Do power cords matter?
- Thread starter dafos
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Justin, sources do react the most to power cords. The Lampi is extremely sensitive. Don't remember what you have but if you don't, get a good power cord and the lampi will open up considerably. Greg has a KBL ones that's good and not pricey in relative terms
beanbag
Well-known member
Just a reminder that nobody can tell the difference between power cords under an ABX test.
So glad you reminded us of that, because god knows none of us have heard it on this forum more than a few hundred times. :duh:
User211
Well-known member
Kedar, Greg tried one on me.
Tried as I could, in my system with power regen I heard no difference. Consistent with other attempts but I do think a good set would be worth it for my power amps. When I move them into certain floor patterns they pick up noise.
Tried as I could, in my system with power regen I heard no difference. Consistent with other attempts but I do think a good set would be worth it for my power amps. When I move them into certain floor patterns they pick up noise.
I have found that yes power cords do make a significant difference on Martin Logans. I use Foundation Research LC 1's which have a built in conditioner right in the powercord. Another similar cord is sold by bluecircle and is called a BC 68 http://www.bluecircle.com/page88.html. This powercord gets many endorsements from Martin Logan owners just under the explanation and details of the cord, pictures are in a link. I woud highly recommend you guy's have a look at them.
The Foundation Research cords I use have been discontinued and are now replaced by a more expensive model. There is a member on this site using those cords as well.
The Foundation Research cords I use have been discontinued and are now replaced by a more expensive model. There is a member on this site using those cords as well.
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InterMechanico
Well-known member
I read an article in the Stereophile archives http://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge about Bob Carver voicing one of his consumer amplifiers to sound exactly like a much more expensive, and well regarded amplifier (CJ Premier Four). The Double blind testing produced two identical amplifiers, indistinguishable from each other in every way.
The point is, just because AB testing doesn't result in a clear winner, it doesn't mean (to me) that the products are the same, quality or otherwise. Modifications such as cabling may take a great many hours to identify the changes they've made in a system. I'll readily admit that I've not been inclined to spend the time to evaluate the effects of power cables in my system, but I do have an open mind about these things. However, I have, up to this point, relied only on my basic knowledge of electricity to make decisions like these.
Note: Speaker cables are on my list as a near future purchase, and I'm going to rely on the recommendation of another member (Tim) in another thread to make my first choice in this crowded marketplace.
Note two: That open mind I spoke of really needs (I think) to work both ways as far as cost/result of any upgrades; Return on Investment. Far too often (I think), I am asked to have blind faith in the design and efficacy of a hugely expensive product, while being told that an amplifier/source/loudspeaker is Mid-Fi/No Good because it is brand X and we don't like brand X and brand X is Low Quality and No, I haven't heard or seen this particular brand X model because I don't need to hear it because I already know what I think of it because it's made by brand X, etc....
(Is that a rambling sentence, or what?)
Just my 5 Cents (we no longer use pennies in Canada, so I've rounded up. That's the kind of good value I offer!)
The point is, just because AB testing doesn't result in a clear winner, it doesn't mean (to me) that the products are the same, quality or otherwise. Modifications such as cabling may take a great many hours to identify the changes they've made in a system. I'll readily admit that I've not been inclined to spend the time to evaluate the effects of power cables in my system, but I do have an open mind about these things. However, I have, up to this point, relied only on my basic knowledge of electricity to make decisions like these.
Note: Speaker cables are on my list as a near future purchase, and I'm going to rely on the recommendation of another member (Tim) in another thread to make my first choice in this crowded marketplace.
Note two: That open mind I spoke of really needs (I think) to work both ways as far as cost/result of any upgrades; Return on Investment. Far too often (I think), I am asked to have blind faith in the design and efficacy of a hugely expensive product, while being told that an amplifier/source/loudspeaker is Mid-Fi/No Good because it is brand X and we don't like brand X and brand X is Low Quality and No, I haven't heard or seen this particular brand X model because I don't need to hear it because I already know what I think of it because it's made by brand X, etc....
