Is Roger Sanders Losing The Plot?

[User211]

He may have misused the right words but he doesn't deserve to be burnt at the stake or ridiculed.

Can't see any evidence he has been burned at the stake or ridiculed in this thread. Go back and re-read it. All I said was he was losing the plot a bit with regards to the accuracy of his claims... which in that video, he was IMHO.

 

[David Matz]

The question is why are his panels guaranteed for life and Martin Logans are not?How can he offer a tranferable warranty but ML cannot?

There is no magic here; no free lunch either - just economics. This is priced into his product. ML can do the same and charge a higher price. They are just a bigger company, and the trade-offs may not be worth it for ML. Sanders does not face the same trade-offs, so it is part of his value proposition. Imagine how much lower the prices would be for cars if they could only be leased from a manufacturer and never sold on the second hand market, or textbooks, or anything else that can be resold.

I can't wait to hear his product so we can judge the substance behind the claims.

 

[FISH_MAN]

you get so much more for your dollar with Martin Logan than what he can
even think about providing.

 

[User211]

Want mono blocs? He'll give you 100% what you paid for the 2 channel amp to upgrade. Say what? It's true.

This begs the question "what does he do with the amps you traded in for the upgrade?".

 

[Rich]

you get so much more for your dollar with Martin Logan than what he can
even think about providing.

Please explain. I agree that there are certain advantages to mass production and a larger factory of trained specialists, and the greater capital assets that ML has to work with. But I also see certain advantages to working with a smaller producer who creates a quality product and puts the customer first above all else.

As was mentioned earlier, you can trade your used two-channel Sanders amp for a 100% credit towards an upgrade on his monoblocks! Since when has ML offered anything like that? My Summits are just a couple of years old, but already they have been outdated and are worth close to half what I paid for them on the used market.

If my amp breaks, now or ten years from now, Sanders will fix it for free. ML? Not so much. If I want to audition Sanders' new speakers, he will ship them to me for free and pay for return shipping if I decide I don't want them. He has already offered to do so. If I want to audition the CLX's? I would have to find a dealer that carries them. There is not one anywhere in the southeast that I am aware of. I am hoping that the store in Cullman lives up to their word that they are trying to get some in and hold an audition. That is the only way I will get to hear them anytime in the near future.

So please explain to me Fish what "more" I am getting for my dollar from ML than I am getting from Sanders.

 

[Rich]

This begs the question "what does he do with the amps you traded in for the upgrade?".

I expect he checks them out, refurbishes them if necessary, and sells them on the used equipment page of his website. He has an ESL amplifier on there right now for $1800 if anyone is interested, as well as a parasound amp and a Butler Monad at a great price. Here is the link:

Sanders Sound System -- Used Products

 

[User211]

Very good answer, Rich The implications were possibly not too good!

Basically this guy checks out good, I think.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Please explain. I agree that there are certain advantages to mass production and a larger factory of trained specialists, and the greater capital assets that ML has to work with. But I also see certain advantages to working with a smaller producer who creates a quality product and puts the customer first above all else.

As was mentioned earlier, you can trade your used two-channel Sanders amp for a 100% credit towards an upgrade on his monoblocks! Since when has ML offered anything like that? My Summits are just a couple of years old, but already they have been outdated and are worth close to half what I paid for them on the used market.

If my amp breaks, now or ten years from now, Sanders will fix it for free. ML? Not so much. If I want to audition Sanders' new speakers, he will ship them to me for free and pay for return shipping if I decide I don't want them. He has already offered to do so. If I want to audition the CLX's? I would have to find a dealer that carries them. There is not one anywhere in the southeast that I am aware of. I am hoping that the store in Cullman lives up to their word that they are trying to get some in and hold an audition. That is the only way I will get to hear them anytime in the near future.

So please explain to me Fish what "more" I am getting for my dollar from ML than I am getting from Sanders.

1) more product choices to fit your needs and budget
2) I think that there is a bit more technology built into the design of Martin Logan than the sanders speakers.
3) I just think they have a cool factor that other speakers do not have not just sanders

his warranty does sound great I will not argue there. I guess I am just biased to what I have .

 

[Gordon Gray]

That's a bit cryptic, Gordon. Can you tell us or provide a link to what you are talking about, please?

Anyway, the Tri-Vista also worked without flaw last night. Puzzled to say the least. I am very tempted to sell it whilst the going is good. But I don't think I could live with passing something on that I know may break again. But then I guess anything second hand could. Difficult one.

