Just purchased New Vantage Speakers!! Have one Question...

[JMAUSGP]

Actually, last year I had a Sony SCD CE595 5 disc SACD 5.1 music player that was really nice. It was definitely worth 150 dollars. And for convenience it was pretty hard to beat, sounded good with the CLXs too.

Was it's DACs the best? Was it as quiet as a McCormack UDP-1? Did it play DVD Audio? When paired with a high-end audio chain was it the best I could do? No, no, no, and no, but for $150 bucks with 5.1 SACD output and SACD stereo output it was definitely worth having as I walked along the upgrade path..... okay stumbled along the upgrade path...Okay fell and broke my eardrum along the upgrade path........actually walking along the upgrade path has nearly killed me.....next time I will take the bus.

 

[Rich]

Indeed few of the best systems I've heard were based on "high end" CD players nor were they based on amps from that marketing niche either.

Now it could be that a different player might get me a little better sound but it's hard to imagine how since the system performs very well in clarity, tone and imaging. The weakness of the Vistas is the dynamics and that's a mechanical limitation no CD player is gonna fix.

Irishtom, I would agree that differences in speakers are much more obvious than differences in source players, but the higher the fidelity of your speakers, amp, and preamp, the more obvious the differences in source players become, in my experience. At the level my system is at right now, the limitations of a cheap source are painfully obvious.

Mantana, while I would agree that there are a lot of players that can best the Marantz, I think it holds its own pretty well within its price range. My next big purchase will probably be an Esoteric or Wadia to upgrade to a source that is on par with the rest of my system.

 

[Kevmars]

Funny, I would have disagreed with Rich for the most part, until about three weeks ago. Maybe not disagree, as much as not completely understand where he's coming from. I decided to upgrade my cd player Harman Kardon CDR with a McIntosh mcd7008. For the past few years I've loved the McIntosh power and sound match with my MLs. I've been reading a lot about cables over the past year and a half, to try to find out what's reasonable and what's unnecessary. After discussing the matter with my local High End retailer, who would of course love to sell me a pair of $35,000 Transparent cables, and $2000 interconnects, I decided I'd make sure my source, power and release point were all of the best quality I could afford. I have the power - amp, and the release - speakers. I needed a better source, or at least I'd see if it made any difference. I picked up the cd player and hooked it up, all the time worried that the difference would be minimal and I'd just spent $850 on a 10 year old cd player.
Enter Herbie Hancock's "River: The Joni Letters". The difference?


Heaven. That's the only way to explain it. Sonic bliss. I had only heard sound like that in a treated show room at my dealer, on two 7 feet maggie panels powered by one 600w amp a piece. I was floored. Horribly, the drawer on the player almost always stuck, which meant I had to take it back. They would fix it for free of course, but I told them to keep it because the possibility of that recurring would be daunting especially since this was tauted to be Macs best cd changer, you have to load each cd in one at a time. But man I want to get another Mac cd player, maybe one of their newer transports. Man that sound! Wow!

 

[Bernard]

I went from a cheap Teac CDP to a CAL Delta/Sigma II combo and heard a big improvement. I then upgraded some of the innards of the DAC (diodes and caps) and heard another big improvement. A further upgrade to a PrimaLuna CDP resulted in another big improvement. So, I cannot subscribe to the thinking that the differences between CDPs are minor.

 

[Rich]

The weakness of the Vistas is the dynamics and that's a mechanical limitation no CD player is gonna fix.

Irishtom, with all due respect, the weakness in your system isn't the Vistas, it is the amp you are driving them with. In an earlier post, you said you were using a Jolida 302B to drive your Vistas. That amp is woefully underpowered for those speakers. It is highly euphonic and does gives a lovely tone, but it colors the sound and simply lacks the power to bring their dynamics alive. You might get reasonable dynamics from a horn speaker with that amp, but not from an ESL. And honestly you would be hard pressed to hear real differences between source players given the amount of coloration that amp provides.

