Expression 13A, Source, Motion series Atmos tops and sides

[Duke]

Once you get your new system optimized, would you please send us a graph of it? I am interested to know what you find to be best for you and use that as a benchmark target response.

 

[Fidji99]

So more and more I get sucked into Atmos Music and concert BR. One thing sticks out - new Atmos mixes are much much better then their stereo counterparts. I mean like much better - usually difference in Dynamic Range is lij 6 or even more dB which is a lot.

One of the best ones - P Gabriel - great music, great sound - disc to show off your multichannel.

also some latest pieces in my collection - Porcupine tree and Santana are fabulous

Another Porcupine Tree and Tori Amos

 

[Fidji99]

So it has finally happened - I got installed Waveforming by Trinnov in their Early Access [you need to apply and get approval, to be within subwoofer placement guidelines].

and this is the result - no bass traps/resonators, all the room modes removed. BTW Waveforming allows you to adjust decay times to tune to the rest od the room, this is "average" middle setting. @JonFo , when you will be doing your next HT remodeling, make sure you have WF setup. It is like nothing I have heard before in terms of bass accuracy, detail and quality. Group Delay non-existent, seamless crossover to Mains and Center without any ripple.

I am just listening to the music - and never heard so much detail before. It is like whole frequency range is one electrostatic panel playing down to 12Hz.

If I should compare the impact on SQ - it is more remarkable than upgrading from 13A's to 15A's.

It requires quite tedious calibration [17 measurement positions x 8 subs] but the result is just amazing. Also seat-to-seat - see the result of left-middle-right of my sofa ...

 

[ttocs]

It requires quite tedious calibration [17 measurement positions x 8 subs] but the result is just amazing. Also seat-to-seat - see the result of left-middle-right of my sofa ...

So would you say that the Trinnov Waveforming system needs to have the subs setup "just right" in order to work at all, or, is it a system that is forgiving enough to allow for imperfect setups to be improved such that the result would still be better anything else?

 

[Fidji99]

So would you say that the Trinnov Waveforming system needs to have the subs setup "just right" in order to work at all, or, is it a system that is forgiving enough to allow for imperfect setups to be improved such that the result would still be better anything else?

This are the guidelines from Trinnov -

https://www.trinnov.com/en/subwoofer-guidelines/
as you can see there are several options of layouts, with expected performance, one thing they have in common is the Emitter {front wall] - Absorber [rear wall] arrangement needed for Waveforming to work. So it is really suitable only for dedicated rooms, where you can place subs on wall/in wall, which is another important limitation - free standing subs do not work.

My setup is considered borderline acceptable for WF, and actually guys from Trinnov were quite happy, as it worked better than they expected in my room.

When WF was announced, lot of Trinnov owners were pissed off [kind of], as even lot of high-end home theaters, that were designed e.g. with Harman Sound Field in mind, are not suitable. What I understand, Trinnov is further developing the system to be usable also for more standard setups, but this will still require some time [read 2-3 years min].

Their current roadmap is - "Pressurisation" [ Trinnov adds major update to WaveForming at ISE 2024 ], which significantly improves performance below first modal frequency. next priority is integration of infra-subs, that are quite popular in US, e.g. Harbottle 24 in or Ascendos 24 and 32 in sub, combined with use of woofers in normal [non-sub] speakers [similar to Dirac ART] - this is what I have been told.

In my opinion - Dirac ART will be the solution for normal rooms and setups, once exclusivity of Storm Audio expires, you can expect it to arrive into mainstream AV processors. You get 80% of the performace for 20% of cost [or smth similar].

 

[Robert D]

This are the guidelines from Trinnov -

https://www.trinnov.com/en/subwoofer-guidelines/
as you can see there are several options of layouts, with expected performance, one thing they have in common is the Emitter {front wall] - Absorber [rear wall] arrangement needed for Waveforming to work. So it is really suitable only for dedicated rooms, where you can place subs on wall/in wall, which is another important limitation - free standing subs do not work.

My setup is considered borderline acceptable for WF, and actually guys from Trinnov were quite happy, as it worked better than they expected in my room.

When WF was announced, lot of Trinnov owners were pissed off [kind of], as even lot of high-end home theaters, that were designed e.g. with Harman Sound Field in mind, are not suitable. What I understand, Trinnov is further developing the system to be usable also for more standard setups, but this will still require some time [read 2-3 years min].

Their current roadmap is - "Pressurisation" [ Trinnov adds major update to WaveForming at ISE 2024 ], which significantly improves performance below first modal frequency. next priority is integration of infra-subs, that are quite popular in US, e.g. Harbottle 24 in or Ascendos 24 and 32 in sub, combined with use of woofers in normal [non-sub] speakers [similar to Dirac ART] - this is what I have been told.