(Is that a rambling sentence, or what?)
Just my 5 Cents (we no longer use pennies in Canada, so I've rounded up. That's the kind of good value I offer!)
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
IM,
The Carver / CJ test has been used by the DBT folks as proof positive. I'm not a supporter of DBT for a number of reasons but that's something that's been beaten to death on this and other forums. Don't want to / will not go there.
Regarding speaker cables, I would suggest contacting the Cable Company AKA fatwyre to arrange for an in home audition on your short list. You can audition all wire categories before committing to buy.
Regarding Note 2, sounds like the elitist rambling of dealers trying to sell their "mouse trap". These types are to be avoided like the plague.
GG
The Carver / CJ test has been used by the DBT folks as proof positive. I'm not a supporter of DBT for a number of reasons but that's something that's been beaten to death on this and other forums. Don't want to / will not go there.
Regarding speaker cables, I would suggest contacting the Cable Company AKA fatwyre to arrange for an in home audition on your short list. You can audition all wire categories before committing to buy.
Regarding Note 2, sounds like the elitist rambling of dealers trying to sell their "mouse trap". These types are to be avoided like the plague.
GG
InterMechanico
Well-known member
Thank you Gordon. I know how you feel about the :#& testing and appreciate your wish to avoid the topic. I agree with your statement regarding it.
That is a great selection at CableCompany! Thank you for the link to their website. So many options to choose from; I think I should call them to narrow my options down to those only in my price range, and take it from there. I have ordered a pair of Reference 3 Anticable speaker cables and the same jumpers to give me a point of reference (I love the ease of internet shopping). Tim recommended them as very good value, but also easily identifiable from the roll of branded zip cord I've been using.
Note 2 on Note 2: I'm aware that I don't have the best components in my system but I certainly could do a lot worse! lol. More importantly, I'm very pleased with what I have.
Julian
That is a great selection at CableCompany! Thank you for the link to their website. So many options to choose from; I think I should call them to narrow my options down to those only in my price range, and take it from there. I have ordered a pair of Reference 3 Anticable speaker cables and the same jumpers to give me a point of reference (I love the ease of internet shopping). Tim recommended them as very good value, but also easily identifiable from the roll of branded zip cord I've been using.
Note 2 on Note 2: I'm aware that I don't have the best components in my system but I certainly could do a lot worse! lol. More importantly, I'm very pleased with what I have.
Julian
beanbag
Well-known member
It just means that they are sonically fungible.
InterMechanico
Well-known member
Yes. I never before heard that word used to describe sound before, but I get your gist
.
amey01
Well-known member
I agree with Gordon regarding elitist dealers trying to flog their particular horse.
Any dealer that puts down your choice because they believe they have (can sell you) something better is categorically to be avoided as Gordon also alluded to.
I don't accept "blind faith" an anything, and I am much more responsive to dealers who say things like "We've found this to be particularly effective with your [brand] [technology] [component type]", and "why don't you have a listen [or borrow] and see what you think".
You can certainly change the sound of your system with tweaks (power cords included). It's fun and thrilling when you achieve a significant improvement for not a lot of money.
Unfortunately when more than "not much" money is asked for these exotic tweaks, it is usually far more sensible to spend the money on traditional upgrades. IE. I'm not going to spend $3000 in power cables for my $3000 amplifier when I could just go amplifier shopping with a $6000 budget!!
Hi,
Its great fun reading all your comments on power cords and other tweaks :ROFL:
Like some of you wrote, we all have mede our own experience and such tweaks are highly dependant on a lot of factors which are all different in different locations and with different electronics. I lived and worked 5 years in Bulgaria and returning to Germany made a world of difference to the sound of my HiFi System, cord tweaks does make a audible difference, possible not to the same extend at all electronics and at each location.
I would like to hear your experience if polarisation of the power cord attached to a passive ML (in my case a Aerius) make a difference?
Please spare us with your theoretical comments and just share your auditive experiences.
Thank you.