Try a powerful solid state amp on your Vistas and I don't think you will be complaining that the speakers lack dynamics. You never hear the folks with Krell amps complaining that Martin Logans lack dynamics. Although if you did, you may miss the euphony of the Jolida.

I'm not trying to bash the Jolida, by the way. For the money, it is a good amp and provides a pleasing tone. I heard it with the Vistas and thought it made a lovely sound. But it was highly colored; not accurate at all in its reproduction. For those that prefer this kind of sound, this is a fine amp. But it simply will not power electrostatic speakers to their ability levels. That is why you feel the Vistas are lacking in dynamics, I expect.

 

[David Matz]

No one has really made an audiophile cd changer because the motor of the cd changer makes too much noise. Although technically possible, it does not make business sense to make one that is quiet as costs exceed benefits.

As for differences b/w cd players, they are huge if you have a highly resolving system. The difference between cheaper and better ones are that some sound like digital robots, while others portay humans expressing emotion. Personally, I prefer the latter and am fortunate enough to have a system that allows me to enjoy it.

Of course, as always, listen for your self and choose based on your tastes and budget.

 

[Irishtom]

Irishtom, with all due respect, the weakness in your system isn't the Vistas, it is the amp you are driving them with......... That is why you feel the Vistas are lacking in dynamics, I expect.

That's your opinion.

Here's a fact, no small stat combined with a small dynamic woofer is gonna have good dynamics, even if power is unlimited. There are mechanical limitations that can't be gotten around.

In any event they play as loud as I need without distortion with the amp I'm using. Dynamics are a weakness of the speaker but in my situation that weakness isn't revealed. If dynamics were of primary importance to me I'd simply use a different type of speaker.

As for your opinion of the Jolida it's just that, an opinion. You rely on the "buying the pot" argument, simply stated as "you don't agree with me because your gear isn't as good as mine". This form of argument relies on stating opinion as fact and favoring one's own preference over another's as an objective gain in performence rather than simply being differing taste.

I don't buy it. I've heard enough hi-fis over the years to have a pretty good handle on what matters to me. What matters to you is your affair and is to be respected but not taken as Moses descending from Sinai.

 

[Gordon Gray]

My 2 pennies FWIW.

The ability of a system to reveal hardware and software differences is directly related to its resolution level or, to say another way, transparency. That "base line" level is determined by all the hardware as well as the sound of the room.

Once one's system reaches a certain level of articulation and transparency, minor changes in the system (power cables, resonance control devices, etc.) are, IMHO, easily audible, for better or worse.

So if one is not able to hear these differences in their system, my suspicion is that something else is wrong with the overall components (including wires), room acoustics, and / or system synergy.

This opinion is also based on being in this hobby for some 35 years.

Here's the good news.

If you can't hear a major difference in a CDP or whatever, or if you do and you don't feel it is significant from a listening perspective, count your blessings because you gonna save yourself alot of money in the future.

GG

 

[FISH_MAN]

If you can't hear a major difference in a CDP or whatever, or if you do and you don't feel it is significant from a listening perspective, count your blessings because you gonna save yourself alot of money in the future.

GG

that's like saying that it is better not to have loved than to have loved and lost or another words ignorance is bliss!I personally would rather not live in ignorance all though all of us seem to to in one degree or another. your point is correct though once you reach a certain level you can hear the little differences between equipment.

I know that I keep bringing this up but the biggest difference I have ever made in my system was switching from digital to analog source this was not a small arguable change but a big one I am glad I found. I know my reference point is not as refined as some others on this site but I know what I hear and what I like and the dragon we are all trying to catch seems so much closer now.

 

[Jungle Jack]

That's your opinion.

Here's a fact, no small stat combined with a small dynamic woofer is gonna have good dynamics, even if power is unlimited. There are mechanical limitations that can't be gotten around.

In any event they play as loud as I need without distortion with the amp I'm using. Dynamics are a weakness of the speaker but in my situation that weakness isn't revealed. If dynamics were of primary importance to me I'd simply use a different type of speaker.