In my opinion - Dirac ART will be the solution for normal rooms and setups, once exclusivity of Storm Audio expires, you can expect it to arrive into mainstream AV processors. You get 80% of the performace for 20% of cost [or smth similar].

Did you go with in wall subs? I'm a bit prejudiced against those because it doesn't make logical sense, but it sounds like it works best with a high end system like Trinnov. If you are using them, what brand did you go with?
To me the subs would shake the hell out of the wall and the wall would become a giant speaker. Obviously that's not the case. Even a free standing sub can shake walls bad.

 

[Fidji99]

Did you go with in wall subs? I'm a bit prejudiced against those because it doesn't make logical sense, but it sounds like it works best with a high end system like Trinnov. If you are using them, what brand did you go with?
To me the subs would shake the hell out of the wall and the wall would become a giant speaker. Obviously that's not the case. Even a free standing sub can shake walls bad.

No, still the same subs setup - as in the photos on the previous page - is more "on-wall" 35cm deep boxes, passive, with external amps [to reduce the size of box and keep the volume requirement]
Ugly looks - great sound ;-)

Built by local EU integrator with B&C drivers same like PSA. You know, supporting local farmers & artisans [B&C is Firenze company], same as Powersoft [IPAL amps]. Everybody with PSA sub has a piece of Tuscany at home.

 

[Robert D]

No, still the same subs setup - as in the photos on the previous page - is more "on-wall" 35cm deep boxes, passive, with external amps [to reduce the size of box and keep the volume requirement]
Ugly looks - great sound ;-)

Built by local EU integrator with B&C drivers same like PSA. You know, supporting local farmers & artisans [B&C is Firenze company], same as Powersoft [IPAL amps]. Everybody with PSA sub has a piece of Tuscany at home.

Oh yes! I forgot you told us about that. My 21 inch PSA sub is great. My family had a wonderful 2 week trip to Italy in the summer of 2019. Our favorite city was Florence. I rented a car and drove around. Your highways there are nice! The most beautiful town and area was Sorento. I'm sure you're enjoying your great Italian woofers and amps.
Which size woofer did you go with?

 

[ttocs]

Their current roadmap is - "Pressurisation" [ Trinnov adds major update to WaveForming at ISE 2024 ], which significantly improves performance below first modal frequency. next priority is integration of infra-subs, that are quite popular in US, e.g. Harbottle 24 in or Ascendos 24 and 32 in sub, combined with use of woofers in normal [non-sub] speakers [similar to Dirac ART] - this is what I have been told.

In my opinion - Dirac ART will be the solution for normal rooms and setups, once exclusivity of Storm Audio expires, you can expect it to arrive into mainstream AV processors. You get 80% of the performace for 20% of cost [or smth similar].

Thanks for the detailed info!

When you get a chance sometime, could you please post an Impulse plot?

 

[Duke]

I think that is a remarkable outcome and well worth the effort.

 

[Fidji99]

Thanks for the detailed info!

When you get a chance sometime, could you please post an Impulse plot?

It is real, I swear - 8 subs. Magic. When people talk about "quick, punchy bass" this is it.

and overlayed with "before" - same sub configurationn and placement

 

[Fidji99]

and this is L-C-R control measurement in MLP - this is just for calibration purposes - target curve is flat. Crossover at 80Hz.

 

[Fidji99]

I think that is a remarkable outcome and well worth the effort.

Thanks a lot. It was almost exactly 1 year, journey started on ISE 2023 [smth like CEDIA] and next week there is ISE 2024.

 

[ttocs]

That impulse response, all I can say is WOW!

 

[Fidji99]

That impulse response, all I can say is WOW!

This is the tech explained - French geek Arnaud [trinnov] talking to Gene from Audioholics.



BTW this is how measurement pattern looks like - half day work [4 x 5 x 3 different heights = 60 measurement positions ... ]

 

[JonFo]

That impulse response, all I can say is WOW!

Ditto!

The level of impulse control at low-frequencies is amazing. I've never seen a subwoofer IR that smooth; congrats.

 

[JonFo]

@JonFo , when you will be doing your next HT remodeling, make sure you have WF setup. It is like nothing I have heard before in terms of bass accuracy, detail and quality. Group Delay non-existent, seamless crossover to Mains and Center without any ripple.

I am just listening to the music - and never heard so much detail before. It is like whole frequency range is one electrostatic panel playing down to 12Hz.

If I should compare the impact on SQ - it is more remarkable than upgrading from 13A's to 15A's.

