to adopt AMT technology. Whilst I haven't heard the ML implementation, done well, it is excellent.

This brings me on to the main point. Ribbon technology. Someone needs to resurrect it. Because from where I'm sitting, it is just superb - and with some good R&D, could be made better still. And it goes very low for a reasonable panel size. I'm currently thinking (and I am being as honest and unbiased as I possibly can) that this technology gives better subjective results than ESL tech does.

For instance, I have it on good authority that it is very hard to buy magnets as weak as those that were used in the original Apogees. It is also possible to make the ribbons with better precision.

Someone has done some work using stronger magnets, and that person is Graz of Apogee Acoustics. Easy enough to get in touch with. With some good R&D in this area, it will be possible to build some truly astonishing, efficient speakers, because, well, really IT ALREADY IS.

Somehow I have the feeling this will be ignored, when it should not be. In a sense, maybe that is a crime

Yeah, yeah, I know, Justin's got a pair of Apogees and he's impressed to say the least, talking in the third person. But seriously... - there's real scope here. The real point is, that if two guys working from home can produce a speaker that I would not swap for the Summit X, and possibly the CLX, just think what a bit of R&D & budget in this area could do.

According to the refurbisher, the Synergy that Graz built, once the crossovers were correct, which was after they were demo'd in London, unfortunately, were just phenominal.

 

[JonFo]

-Justin-

Thanks for joining back up in the discussion and for providing valuable insight into ML's strategy.

Personally, I understand some of these moves, and hope that the expansion of the brand into more mainstream areas helps support the R&D necessary to continue expanding the ESL line.

And for those that think that collaboration between Paradigm and ML will somehow dilute the later, then please take a hard look at brands like Revel, which are now part of the Harman group. They have benefited greatly from access to the amazing research and other resources shared within Harman International.

For an in-depth example of how this works, please listen to this recent Home Theater Geeks Podcast interviewing Kevin Voecks, the designer for Revel.


Another benefit is that by having manufacturing and other departmental presence in Canada, ML can now have direct access to the amazing Canadian National Research Council facilities and research.

To quote from the Wiki article on them :

More recently, the NRC has been highly influential in the field of audio. A great deal of research at the NRC has gone into the designs of many popular speakers from Canadian speaker manufacturers like Energy Loudspeakers and Paradigm Electronics. Some of their research has also influenced speaker designs around the world.

I detect a familiar name there

 

[Rich]

Ribbon technology. Someone needs to resurrect it.

I think you make a great point here, Justin. Magnepans have a rabid following just like ML so it is obviously a technology that can produce great sound. ML uses AMT drivers and conventional cone speakers along with their traditional esl panels. So it wouldn't really be a stretch for them to venture into this area. Interesting thought. Personally, I really like the sound of the big Maggies.

 

[Horchem1972]

In TonePubs defense I will say that that is why it is called "HI END" if they made it so every joe six pack could enjoy it would not be Hi end anymore although I think they should still support their older products fully if at all humanly possible

I thank you for thinking they should support their legacy models.But the term high end is very subjective.Your definition on high end in Tonepubs defense could be considered snobbish.If you have ever heard the CLS or Monolith line,the soundstage is much larger than the smaller,new versions of Logans.I am one of those that prefer the sound of the older Logans as are many others.There are advantages no matter how much technology can overcome a larger panel.Was that not the main reason of building the CLX in the first place.It does not matter to me what a reviewer thinks is the greatest thing since sliced bread.I go by my own ears and what I prefer.Would you consider
CAP or Jonfo's system of not being high end,because they own legacy models? I for one think they are and hopefully they would agree.

 

[User211]

I think you make a great point here, Justin. Magnepans have a rabid following just like ML so it is obviously a technology that can produce great sound. ML uses AMT drivers and conventional cone speakers along with their traditional esl panels. So it wouldn't really be a stretch for them to venture into this area. Interesting thought. Personally, I really like the sound of the big Maggies.

A point possibly poorly expressed, due mainly to the use of the word resurrect. There's Analysis Audio producing full range ribbons as well as Magnepan. Maggies are VERY short on the ground here - I've never heard a pair.

I'm not sure how far Magnepan and Analysis have pushed the tech, though, to be honest. I suspect not as far as Graz.

But I do know that the magnets used by Graz pushed the mass of the speaker way up, so for practical transportation & shipping costs, possibly not so good. As a result, we'd be talking an expensive speaker indeed. Synergy is still less than the CLX list price here, though.

Anyway, back on topic...