Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.

[RCHeliGuy]

Ethan is doing something very interesting.

He is building a Null Box which should PROVE conclusively once and for all what effect if any interconnects have.

What it does is read an analog music signal before and after an interconnect.
It Nulls out everything that is identical between them and only lets you hear the signal that has changed between them.

He is aiming for 80 dB of measuring which should be well beyond what the human ear could distinguish.

He is planning to start with a scientific test of a cheap set of RCA cables that come with a cheap audio device and esoteric cables.


So let me ask you guys a hypothetical question.

If there was scientific proof that there was not difference in sound quality between a set of cheap $3 interconnects and $500 interconnects would you still believe otherwise?

 

[twich54]

So let me ask you guys a hypothetical question.

If there was scientific proof that there was not difference in sound quality between a set of cheap $3 interconnects and $500 interconnects would you still believe otherwise?

LOL for those that have spent stupid $$$ on their wire will NEVER be able reason otherwise. Those that haven't will merely say ....."Told you so"

 

[Pneumonic]

The problem with scientific proof is too many people don't believe it, for whatever reason. Usually it is because they believe there are things we hear that science is unable to measure. Or, they believe that science isn't measuring the right things. So, for these people, and there are oodles of them, such a test won't convince them otherwise.

Heck, for longer than any audiophile has been alive, we have had access to state of the art test instrumentation that has been able to do signal analysis work such that they can very accurately measure amplitude, frequency and phase errors in electronic components to see what, if any, distortion is present. Even though these errors in distortion have been shown to be far below accepted thresholds of hearing, the naysayers persist and eschew what the instruments reveal.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Interesting Mark. What you will hear after the null process occurs and how one would interpret the "signal change" to determine if it is better or worse remains to be seen.

I assume you know my answer. I respect EW but he's hard core "objective" whereas I am in the opposite "subjective" camp.

BTW and IMHO, good sounding $500 IC's for a revealing, optimized system can be considered a bargain all other things being equal.

And sorry Dave, I don't consider my self stupid. Thanks for the kind words.

Gordon

PS: I can see this evolving into the typical "O vs S" pis*ing match so I will try to stay out past this point. Such a waste of energy and no one will change their minds regardless of what has been regurgitated / repeated a thousand times before.

Oh yes. Full disclosure about my stupidity Dave. Currently burning in a recently purchased Shunyata Research Alpha HC power cord which I will install in my system on Friday night. Just can't believe what an idiot I am.

And to the best of my knowledge, EW has been banned from sites such as this (most recently the What's Best Forum) for his "my way or the highway" attitude and his inability to accept the fact that he may be wrong regarding his assertions.

 

[timm]

Interesting Mark. What you will hear after the null process occurs and how one would interpret the "signal change" to determine if it is better or worse remains to be seen.

I assume you know my answer. I respect EW but he's hard core "objective" whereas I am in the opposite "subjective" camp.

BTW and IMHO, good sounding $500 IC's for a revealing, optimized system can be considered a bargain all other things being equal.

And sorry Dave, I don't consider my self stupid. Thanks for the kind words.

Gordon

PS: I can see this evolving into the typical "O vs S" pis*ing match so I will try to stay out past this point. Such a waste of energy and no one will change their minds regardless of what has been regurgitated / repeated a thousand times before.

Oh yes. Full disclosure about my stupidity Dave. Currently burning in a recently purchased Shunyata Research Alpha AC power cord which I will install in my system on Friday night. Just can't believe what an idiot I am.

And to the best of my knowledge, EW has been banned from sites such as this (most recently the What's Best Forum) for his "my way or the highway" attitude and his inability to accept the fact that he may be wrong regarding his assertions.

Gordon - will you compare the pangea to the shunyata and report back? I mean I know there will be no difference but.... .

 

[twich54]

Gordon ...........you really need to improve the quality of booze you drink ! LOL, but really .......where did I call YOU 'stupid' ??

 

[amey01]

LOL for those that have spent stupid $$$ on their wire will NEVER be able reason otherwise. Those that haven't will merely say ....."Told you so"

+1 - fully agree Dave.

Too many people to say "well I heard a difference, so that's all that matters"........

Although, those are the extreme examples. I will never say analogue ICs don't make a difference, however I won't buggerise around trying to discren differences between OFC and silver when there are too many things that DO make a constructive and worthwhile difference..........

 

[Gordon Gray]

LOL for those that have spent stupid $$$ on their wire

Here Dave.

Sorry if I misinterpreted.

Gordon

 

[Joey_V]

As they say:

If it sounds good and measures good, then it's good.
If it sounds good but measures bad, then you're not measuring the right parameters.

I used to be against the cable camp.... but now that I've heard, I am for. I know it's a minefield for those who believe... but believe me, I would not be spending the money had I not heard the difference. I would rather buy something else.

 

[Gordon Gray]

+1 - fully agree Dave.

I will never say analogue ICs don't make a difference, however I won't buggerise around trying to discren differences between OFC and silver

Adam,

I've gone back and forth over the years (Mapleshade, DH Labs, Kimber, Audioquest, Tara Labs, MIT and currently Shunyatya Research) with OFC vs silver but for me at least, it's what sounds best from a "synergy" perspective assuming you put credence in what your ears are telling you.

