tonepub
Senior Member
If you are going to buy a 30/2 (one of the best in the world in my opinion), the new 30/12 is on the way!!!
Hmmmm.
Is Roger Sanders Losing The Plot?
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If you are going to buy a 30/2 (one of the best in the world in my opinion), the new 30/12 is on the way!!!
Hmmmm.
SCompRacer
Active member
Burke, just a slight clarification. The remote controlled active crossover bass amp rating is 600WPC @ 4 Ohms. The Seas woofers used in the TL bass modules are 4 Ohm.
The sweet spot is small, but I dispute the head in a vise. I usually sit still when in SOMA mode, so it doesn’t bother me at all. I accuse the poster of exaggerating their claim.
The sweet spot is small, but I dispute the head in a vise. I usually sit still when in SOMA mode, so it doesn’t bother me at all. I accuse the poster of exaggerating their claim.
RichTeer
Well-known member
I figured as much (though I wonder how the Series 312 tone arm compares to the Series V...)! Turntable breakdowns notwithstanding, an SME 30/2 (or any other turntable) is a long way away: before I can justify such a purchase, I'd have to upgrade my preamp, add a phono stage, upgrade my power amps, and upgrade my cables. And that's after I acquire a pair of Spires (or whatever)!
he has not been treated unfairly! just held up to what the extremely high standards of the typical Martin Logan owner audiophile . so we should back off I think not.
tonepub
Senior Member
If you don't have world class everything, the 30/2 is overkill.
The SME 10 is fantastic and not a bad deal at all!
RichTeer
Well-known member
That, finances permitting, is my end game.
The system I aspire to (trying to keep one foot in reality, assuming I stay in the same house with its space considerations, and ignoring forthcoming products) is: SME 30/2/Series V/Air Tight PC1 front end, ARC Phono 7 phono stage, ARC Ref 3 preamp, a pair of ARC Ref 210 power amps, and a pair of ML CLXs. All cabled together using Nordost Valhalla, and power conditioning by the PS Audio Power Plant Premier.
Back in reality, I once listened to (many moons ago) the original SME Model 20. Very impressive. I also had an SME Series V arm on my Roksan Xerxes. The Series V is a beautifully made piece of audio engineering art.
Alright, Fish . . . let's apply those same standards to ML:
Regarding Massless drivers and Zero distortion, the Martin Logan Website FAQ says:
So ML basically says the same thing: massless drivers and zero distortion. OK, so what about forever-lasting non-failing ESLs? Well, as pointed out above, Roger Sanders backs this statement up with a lifetime, transferrable warranty. ML offers a five-year non-transferrable limited warranty. 'nuff said.
As for amplifier wattage, you may or may not think 1400 watts is necessary, but you need to understand that this is your personal opinion. Some people are happy with lower wattage amps; others prefer the headroom of higher wattage amps. Much depends on listening preferences, size and shape of listening room, and many other factors. I personally have Summits and have them connected to Roger Sanders' esl monoblocs (800 wpc into 8 ohms) and I couldn't be happier. I also own a Pass Labs X-350.5 and a CJ Premier 140 tube amp, but it is the Sanders amps that are powering my main system.
The ML website states that probably 100 to 200 watts of power is sufficient for MLs. In my experience, that is not sufficient power from most solid state amps to drive MLs without clipping. Some, yes, but not most. So I don't see this as marketing hype so much as Roger's opinion as an electrical engineer and the opinions of many others who have owned and listened to MLs.
As for marketing hype, the ML webpage also contains this sentence:
So I would have to say that Roger's marketing claims are no more outlandish than ML's, and the comments in this thread that pretend otherwise are ill-informed. Roger makes some great products: speakers, amps, and preamps. And I can personally attest that his customer service is better than anyone in the business. Period.
User211
Well-known member
Hi Rich,
We all know you are very pro Roger, Rich, and very happy with his amps.
With regards to your ML points...
I think "essentially massless" is NOT the same as "massless" i.e. the former implies some mass, but for all intents and purposes it can be ignored. That is NOT the same as saying the drivers have no mass.
As for "there is no time lag that can distort the music", well that is untrue, of course there is! We have a thin mylar film pushing substantial quantities of air - that film is therefore subject to drag, and therefore distorted in the time domain to some extent. The level of drag depends on how strong the "pushing" force is, but there will be some.