As for your opinion of the Jolida it's just that, an opinion. You rely on the "buying the pot" argument, simply stated as "you don't agree with me because your gear isn't as good as mine". This form of argument relies on stating opinion as fact and favoring one's own preference over another's as an objective gain in performence rather than simply being differing taste.

I don't buy it. I've heard enough hi-fis over the years to have a pretty good handle on what matters to me. What matters to you is your affair and is to be respected but not taken as Moses descending from Sinai.

Nonetheless, if you had the "inferior" Vantages, your Jolida would be able to produce a much more dynamic sound being relieved of powering the bass section


Also, your assertion that a small panel coupled with a small woofer cannot produce "good dynamics" would also have to include the Vantage and Spires.
Strangely, most reviewers and owners have been quite shocked at just how dynamic the current generation of ML ESL Series are. Including the Spire in this because the dimensions compared to the Vista/Vantage is not huge.

What seems to be huge is the added sensitivity of using an active woofer section in the Vantage/Spire. If using the Vista, I would think having a very high power, high current amplifier would be of paramount importance.
ML

 

[FISH_MAN]

Nonetheless, if you had the "inferior" Vantages, your Jolida would be able to produce a much more dynamic sound being relieved of powering the bass section


Also, your assertion that a small panel coupled with a small woofer cannot produce "good dynamics" would also have to include the Vantage and Spires.
Strangely, most reviewers and owners have been quite shocked at just how dynamic the current generation of ML ESL Series are. Including the Spire in this because the dimensions compared to the Vista/Vantage is not huge.

What seems to be huge is the added sensitivity of using an active woofer section in the Vantage/Spire. If using the Vista, I would think having a very high power, high current amplifier would be of paramount importance.
ML

for one thing I have owned the vista's and vantages and now the spires in the same room with the same electronics.

1) the vantages are better than the vista hands down regardless of whatever people say about the ss amp or whatever it is a better engineered speaker has better components and costs more period.

2)the dimensions of the spire compared to the vantage are huge the cone driver alone is 2" larger in diameter ( that's 2" more around the outside!) the panels are also bigger they just have a much larger presence to them thus the ability to move more air and give more dynamic range.
they also have a sealed box enclosure which gives them a more forceful kick in the low end.

 

[Rich]

Here's a fact, no small stat combined with a small dynamic woofer is gonna have good dynamics, even if power is unlimited. There are mechanical limitations that can't be gotten around.

This is not a fact. It is simply false. ML's microperf stators allow greater efficiency out of a smaller stat panel, and they exhibit excellent dynamics with the right associated equipment. ESL's exhibit incredible speed and the ability to play at high spl's with minimal distortion. Both of these factors combine to provide great dynamics. What mechanical limitations you are referring to is beyond me.

As for your opinion of the Jolida it's just that, an opinion. You rely on the "buying the pot" argument, simply stated as "you don't agree with me because your gear isn't as good as mine". This form of argument relies on stating opinion as fact and favoring one's own preference over another's as an objective gain in performence rather than simply being differing taste.

You are correct that it is just an opinion. As is anyone's impression of any system or component. But it is an opinion based on actually hearing that amp with those speakers and comparing it to numerous other ML models with numerous other amps, both tube and solid state. I have pretty solid experience with which to make the distinction.

And notice I didn't say the Jolida was crap. I said it has a very pleasant sound. Just not a very accurate sound. If you think otherwise, you are fooling yourself. I also made clear that if your personal preference is for that kind of sound, that's fine.

But to say you love the sound of the amp, but that the speaker suffers from lack of dynamics is pretty funny. You seem to have no idea of the concept of system synergy. Yes, Virginia, the amp you use makes a difference in how the speaker performs. Even more so with the Vista than with the Vantage, Spire or Summit. And it shouldn't come as any surprise to an experienced audiophile that a 50 wpc chinese-made tube amp isn't going to drive a hybrid esl speaker to the best of its ability.

 

[TomDac]

No one has really made an audiophile cd changer because the motor of the cd changer makes too much noise.

I'll disagree with this one, David.. The McIntosh MCD205 that I had used the Nakamichi musicbank single loading system that was developed for IBM and it was very quiet.