Its great fun reading all your comments on power cords and other tweaks :ROFL:
Like some of you wrote, we all have mede our own experience and such tweaks are highly dependant on a lot of factors which are all different in different locations and with different electronics. I lived and worked 5 years in Bulgaria and returning to Germany made a world of difference to the sound of my HiFi System, cord tweaks does make a audible difference, possible not to the same extend at all electronics and at each location.
I would like to hear your experience if polarisation of the power cord attached to a passive ML (in my case a Aerius) make a difference?
Please spare us with your theoretical comments and just share your auditive experiences.
Thank you.
amey01
Well-known member
The problem is, listening is subjective. You will hear what you want to hear. This works both ways - we'll hear an improvement if we want to, and similarly we will not hear an improvement if we don't believe we are going to.
I was at the Australian audio show recently, and one of the dealers was extoling the virtues of USB cables and gave a demo. I understand the theory and know there can be no difference. Did I hear a difference? Of course not. But I understand that this may be due to the fact that I did not expect or want to hear a difference. Others did hear a difference. Who is right? I'll be the first to admit I may not be right. But as I've said before - there are simply better value upgrades you can do to your system that wasting time on things like power cables.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
For the Aerius, with passive woofer, electric power is only used to energize the stat panel (which is then powered by whichever amp you're using), so the power cord should make no difference. One *could* argue that power cords might have an audible effect in models with ACTIVE woofer sections (though I personally don't believe it).
bikerneil
Well-known member
This may be a really stupid question, but why go to the expense of using a specially designed and very pricey power cord when all the wiring in your house is simple and cheap 14-2 Romex that sells for less than 50 cents per foot? Doesn't the hundreds of feet of 14-2 Romex in your walls do more damage to the sound quality from your system than the last 10 feet between the wall and your equipment?
I am not being a smart-ass, I am just asking the question. I am a Newbie, and am still learning.
Thanks.
I am not being a smart-ass, I am just asking the question. I am a Newbie, and am still learning.
Thanks.
amey01
Well-known member
Well......aahhhhh.......exactly.
And even if it does do something......spending that money on a better amplifier / better source / better speaker / room treatment / FFS, a bottle of wine..........will do far more for the true sound you hear anyway.
Really, I just don't get it.
Yeah, but expensive power cables look nice though........they do......yeah.
But at least it is more believable than USB cables making a difference. :ROFL:
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The following is my subjective opinion not disregarding respect for other members subjective opinions.
I own two each of three separate kinds of power cable. All three have a different impact on sonics from my power amplifier. Two of my three types of power cables can be used to power CLS loudspeakers. Have a different impact on loudspeaker sonics too.
Snake oil may exist in the audio industry but I do not think power cables involve snake oil.
The impact on sonics from power cords may not be much when compared to audio equipment however some positive impact exists nevertheless.
I own two each of three separate kinds of power cable. All three have a different impact on sonics from my power amplifier. Two of my three types of power cables can be used to power CLS loudspeakers. Have a different impact on loudspeaker sonics too.
Snake oil may exist in the audio industry but I do not think power cables involve snake oil.
The impact on sonics from power cords may not be much when compared to audio equipment however some positive impact exists nevertheless.
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Power cables simply have to deliver the wall current to your power supplies.
The only way to improve on them would be to run the typical 12awg solid core copper wire straight to your power supplies. We are talking pennies worth of copper here.
There is nothing sonic about them. There is no way they can impact on your system unless they are underrated, overheat and cause a fire that burns your system down.
Looking pretty can cause all kinds of perceptions, but nothing that could ever be measured.
USB cables deliver digital data and can be mathematically proven to have zero impact on music.
You could mathematically prove power cables have no impact on music if you ran the numbers involved by what happens when your AC power hits the power supply of any component and how it is converted and massaged before being used by any part of your system.
The only way to improve on them would be to run the typical 12awg solid core copper wire straight to your power supplies. We are talking pennies worth of copper here.
There is nothing sonic about them. There is no way they can impact on your system unless they are underrated, overheat and cause a fire that burns your system down.