That is one beautiful spectrograph; I'd frame that sucker !

I'd been reading about DBA theory for over a decade and considered going that route if I moved or remodeled.
The way Trinnov integrates a DBA and takes it to the next level is impressive.

My challenge is my front wall has two doors in it, as the equipment room is on the other side. So, the front array would require removing those doors, making the room inaccessible.
My other challenge is my main sub is an Infinite Baffle, and those are rather hard to move

So I will likely keep my dual-sub + MBM setup for a while as it's pretty clean, and the acoustic treatments manage the bass.
What I will play around with is Dirac ART and DLBC on a Marantz AV10, hopefully by this summer.

 

[Fidji99]

That is one beautiful spectrograph; I'd frame that sucker !

I'd been reading about DBA theory for over a decade and considered going that route if I moved or remodeled.
The way Trinnov integrates a DBA and takes it to the next level is impressive.

My challenge is my front wall has two doors in it, as the equipment room is on the other side. So, the front array would require removing those doors, making the room inaccessible.
My other challenge is my main sub is an Infinite Baffle, and those are rather hard to move

So I will likely keep my dual-sub + MBM setup for a while as it's pretty clean, and the acoustic treatments manage the bass.
What I will play around with is Dirac ART and DLBC on a Marantz AV10, hopefully by this summer.

Heard DLBC in 2 installation - not fit for purpose. Maybe for some living room setup. Sounded like poorly implemented MSO.

ART is different, have heard it in 5.1 setup on Storm [YG Acoustics speakers .... ] and it was amazing, how it transformed, what would normally be awful HT with randomly placed speakers.

One thing that I kind of do not appreciate in Dirac as a system, is the blackbox nature of it, at least compared to Trinnov where you can tweak last little parameter. More of a fun fact - you have 7 parameters just determine how relative volume of speakers will be measured and adjusted.

 

[Fidji99]

Additions to the gear:
1) DAC/Streaming - subjectivist/deeply hidden Golden Ear took over for a while as I wanted to round up my setup with a piece od audio jewellery. Intended use is external DAC for Trinnov
Deciding/listening/comparing - either in my home setup, or in studios, or couple of visits was real fun.
- Moon 780D2 - nope, something terribly wrong with this one - sounded like it was broken - bass completely out of control
- dCs Bartok - nothing special, nothing screaming "you must have it'
- Chord Dave - loved it, only downside was awkward design, and really long latency - Trinnov showed my speakers 38 m away [110ft] ....
- Lampizator GoldenGate - nah, everything sounded the same through it - like if you use the same spices for every dish. But I get why some people feel strong attraction to it - sounds is beautiful.
I cold have go forever, as there are hundreds of brands/models out there.
But final decision was simple - my trusted Linn and their new Organik DAC. It has everything I need - Dual Mono, long term support, superb looks and build, and on top is distrinuted by ML dealer, so also a good price.

Linn Selekt Edition Dual Mono Organik. If you have a chance and are in the hunt for high end DAC - give it a try. I use ti as DAC only, but it is swiss knife - fully modular, several levels of DAC boards, streaner, pre-amp even multichannel 5.1 DAC

here some review https://www.stereonet.com/reviews/linn-selekt-dsm-edition-hub-review usual stuff, more interesting as features description

 

[Fidji99]

2) some time ago I went into the direction of D Class amps - first Hypex, then Purifi. What I really appreciate about them is absolute silence and transparency, that goes well with electrostats, as it allows for all the details to be retrieved from the music. On top Purifi amps have variable gain optimised for 2V/4V/10V preamps [usually 2V is RCA and 4V XLR output], so you can have 20dB Gain on your balanced Pre and get even better S/N ratio than on usual 26/29db Gain amps.

And they keep improving - going from UcD to Hypex nCore, then Purifi Eigentakt - each one was better and better - thd+n on the level of AP analyzers etc.
There was still this concerns around hard clipping and distortion rising with frequency. Also they were "weak" in terms of current available - e.g. very popular Purifi 1et400sa module has 25A of max current.

Nice comparison of development fo D Class performance - just be aware that every line is 10x better performance.

So pulled the trigger and ordered the "green line" from Apollon Audio - their specialty is that you can select OpAmps to you liking.
OP1565, Sparkos, Sonic Imagery - whatever you desire.
They also offer, what is considered "high-end" op amp from Weiss Engineering with its own linear power supply.
2 monoblocks ordered, waiting for the delivery.

https://apollonaudio.com/product/purifi-1et9040ba-eigentakt-premium-monoblock-amplifier-pet1200m/

Specs out of this world...