Also, my new TT setup had me listening in a kind of stunned disbelief last night. That's what its all about, I pondered!:rocker:

Hi User,

Sorry. I was not trying to be cryptic.

Mapleshade sells a CD treatment system.

First step. Clean disc with a MS product called Mikro-smooth. It's a mildly abrasive fluid that you apply and rub onto the play side. Takes out any irregular edges left from the pressing process.

Second. Two applications of Optrix. Sold by MS and Music Direct.

Third. Treat the disc with the MS Iconoclast, which is a static removal device.

I was very skeptical and tried all three products individually.

Bottom line is that, with all three steps, midrange glare is substantially reduced, there's an increase in the overall warmth of the sonics with a much more palatable, fuller mid / lower bass.

I don't listen to any cd's without first treating. The more revealing your system, the more audible the benefits. Highly recommended.

Also, MS offers a 30 day money back.

Goggle Mapleshade for access to their website, which contains more detail on each of the above products.

Also, if you don't have any of their cd's, you really should try one. If you are a jazz fan, Clifford Jordan / Live at Ethels is about as good a jazz recording in a live venue that's ever been recorded.

Finally, some folks are put off by Pierre's bravado when he advertises his products in the MS catalogue. Don't be and let your ears be the judge.

Hope that fills in the blanks.

GG

 

[Rich]

1) more product choices to fit your needs and budget

Agree with this one. But with a larger product line and lower budget items comes more mediocrity and cheaper construction as the lines are designed with budget considerations in mind. ML's lower end lines are all manufactured in China now.

And with a smaller boutique manufacturer it is easier to get custom versions of products that meet your personal needs. Roger will modify his products to accommodate your needs if it is reasonable to do so.

2) I think that there is a bit more technology built into the design of Martin Logan than the sanders speakers.

Is this true, or is this just some of MLs own marketing hype that has you thinking this? Perhaps there is more technology just because of MLs large R&D budget, so maybe this is a valid point. Although the proof is in the pudding, so I think you would have to audition both to see if it really made a difference. I haven't done that comparison so I can't speak to it.

3) I just think they have a cool factor that other speakers do not have not just sanders

Understood. This is, of course, personal opinion.

his warranty does sound great I will not argue there. I guess I am just biased to what I have .

Aren't we all!

 

[FISH_MAN]

I hope you all do not cringe at this but it is possible for the Chinese to produce just as good of a product as anybody they build to specs that a company gives them as long as martin logan requires high quality the will still reap the rewards of low labor cost and efficient factories. I hate to say it but I have found much of the USA manufacturing very sloppy just look again at the auto industry most American cars are pure crap compared to Asian competitors. why would a speaker be any different ??? the Chinese are not capable of winding a crossover lol

 

[C.A.P]

As I tend to agree a bit with the Asian market producing decent products in autos, However; Its not that way with HIGH end Audio gear. Show me a amp built like a PASS, Rowland, Krell or Macintosh. From that market.They all scramble for our high end gear and pay top $$$ for it. Hell ML has sold more CLX in that market than any where else.

Roger Sanders does well with what he has and I would not hesitate to try out his stuff. I would support a USA made product any day.

 

[Bernard]

I hope you all do not cringe at this but it is possible for the Chinese to produce just as good of a product as anybody they build to specs that a company gives them

There was an article a few issues back in TAS where some companies stated horror stories about what they experienced in having their products built in China: lower quality parts being substituted and the manufacturer pocketing the difference, to the extent that on IC's fake part numbers were silkscreened.

 

[Rich]

I hope you all do not cringe at this but it is possible for the Chinese to produce just as good of a product as anybody they build to specs that a company gives them as long as martin logan requires high quality the will still reap the rewards of low labor cost and efficient factories.

Actually, Fish, I think you are being a little naive here. It surely is possible for the Chinese to learn to manufacture quality high end audio gear, but it is just not the case currently. When we visited the ML factory, they made it clear that they were not comfortable having their high end gear manufactured over there. Just ask Jeff (tonepub) what his opinion of Vincent Audio is . . . you might get an earful. They are manufactured in China. Lots of other examples.

Besides, I don't want any melamine in my speakers.

 

[C.A.P]

Hell I have remotes built better than some of their gear !

 

[Craig]

As was mentioned earlier, you can trade your used two-channel Sanders amp for a 100% credit towards an upgrade on his monoblocks! Since when has ML offered anything like that? My Summits are just a couple of years old, but already they have been outdated and are worth close to half what I paid for them on the used market.