Looking pretty can cause all kinds of perceptions, but nothing that could ever be measured.
USB cables deliver digital data and can be mathematically proven to have zero impact on music.
You could mathematically prove power cables have no impact on music if you ran the numbers involved by what happens when your AC power hits the power supply of any component and how it is converted and massaged before being used by any part of your system.
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At the risk of being verbally flogged and ridiculed I will pass on my person experience.
CLX ART experience - Mine came with the updated power cables that have been mentioned already. I ran with these for a couple of years thinking that going with a better power cable would probably make no difference because it’s a full electrostatic and contains no internal amp - just converting 120V to 12 V right. So I proceeded to upgrade other power, interconnects and speaker cables in the meantime with very noticeable and good improvements in sound. Eventually I replaced them recently with a mid-range Nordost Frey 2 and immediately noticed better performance top to bottom - it was very obvious.
Around this same time my son got one of the first pair of 13A's so we did a little experiment at his home. We tried his stock power cable, my CLX power cables, Nordost Red Dawn and Tyr 2 power (for those not familiar with Nordost the Tyr 2 is one level up from Frey 2) in that order. We spent a good part of an afternoon and heard good improvement with each change. Particularly going from stock power to CLX power but even more so going from Frey 2 to Tyr2. In fact I was so impressed when I recently did my media room I went with T2 power for my Summit X's as I was considering Frey 2 at the time. To me getting better power to a hybrid speaker like the 13A or the Summit X makes sense since they have an internal amp.
The improvements were very obvious to me and my son. Not quite sure how it could not be heard like mentioned by many in this thread. I'm still a little perplexed why a better power cord helps the CLX but I know it does - I'm just having a hard time making sense of it like I can for the hybrids. I'm sure many of you have visited the Nordost demo room at shows they replace one cable at a time and depending on what is being replaced the difference can be quite dramatic. I know last year at Axpona there was a big ta do about a guy that was trying to debunk the demo that later got detracted I believe.
Again I'm just trying to let you know my personal experience. This write up will not change anybody's mind that is firmly set on "cables make no difference". Each system is different, home electric power delivered to your system can be different, the type of cable itself and we all hear different. I just happen to believe by experience that cables particularly power can make a huge difference.
CLX ART experience - Mine came with the updated power cables that have been mentioned already. I ran with these for a couple of years thinking that going with a better power cable would probably make no difference because it’s a full electrostatic and contains no internal amp - just converting 120V to 12 V right. So I proceeded to upgrade other power, interconnects and speaker cables in the meantime with very noticeable and good improvements in sound. Eventually I replaced them recently with a mid-range Nordost Frey 2 and immediately noticed better performance top to bottom - it was very obvious.
Around this same time my son got one of the first pair of 13A's so we did a little experiment at his home. We tried his stock power cable, my CLX power cables, Nordost Red Dawn and Tyr 2 power (for those not familiar with Nordost the Tyr 2 is one level up from Frey 2) in that order. We spent a good part of an afternoon and heard good improvement with each change. Particularly going from stock power to CLX power but even more so going from Frey 2 to Tyr2. In fact I was so impressed when I recently did my media room I went with T2 power for my Summit X's as I was considering Frey 2 at the time. To me getting better power to a hybrid speaker like the 13A or the Summit X makes sense since they have an internal amp.
The improvements were very obvious to me and my son. Not quite sure how it could not be heard like mentioned by many in this thread. I'm still a little perplexed why a better power cord helps the CLX but I know it does - I'm just having a hard time making sense of it like I can for the hybrids. I'm sure many of you have visited the Nordost demo room at shows they replace one cable at a time and depending on what is being replaced the difference can be quite dramatic. I know last year at Axpona there was a big ta do about a guy that was trying to debunk the demo that later got detracted I believe.
Again I'm just trying to let you know my personal experience. This write up will not change anybody's mind that is firmly set on "cables make no difference". Each system is different, home electric power delivered to your system can be different, the type of cable itself and we all hear different. I just happen to believe by experience that cables particularly power can make a huge difference.