You have to excuse me - I am a complete nutcase who has spent many years writing requirements / designing / implementing / testing safety critical software for both high performance military jets and civilian aircraft (and other applications) alike. Whilst that doesn't make me a genius, I am a bit exacting in what I expect from other engineers. That was the crux of my point, really.
Engineers stretching the truth is one thing - the ML marketing department I can forgive, purely because they aren't engineers and are trained to stretch the truth in the product or company's favour.
Granted Roger probably can't afford a marketing department... so he makes do and tries to say what he think they would say, I guess.
Don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for him. He is running his own business producing world class products to the best of his ability, I expect. OK it won't be as well made as some ML stuff because he don't have the same level of resource as Jeff indicated. But that is just a reality he has to live with until he can build up the company.
I wish him every success as the man has the courage to go out into the world and fend for himself. In fact it takes one hell of a lot of guts and talent to put yourself up against a company with ML's resources and actually make some sales. But I couldn't help but baulk a bit at what he was coming out with... sorry, just the way I felt when I watched the video.
Having said all that it might seem strange, and I would accept the criticism, that I listen to amps that are technically below par. Well, I just put that down to "factor X", really i.e. the bit that I don't really understand. But I do know I love 'em to bits and prefer them to higher power amps I have heard with my Logans. That doesn't mean there aren't amps out there of that ilk that I would think were better overall compromise than the ones I have given the chance to hear them in my system.
Justin
We all know you are very pro Roger, Rich, and very happy with his amps.
With regards to your ML points...
I think "essentially massless" is NOT the same as "massless" i.e. the former implies some mass, but for all intents and purposes it can be ignored. That is NOT the same as saying the drivers have no mass.
As for "there is no time lag that can distort the music", well that is untrue, of course there is! We have a thin mylar film pushing substantial quantities of air - that film is therefore subject to drag, and therefore distorted in the time domain to some extent. The level of drag depends on how strong the "pushing" force is, but there will be some.
You have to excuse me - I am a complete nutcase who has spent many years writing requirements / designing / implementing / testing safety critical software for both high performance military jets and civilian aircraft (and other applications) alike. Whilst that doesn't make me a genius, I am a bit exacting in what I expect from other engineers. That was the crux of my point, really.
Engineers stretching the truth is one thing - the ML marketing department I can forgive, purely because they aren't engineers and are trained to stretch the truth in the product or company's favour.
Granted Roger probably can't afford a marketing department... so he makes do and tries to say what he think they would say, I guess.
Don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for him. He is running his own business producing world class products to the best of his ability, I expect. OK it won't be as well made as some ML stuff because he don't have the same level of resource as Jeff indicated. But that is just a reality he has to live with until he can build up the company.
I wish him every success as the man has the courage to go out into the world and fend for himself. In fact it takes one hell of a lot of guts and talent to put yourself up against a company with ML's resources and actually make some sales. But I couldn't help but baulk a bit at what he was coming out with... sorry, just the way I felt when I watched the video.
Having said all that it might seem strange, and I would accept the criticism, that I listen to amps that are technically below par. Well, I just put that down to "factor X", really i.e. the bit that I don't really understand. But I do know I love 'em to bits and prefer them to higher power amps I have heard with my Logans. That doesn't mean there aren't amps out there of that ilk that I would think were better overall compromise than the ones I have given the chance to hear them in my system.
Justin
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Rich, very true, but........ this is simply "Marketing 101", IMO. Just look at how Hyundia and Kia got themselves into the US auto market. Besides one must judge ANY warranty by the company that offers it, God forbid something happens to Roger.......well, you get my drift.
User211
Well-known member
I thought I'd make some joke about if things go wrong for him, he could end up having to serve fries for the Colonel, but decided that would be particularly bad taste!:ROFL:
Cruel, I know. Anything for a laugh though. Or not, as the case may be!
Cruel, I know. Anything for a laugh though. Or not, as the case may be!
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I was not sharp shooting roger on the technical end just a broad observation on the overall look of his products.
like I said earlier the one thing I do like is the way his stators look" the squares and lines "
like I said earlier the one thing I do like is the way his stators look" the squares and lines "
tonepub
Senior Member
And in all fairness, his amps were very good. Not the be all and end all, but very good and certainly worth the money...
I think what roger needs is some entry level stuff that is still of good sound quality to help get him going into the mainstream and help to subsidies research
and development of his flagship products. this would put him into the hands of more listeners
and development of his flagship products. this would put him into the hands of more listeners
That is true. I am very pro-Roger, just as I am very pro-ML. In both cases, it comes from direct experience with superb products and excellent customer service.
