Have you ever heard a digital recording meet or exceed an analog recording?

[Gordon Gray]

Regarding quality red book, I hope some of you have had the chance to listen to the ECM jazz recordings. The Tord Gustavsen Trio, the Keith Jarret Trio, and Marc Feldmen (What Exit) come to mind. The first two are very easy to listen to, the latter takes some time.

In the vocal / jazz category, Patricia Barber and Holly Cole sound quite good IMHO.

Then there are boutique labels such as the JVC XRCD series and the Mapleshade recordings.

We are fortunate that we have great "quality" driven recording selections in both mediums that are actually quite musical and approachable.

GG

 

[tonepub]

come on man is that what you really think?

whats really close to put a number to it?

Yes, that's what I think. I would put the Naim CD555 within 5% of my analog front end (Spiral Groove SG-2/Triplanar/Lyra Skala/Nagra VPS w/VFS) if the software is equally good.

And, I can listen to the Naim for an 8 hour day and not long for vinyl, provided the recordings are good.

I've owned the 555 for two years now and am as happy with it as the day I bought it.

I am investigating a couple of really super duper phono stages (the Naim Superline/Super cap2 is one of them) that take analog a little further, so I will report when I find something out.

But in the current system, I'm really pretty equally happy listening to either!

 

[MiTT]

Indeed... Where's Tim? Probably bored of making the same points over and over again. But he is "trying" to take a better view of digital

Sorry Justin, had to jump on an early flight to New York this morning where I'll be all week. I spent the afternoon at the MoMA and am just now catching up with my e-mails and forum browsing. I'll post an opinion as soon as I have a chance to digest what everyone is posting.

 

[David Matz]

Regarding quality red book, I hope some of you have had the chance to listen to the ECM jazz recordings. The Tord Gustavsen Trio, the Keith Jarret Trio, and Marc Feldmen (What Exit) come to mind. The first two are very easy to listen to, the latter takes some time.

In the vocal / jazz category, Patricia Barber and Holly Cole sound quite good IMHO.

Then there are boutique labels such as the JVC XRCD series and the Mapleshade recordings.

We are fortunate that we have great "quality" driven recording selections in both mediums that are actually quite musical and approachable.

GG

Thanks, Gordon. I was actually looking for some great recordings, rather than the direction the thread went.

I guess it's somewhat fun to read the other stuff too.

 

[David Matz]

Yes, that's what I think. I would put the Naim CD555 within 5% of my analog front end (Spiral Groove SG-2/Triplanar/Lyra Skala/Nagra VPS w/VFS) if the software is equally good.

And, I can listen to the Naim for an 8 hour day and not long for vinyl, provided the recordings are good.

I've owned the 555 for two years now and am as happy with it as the day I bought it.

I am investigating a couple of really super duper phono stages (the Naim Superline/Super cap2 is one of them) that take analog a little further, so I will report when I find something out.

But in the current system, I'm really pretty equally happy listening to either!

Hi Jeff,

Does the Naim make cd's sound analog? It seems to me - at least from reading the reviews of cd players like arc ref 8 and the expensive dcs stuff - is that they engineer the cd players to mimic analog. Do you find that true?

Thanks

 

[tonepub]

Hi Jeff,

Does the Naim make cd's sound analog? It seems to me - at least from reading the reviews of cd players like arc ref 8 and the expensive dcs stuff - is that they engineer the cd players to mimic analog. Do you find that true?

Thanks

I'd say the Naim has a very analog feel to it. Every one of my crazed analog friends that have heard it have said they could give up their turntable for it..

I wouldn't go that far, but it has a natural tonality and decay where I don't think to myself "that sounds really good for digital", I just think it sounds good.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Yes, that's what I think. I would put the Naim CD555 within 5% of my analog front end (Spiral Groove SG-2/Triplanar/Lyra Skala/Nagra VPS w/VFS) if the software is equally good.

that's a bold statement

well as they say different people have different opinions and variety is the spice of life.I really have not played long enough with the records to really have an authoritative position so I will leave that one up to the pro's but as for now I will still respectfully disagree.

BTW sometimes that 5% is what it is all about lol

 

[tonepub]

well, I'll stick by it....

I certainly have plenty of CD's that sound better than the LP. Again, it just depends on which version got better treatment in the recording and mastering phase....

of course the 5% is what it's about and that's why I feel that on the very best recordings, analog still has an edge.

However, I had to go very far up on the analog side of the fence to get more natural playback than the 555.