Gordon

 

[Gordon Gray]

Gordon ...........you really need to improve the quality of booze you drink !

Dave,

Waiting until I retire to do that.

Gordon

 

[Gordon Gray]

Gordon - will you compare the pangea to the shunyata and report back? I mean I know there will be no difference but.... .

Maybe but the Shunyata I have is for high current (amp / power strip) applications whereas the Pangea I own is for "source" components.

 

[twich54]

As they say:

If it sounds good and measures good, then it's good.
If it sounds good but measures bad, then you're not measuring the right parameters.

I used to be against the cable camp.... but now that I've heard, I am for. I know it's a minefield for those who believe... but believe me, I would not be spending the money had I not heard the difference. I would rather buy something else.

Good point Joey, for that and as Gordon and most of us have said here over the years, this horse has gotten beat to death ! So once again I'll reiterate ......... While I'm not at all opposed to the notion of different cables 'sounding' differently, rather I see no need or justification (other than for ones ego) to spend (here I ago again) "stupid $$" on ones wire !

How many times have we all seen and heard an enthusiast proudly proclaiming his or her 'audio jewelry' set up in a listening environment that barley justifies Monster Cable !!! ........... Now you know why I drink !

 

[Rich]

My belief is that everything makes a difference to some extent and Gordon's comments regarding synergy are spot on. I do think there is a lot of snake oil in the cable business and a lot of ridiculously inflated prices. I don't think cables are going to make a huge difference in the sound of your system. And the difference they do make won't be noticeable until you have a lot of other issues taken care of. Proper speaker placement, room response (proper acoustic treatment), high quality synergistic components, decent power supply, etc. Once all that is in place, different cables can give you subtly different sound.

I think once you get to the point of having decent quality cables, which have proper shielding, inductance, resistance, and capacitance for their intended use, any benefits of a higher priced cable beyond that are minimal. That's why most of my power, speaker, and interconnect cables are Signal cable. High quality, with the electrical characteristics I need for each, without the marketing budget and crazy price tag. I could spend a hell of a lot more for a slightly different sound, but it wouldn't be subjectively "better" in my opinion; only different. I think a lot of people confuse different with better and the cable companies take full advantage of that trait.

As for Ethan, I think this makes for a great marketing stunt for his brand, but I'm not sure how much he is actually advancing the science of understanding sonic differences between cables. Is he doing randomized, controlled trials? Is he publishing his results in a peer-reviewed journal? If not, I would hesitate to label this science. Looks more like a marketing stunt to generate controversy, which honestly seems kind of like his M.O.

 

[twich54]

Rich, we basically typed over one another ...........you just said it better though !

 

[Gordon Gray]

I agree with Rich's assessment relative to being able to hear the "cable delta" absent addressing all the other factors that impact the overall quality of the system.

Dave, I appreciate your perspective but I must say that my move to replace all wire in my system with Shunyata Research products (about halfway there at this time) has nothing to do with my ego and everything to do with my desire to optimize the sound quality and the corresponding emotional connection to the music.

 

[Hocky]

I can respect spending some money on cabling because they look cool and are well built - like buying a nice watch. Buying them to "tweak the sound" seems pretty damn silly to me.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I can respect spending some money on cabling because they look cool and are well built - like buying a nice watch. Buying them to "tweak the sound" seems pretty damn silly to me.

Hocky,

I'm sorry you feel trying to get the best performance out of an audio system is pretty damn silly. Depends on how much time you spend in a "serious" mode versus playing music for background purposes. I listen to my system for a minimum of one to two hours every night in the serious / one on one mode.

Unlike a watch, I don't look at my cables, I listen to them as part of the overall system.

Best,

Gordon

PS: FWIW, SR cables are very boring to look at (basic black outside cover) and they are behind my rack so they are not visible unless you look behind. And I suspect you spend money on stuff that I would consider "silly" but I would not criticize you for that. That's your personal prerogative.

 

[twich54]

Dave, I appreciate your perspective but I must say that my move to replace all wire in my system with Shunyata Research products (about halfway there at this time) has nothing to do with my ego and everything to do with my desire to optimize the sound quality and the corresponding emotional connection to the music.

Gordon, again, I'm not sure why you think I'm singling you out.......I'm not ! Perhaps I should clarify my definition of 'stupid $$' spent on 'wire' ...........just look @ MIT's top of the line speaker cabling for an example, serious five figures !

I don't look at my cables, I listen to them.

Gordon

not me, I listen to the music, the cables better damn well be out of the way !

 

[Gordon Gray]

Dave,

No worries amigo and wasn't meant that way. I totally agree that the top stuff from MIT, Transparent, Crystal etc. are extravagantly priced for the average lay person. I consider Shunyata's "middle" line, which I am buying, to be a relative bargain from a the price / performance perspective. That "value" judgement (including the uber stuff) will obviously vary from individual to individual.

And obviously I misspoke. I also listen to music, not wires.

How you liking your new speakers by the way?

Best,

Gordon