You can (but not anymore) do this at Tweeter's Sound Advice with their trade-up policy. Over the course of a few years I traded up from Aeon's to Ascent's to Odysseys to Cremonas to Summits. All with 100% trade-in value each year. Unfortunately, we're losing one of the best customer service stores since the whole Tweeter chain is officially closing the business and will be liquidating everything over the next several weeks. Right now deals are only 10% off but that will soon change.

 

[tonepub]

Please explain. I agree that there are certain advantages to mass production and a larger factory of trained specialists, and the greater capital assets that ML has to work with. But I also see certain advantages to working with a smaller producer who creates a quality product and puts the customer first above all else.

As was mentioned earlier, you can trade your used two-channel Sanders amp for a 100% credit towards an upgrade on his monoblocks! Since when has ML offered anything like that? My Summits are just a couple of years old, but already they have been outdated and are worth close to half what I paid for them on the used market.

If my amp breaks, now or ten years from now, Sanders will fix it for free. ML? Not so much. If I want to audition Sanders' new speakers, he will ship them to me for free and pay for return shipping if I decide I don't want them. He has already offered to do so. If I want to audition the CLX's? I would have to find a dealer that carries them. There is not one anywhere in the southeast that I am aware of. I am hoping that the store in Cullman lives up to their word that they are trying to get some in and hold an audition. That is the only way I will get to hear them anytime in the near future.

So please explain to me Fish what "more" I am getting for my dollar from ML than I am getting from Sanders.

All of what Roger is doing is great stuff, provided he's still in business ten years from now to fix your amplifiers.

A lot of small guys like this have gone under in the last 20 years (Audiere, Threshold, PS Audio 2 or 3 times, Hales Audio just to name a couple). It's a tough business.

Roger can afford to ship his stuff to you both ways at his expense because he's not paying a dealer to sell his products. And I'm guessing the amps are good enough (I certainly enjoyed them while they were here, but I wasn't interested in getting rid of my Premier 350 either) that not many people send them back.

Also, these amps are very new in their lifecycle and probably few if any have failed...YET. Ask any good electrical engineer and they will tell you that stuff blows up the minute you turn it on, after about 100 hours or about 1000 hours.

So, if Roger has a string of people sending the amps back, or a major string of field failures in the next year or two (this happened to ARC about ten years ago, they got a bad batch of capacitors and ended up recalling, repairing and re shipping about a million dollars worth of gear and it almost broke them), he could change this strategy or go under.

I'm not down on the guy, he's been very nice to me on the phone. But there is only so much work one person can do in a day and he's not a thirty year old guy. When he wanted to send us amps for review, we probably waited about a month. Conrad Johnson or ARC would have sent them that day.

You always take a risk with smaller mfrs. Also, because he's gone out of business once or twice (innersound), he may give you 100% trade in if you want a bigger amp, but what if you want to sell those Sanders amps and buy McIntosh? That's the real test of a products value.

I just know I've played it both ways over the last 30 years and I'm sticking with the big guys. I bought my CJ PV-1 32 years ago for $595 and sold it last year for $500. That's not bad depreciation long term for my money.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Actually, Fish, I think you are being a little naive here. It surely is possible for the Chinese to learn to manufacture quality high end audio gear, but it is just not the case currently. When we visited the ML factory, they made it clear that they were not comfortable having their high end gear manufactured over there. Just ask Jeff (tonepub) what his opinion of Vincent Audio is . . . you might get an earful. They are manufactured in China. Lots of other examples.

Besides, I don't want any melamine in my speakers.

just the devils advocate in me:devil:

I do hope martin logan is being careful

 

[amey01]

his warranty does sound great I will not argue there. I guess I am just biased to what I have .

His warranty certainly sounds good, but what if he's not around tomorrow to service that warranty? Certainly less of a chance of that with a larger company like ML.

 

[JonFo]

This whole thread make me think of a couple of points:

Roger is one of the seminal ESL designers and advocates. Heck, he wrote the book on ESL design and construction ;-)
That alone should give him cred and respect. He sure has mine.

His amp designs are unique and as noted by their happy owners, a very good match for our ML’s. I can’t wait to get mine.

The challenges of a small manufacturer are well known, but any company has to go through this phase. Gayle sure did back in the 80’s, and look at ML now.

What would happen if most ML owners decided that, you know, an amp designed for an ESL might be a good choice for an ESL, and sales of Rogers amps took off? Then he’d have a larger organization that might survive him, and much like ML after Gayle, there’d be a big happy cadre of users and factory support.