 

[DrJRapp]

I certainly have plenty of CD's that sound better than the LP. Again, it just depends on which version got better treatment in the recording and mastering phase....

There is another aspect of this debate that needs consideration. Some of you make your comparisons with what I will call "hot stampers" or vinyl copies that are the cream of the crop. There is a HUGE variation in manufacturing quality in vinyl, with the earliest copies from a given stamper, from an early mother off a near virgin master being the best, and later copies degrading, sometimes considerably. It's like a game of roulette, sometimes you win big, sometimes you win small and sometimes you loose...with everything in between.

Buying a black pizza often resembles what Forrest Gump said...like a box of chocolates...you never know what you're gonna get. Some of you may enjoy that challenge and the "thrill of the hunt" for the best disc possible, however, many of us just want to enjoy the music.

The advantage goes to CDs in the consistency that is achievable in the manufacturing arena, and, for most of us it is huge. Given equal quality mastering, you stand a much better chance getting a good copy of a CD than a good black pizza.

If someone here on the ML forum (member A) gets really excited about a given recording (from a hot stamper) , and the rest of us run out an buy it, the chances are that only a few (if any) of us will have the same auditory experience as member A.

 

[tonepub]

Excellent observation and completely correct!

 

[FISH_MAN]

Buying a black pizza often resembles what Forrest Gump said...like a box of chocolates...you never know what you're gonna get. Some of you may enjoy that challenge and the "thrill of the hunt" for the best disc possible, however, many of us just want to enjoy the music.

The advantage goes to CDs in the consistency that is achievable in the manufacturing arena, and, for most of us it is huge. Given equal quality mastering, you stand a much better chance getting a good copy of a CD than a good black pizza.

do like wine? well I do and its very similar to black pizza sometimes a cheap bottle turns into a favorite! I am not going to stop drinking wine because of a few crappy bottles once in a while.I do not obsess with the recording believe me I have loved music for a long time.

"The advantage goes to CDs in the consistency that is achievable in the manufacturing arena, and, for most of us it is huge."

the consistence is the problem most of my cd's sound the same uke:

I like a little variety if that means a crappy disc once in a while so be it.
don't get me wrong cd's are great I just think the pizza sounds better and is more fun

 

[FISH_MAN]

well, I'll stick by it....

I certainly have plenty of CD's that sound better than the LP. Again, it just depends on which version got better treatment in the recording and mastering phase....

of course the 5% is what it's about and that's why I feel that on the very best recordings, analog still has an edge.

However, I had to go very far up on the analog side of the fence to get more natural playback than the 555.

so I basically I have to spend like $28,000.00 on a CD player to get the best of both worlds is that what you are telling me? I thought to a certain degree the whole idea the digital format was created was to allow high quality playback without the need for ridiculously expensive equipment.the idea of that player seems counter intuitive to me I sure would like to hear one of these !!!! sure looks cool tonepub

 

[tonepub]

not neccessarily, but that's what I had to go to to get a digital source that I liked as much as the $40,000 analog front end I'm listening to.

It's all relative...

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Fish,

I gather from your posts that you clearly prefer analogue versus digital. I certainly respect that position.

Having said that and with all due respect, if all of your CD's sound more or less the same, have you ever considered that your digital source may be in need of an upgrade?

My personal observations, regarding variations in CD sound quality and being able to differentiate, are not consistent with yours.

GG

 

[FISH_MAN]

Hi Fish,

I gather from your posts that you clearly prefer analogue versus digital. I certainly respect that position.

Having said that and with all due respect, if all of your CD's sound more or less the same, have you ever considered that your digital source may be in need of an upgrade?

My personal observations, regarding variations in CD sound quality and being able to differentiate, are not consistent with yours.

GG

I think my digital source is just fine the way it is.to be honest I think spending any more on my digital source would be throwing good money after bad.

just remember I am not some old stubborn fart stuck in his ways I use to be all for the digital stuff until heard some tasty black pizza.also remember the preface of the original question we are talking red book not sacd that is much better

 

[DrJRapp]

I think my digital source is just fine the way it is.to be honest I think spending any more on my digital source would be throwing good money after bad.

Are you speaking of the Rotel or the Marantz? Both of them are characterized by their very smooth and uninvolving presentation. Neither of them were poor choices, just poor choices for what you seem to like. I have to agree with you that black pizza spun on even an entry level table will sound more involving than either of those digital players. And, that Ortofon cartridge of yours does a great job of making some poor quality black pizza sound better...unfortunately at the cost of detail. I have the 2M Blue in one of my systems, and the Blue and Bronze are very similar in that regard.