I believe that changer as well as the other McIntosh CD changers that use this loading mechanism is/are audiophile grade...

 

[Irishtom]

This is not a fact. It is simply false. ML's microperf stators allow greater efficiency out of a smaller stat panel, and they exhibit excellent dynamics with the right associated equipment. ESL's exhibit incredible speed and the ability to play at high spl's with minimal distortion. Both of these factors combine to provide great dynamics. What mechanical limitations you are referring to is beyond me.
.

Speakers have mechanical limitations as pumps---they can only move so much air. How much they can move is determined by driver size and excursion. Stats have low excursions and 8" woofers have small area and most have pretty limited excursion too. Many speakers are excursion limited rather than power limited and it's not unusual to see speakers that act as giant heat sinks, accepting more power but not getting any louder. This is called compression and small direct radiators suffer greatly from it.

Go out and listen to some VOTs, Edgars or Danleys and then tell me if you think Vistas and Vantages have great dynamics.

As I said (and you ignored) I'm not using all the Vista's dynamic capabilities anyway, just pointing out that dynamics are a weakness of the type----small stats with small dynamic woofers.

 

[Irishtom]

Also, your assertion that a small panel coupled with a small woofer cannot produce "good dynamics" would also have to include the Vantage and Spires.

Indeed it would and does.

Strangely, most reviewers and owners have been quite shocked at just how dynamic the current generation of ML ESL Series are.

Oh well, I quit takers reviewers seriously in the 1970s. As for owners, I doubt that many have owned systems that had as great dynamic capabilities as those I've owned, in fact if they've traveled the conventional "high end" road the odds they've had a system with first rate dynamics are very low.

If using the Vista, I would think having a very high power, high current amplifier would be of paramount importance.
ML

That's not my experience. Like I said, if I needed great dynamics I'd use different speakers. There's no sense pretending a speaker does what it can't, just take it for it's virtues and live with it's weaknesses.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Irish,

Entered into this a bit late but oh well.

Maybe (maybe not?) you are confusing dynamics with a system that can clearly delineate "dynamic gradations".

In classical music, they describe this as "triple p to triple f". Read pianissimo (soft) to forte (loud). Classical music reviewers often use this scale to describe the gradations and the systems ability to portray such.

An example too far prevalent in todays recording industry is to compress the range so that all soft sections and all loud sections are "adjusted" so that the listener does not have to adjust the volume level to hear all of the music in a car environment, regardless of the db recorded range of that particular recording.

Based on this premise and the assumption that one listens at the average level of 85 to 90db, do you really believe that ML speakers are not dynamic?

GG

 

[Jungle Jack]

Indeed it would and does.




Oh well, I quit takers reviewers seriously in the 1970s. As for owners, I doubt that many have owned systems that had as great dynamic capabilities as those I've owned, in fact if they've traveled the conventional "high end" road the odds they've had a system with first rate dynamics are very low.



That's not my experience. Like I said, if I needed great dynamics I'd use different speakers. There's no sense pretending a speaker does what it can't, just take it for it's virtues and live with it's weaknesses.

Well, my prior speakers to my Vantages were Dunlavy SC-IV's and Paradigm Studio 100 V.2's. With the Dunlavy's I certainly did not find dynamics to be lacking. Moreover, I would think that there are few speakers that can compare short of Wilson Audio's Alexandria and MAXX 3 and other I could be driving a Ferrari instead speakers. The only reason I decided to sell the Dunlavy's was they literally dominated my room.

While I certainly would not say that my Vantages come close to the dynamic capabilities of the SC-IV's, with an amplifier with abundant current reserves, the Vantages put out a shocking amount of sound given their size.

I am in total agreement that stat's strong suit is not dynamics. However, given a very powerful, controlled power source, they play louder than I ever would have imagined.
Have you ever hooked up a high power/high current amplifier to your Vista's? If you have not, you might be pleasantly surprised. If wanting to stick with tubes, even a higher power tube amp.
ML

 

[Jungle Jack]

for one thing I have owned the vista's and vantages and now the spires in the same room with the same electronics.