Ummm? Could you possibly split hairs any finer here? "Essentially massless" is just fine in your book, while "massless" is over-the-top marketing hyperbole? Methinks thou doth protest too much.
Which makes my point that Roger is not alone in exaggerating the benefits of electrostatic speakers.
Roger does design, engineering, building, marketing, sales, and customer service, not just for speakers, but for amps and preamps as well. So you might want to cut him some slack if he isn't the best at everything. He does a pretty darn good job, I would say, considering his multitude of responsibilities and his lack of resources.
Not a problem, and I am not trying to discount your opinions. I am sure Roger will appreciate the feedback if he reads this thread. But I just wanted to bring a dose of reality back to the conversation that the things Roger was being accused of in this thread weren't that out of line, especially when compared to ML's own marketing hype. I don't think ML gets a pass just because they have a marketing department and Roger is an engineer, so he "should" know better. He is doing his own marketing as best he can. And the statements he makes in his promotional videos aren't that out of line with the hype of other high-end manufacturers.
This is an excellent point, Dave. As good as Roger's warranty is, I expect it is only good for as long as Roger is around (brings new meaning to the term "lifetime" warranty). Having said that, as long as Roger is around, he will support his products. He still supports his Innersound products, although the company went defunct a while ago.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Please try the Mapleshade / 3 step process.
If your system is articulate, the benefits, IMHO, will be obvious.
GG
User211
Well-known member
That's a bit cryptic, Gordon. Can you tell us or provide a link to what you are talking about, please?
Anyway, the Tri-Vista also worked without flaw last night. Puzzled to say the least. I am very tempted to sell it whilst the going is good. But I don't think I could live with passing something on that I know may break again. But then I guess anything second hand could. Difficult one.
Also, my new TT setup had me listening in a kind of stunned disbelief last night. That's what its all about, I pondered!:rocker:
Anyway, the Tri-Vista also worked without flaw last night. Puzzled to say the least. I am very tempted to sell it whilst the going is good. But I don't think I could live with passing something on that I know may break again. But then I guess anything second hand could. Difficult one.
Also, my new TT setup had me listening in a kind of stunned disbelief last night. That's what its all about, I pondered!:rocker:
Bernard
Well-known member
Isn't it amazing how that happens with grim regularity with turntables? :music:
music again
Well-known member
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Another happy Sanders customer
I too feel that a lot manufactures hype their products, and possibly Roger is no different. They are ALL trying to sell products.
I just want to add that I have Roger's 2 channel amp driving my Summits and I love the piece. It's got plenty of power to spare, dynamic as all get out, physically sized so it actually fits in a rack or similar audio "furniture" like Salamander, runs cool to the touch, AND has a lifetime transferable warranty. Want mono blocs? He'll give you 100% what you paid for the 2 channel amp to upgrade. Say what? It's true.
Roger is always willing to answer your questions and is a trustworthy individual as far as I can guage.
J. M.
I too feel that a lot manufactures hype their products, and possibly Roger is no different. They are ALL trying to sell products.
I just want to add that I have Roger's 2 channel amp driving my Summits and I love the piece. It's got plenty of power to spare, dynamic as all get out, physically sized so it actually fits in a rack or similar audio "furniture" like Salamander, runs cool to the touch, AND has a lifetime transferable warranty. Want mono blocs? He'll give you 100% what you paid for the 2 channel amp to upgrade. Say what? It's true.
Roger is always willing to answer your questions and is a trustworthy individual as far as I can guage.
J. M.
Horchem1972
Well-known member
Give the guy a break.
He may have used massless instead of virtually massless.I personally think there is a little nit picking going on.I think the people who really do not like Mr. Sanders are making too big of a deal out of it.The question is why are his panels guaranteed for life and Martin Logans are not?How can he offer a tranferable warranty but ML cannot?He may have misused the right words but he doesn't deserve to be burnt at the stake or ridiculed.Every manufacturer states their product are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
He may have used massless instead of virtually massless.I personally think there is a little nit picking going on.I think the people who really do not like Mr. Sanders are making too big of a deal out of it.The question is why are his panels guaranteed for life and Martin Logans are not?How can he offer a tranferable warranty but ML cannot?He may have misused the right words but he doesn't deserve to be burnt at the stake or ridiculed.Every manufacturer states their product are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
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