Slightly less than a year ago I was in about the same position you are, ie: top notch speakers, amps and control pre, being fed signals from mediocre front end gear... until Jeff (Tonepub) opened my eyes to the imbalance. You don't know what you are missing in the digital domain. Nor do you need to spend $28K to get there.

 

[C.A.P]

so I basically I have to spend like $28,000.00 on a CD player to get the best of both worlds is that what you are telling me? I thought to a certain degree the whole idea the digital format was created was to allow high quality playback without the need for ridiculously expensive equipment.the idea of that player seems counter intuitive to me I sure would like to hear one of these !!!! sure looks cool tonepub

There is some wieght in the statement,"you get what you pay for" ! I had many cheaper players. I was very unsatisfied with them at all times. Now when you get digital done right its amazing. If one is smart they shop the used market and take advantage of HUGE savings !

I think my digital source is just fine the way it is.to be honest I think spending any more on my digital source would be throwing good money after bad.

No way to compare a $1500 player to a real contender. Also upstream components make a huge difference in sound of digital. Not to knock Rotel but its not the best amp to compare. YES a LP will sound better with mid range upstream ancillaries. Warmth that is missing from other components.

HT equipment is not gonna give you the warmth in 2 channel as a dedicated 2 channel amp will.

just remember I am not some old stubborn fart stuck in his ways I use to be all for the digital stuff until heard some tasty black pizza.also remember the preface of the original question we are talking red book not sacd that is much better

Are you speaking of the Rotel or the Marantz? Both of them are characterized by their very smooth and uninvolving presentation. Neither of them were poor choices, just poor choices for what you seem to like. I have to agree with you that black pizza spun on even an entry level table will sound more involving than either of those digital players.

Slightly less than a year ago I was in about the same position you are, ie: top notch speakers, amps and control pre, being fed signals from mediocre front end gear... until Jeff (Tonepub) opened my eyes to the imbalance. You don't know what you are missing in the digital domain. Nor do you need to spend $28K to get there.

Very well said , It re iterates my post ! It starts up stream and then you get the warmth !

 

[FISH_MAN]

Are you speaking of the Rotel or the Marantz? Both of them are characterized by their very smooth and uninvolving presentation. Neither of them were poor choices, just poor choices for what you seem to like. I have to agree with you that black pizza spun on even an entry level table will sound more involving than either of those digital players. And, that Ortofon cartridge of yours does a great job of making some poor quality black pizza sound better...unfortunately at the cost of detail. I have the 2M Blue in one of my systems, and the Blue and Bronze are very similar in that regard.

Slightly less than a year ago I was in about the same position you are, ie: top notch speakers, amps and control pre, being fed signals from mediocre front end gear... until Jeff (Tonepub) opened my eyes to the imbalance. You don't know what you are missing in the digital domain. Nor do you need to spend $28K to get there.

what player do you prefer? what does it do that the Marantz does not and how?

 

[DrJRapp]

what player do you prefer? what does it do that the Marantz does not and how?

It's not what I prefer, but what you (seem to) prefer. It's not about what they can or can't do....it's about how they sound. You like the reach out and grab you (forward) sound you are getting from black pizza when played through the Ortofon, yet your digital source choices reflect players known for being smooth,somewhat dark (Rotel) and polite and laid back (Marantz). They may be great choices for someone with more aggressive speakers, like Klipsch for example. However, both of those players are not letting you get anywhere near the best from your Spires. My own experience: I auditioned the Marantz player that is a click up from yours...(I think it was the SA23) with Usher Dancers and Klipsch Reference 83s, inj the store it sounded great with Redbook. I brought it home to my Summits and it sounded about as you describe, good, but uninspiring.



You would probably be very happy with what I use, which is a Meridian 808, but that's a bit pricey ($5-6K used). Another alternative would be some of the Cary players in the $3K range, or an Esoteric (not quite as forward). I'm sure there are others who will jump into this discussion with recommendations.

I'll take the risk of saying that IMHO you have probably over damped your room a bit with your acoustic treatments trying to get rid of whatever ghosts you were chasing that MAY originate in your gear. The room environment needs more life.


By the way...I'm in startup mode on an Oceanic 29 Nano reef setup...what can I do to accelerate base rock to live rock transformation?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Fish,

My comments / experiences apply to the sound of red book.

GG