1) the vantages are better than the vista hands down regardless of whatever people say about the ss amp or whatever it is a better engineered speaker has better components and costs more period.

2)the dimensions of the spire compared to the vantage are huge the cone driver alone is 2" larger in diameter ( that's 2" more around the outside!) the panels are also bigger they just have a much larger presence to them thus the ability to move more air and give more dynamic range.
they also have a sealed box enclosure which gives them a more forceful kick in the low end.

Fishman, I was certainly not postulating that the Spire were not superior to the Vantage. I included it in the example because it is a current generation single woofer speaker with a panel not that much bigger than the Vista/Vantage. The previous generation Ascent was 5 inches taller and only a half inch narrower than the Spire for instance. My intention was to point out that even given the smaller size of the current generation, they honestly seem to play louder.
ML

 

[Rich]

Speakers have mechanical limitations as pumps---they can only move so much air. How much they can move is determined by driver size and excursion.

Sorry, but that is a just a little too simplistic and ignores many other factors that play into this equation. First of all, the new generation of microperf panels effectively doubles the radiating area of the panel, allowing a smaller panel to move just as much air as a traditional panel that is twice as large. Second, these panels are line sources, so the volume of the waveform drops off at a lesser rate than with cone speakers, resulting in greater efficiency and higher spl's at the listening position. Third, the light weight of the driver membrane allows it to stop and start lightning fast, which results in quicker transients and better dynamics.

Having said all that, I do admit that you are correct that the woofer on the Vista is a big limitation. This is why I own Summits. And I also absolutely agree that they do not have anywhere near the efficiency nor the dynamics of quality horn speakers. I am quite familiar with the sound of the Klipschhorns, so I understand what you are talking about.

Regardless, I still believe the dynamics exhibited by ML's are on par with any non-horn speaker in its price range. They are hardly lacking in that department if driven with the right equipment. But I understand if you are a horn lover, that they may come up short in that department to your ears.

As I said (and you ignored) I'm not using all the Vista's dynamic capabilities anyway, just pointing out that dynamics are a weakness of the type----small stats with small dynamic woofers.

This is what I don't understand. Here is what you said in your original post:

Now it could be that a different player might get me a little better sound but it's hard to imagine how since the system performs very well in clarity, tone and imaging. The weakness of the Vistas is the dynamics and that's a mechanical limitation no CD player is gonna fix.

That sounds to me like you are saying that the only problem with the sound you are getting out of your Vistas is a lack of dynamics, and therefore upgrading to a high quality CD player wouldn't fix the problem. But then you go on to say later that you "are not using all of the dynamic capabilities of the Vista anyway" (which was kind of my point about the amp that you are using -- it can't possibly push the Vistas to their dynamic abilities). So on the one hand, the speaker is not dynamic enough for you and you consider that a flaw in the speaker, so a change in source couldn't possibly help your sound . . . but on the other hand, you are using an amp that doesn't emphasize it's dynamic abilities and you have no problem with that.

Ultimately, my point is that with a better amp and preamp on your Vistas, your resolution would be improved such that you could hear a bigger difference between source players. I understand that you disagree with that notion and hold fast to your own belief that a cheap Sony CD changer and a 50 wpc Chinese-made tube amp can drive the Vista's to perfection (within their dynamic limitations, of course).

 

[Gordon Gray]

that's like saying that it is better not to have loved than to have loved and lost or another words ignorance is bliss!I personally would rather not live in ignorance all though all of us seem to to in one degree or another. your point is correct though once you reach a certain level you can hear the little differences between equipment.

I know that I keep bringing this up but the biggest difference I have ever made in my system was switching from digital to analog source this was not a small arguable change but a big one I am glad I found. I know my reference point is not as refined as some others on this site but I know what I hear and what I like and the dragon we are all trying to catch seems so much closer now.

Whatever Fishman.

You totally missed my point.

Oh well.

I'm glad you prefer analogue.

I find your "dragon" much more attainable in the digital domaine.

GG