MiTT
Super User
Guys, let's tone it down a bit. Everyone has their own experience and we're all free to share that here, but let's not descend into personal attacks that will force moderation.
Do power cords matter?
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Beachbound
Well-known member
Good point MiTT! A little "livening up" of this site may just be a kiss of death to it's longevity!!
This site was around long before you got here and will be around long after you are gone. If you think being pretentious and condescending equates to "livening up" the site, then I am sure there are many other audiophile communities on the Internet where you will fit in nicely.
Beachbound
Well-known member
Good grief you whining child....over 3300 posts? Most of which are nothing but vile attacks on Martin Logan? Grow up...
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Not whining. Nor am I a child. But I will give you a friendly warning. We are a community here, and those who choose to name-call, put-down, or otherwise pick fights with other forum members, tend to get banned from the community pretty quickly.
Beachbound
Well-known member
Rich, my first post at the top of the thread was meant with generic humor and advice...obviously not taken that way!! After that I received nothing but attacks from our Vancouver friend! If it hadn't taken such a turn...guess what Rich?...I LIVED just outside of Vancouver for 3 years but the tone never got to that!! We still have many good friends all over British Columbia, along with a ski chalet that hosts some of the best skiing on earth!! With respect, as I have been told by many a dealer..this hobby tends to attract numerous audiophile "geeks", whether well healed or not! Avoiding or being banned by these types of forums would trouble very few! I made the unfortunate choice to try to share my experience with ML products. There are many "veteran" users here who have owned the product much longer than I, but I have had this brand in my home since the mid 90's...in many renditions! I am PASSIONATE about ML products...just not so much toward the minority of folks who eat, sleep, walk, and talk on these forums!!! Some folks have got to get out there and get a life outside of their "measurements" and "specifications"!!Good luck to you!!
rower30
Active member
The big technical argument on power cords, is to act as a RF filter for garbage noise (really, really, poor dielectric properties to RF...Absorb RF into heat) so only clean 60 cycle mostly gets through. Then the cord is plugged into a line conditioner where several more dB of noise isolation takes place. The many devices plugged into the line conditioner also helps keep noise from going from one device to another. So the service rendered by these devises is to get a more pure low frequency 60 cycle power source to your power supply, and keep LOCAL devices from contaminating the AC lines. It isn't as much about the power coming in as the noise created at the local power block if you will. Shunyata has a nice white paper on this, by the way.
To convince yourself of this, if the DC is 100% separate from the AC signal, all this would be of no real use for NOISE, but could still be significant if the varying noisy DC signal (no longer pure DC) bias alters the gain characteristics of the AC signal blocks. If it isn't 100% DC, it is indeed changing the Vcc bias voltage to a different than spec value and will change the gain from where it is intended to be. Can you hear this? No comment. Could you measure it? Should be able to with a difference scope set-up. I have never seen this VCC stability tact used to support power line filtering, though.
What I can hear, is that the DC and AC do not have a "wall" between them. If I power off my wonderful VPI CLASSIC 3.0 T-tables, I hear a nice POP through the CLX that was produced when the DC and AC decided to get together. The sharp RF transient creates enough RF to get through the DC side to the AC side, filter or not. If I UNPLUG the table from the same circuit and use another one, it is fine. This seems to say the power cord path is responsible, and it isn't RF modulated through the air into the pre-amp. So it gets in through the DC power block.
I use the basement for my hi-fi, and the furnace and other articles of interference would buzz and pop through the system at regular intervals. One day I was looking for a high quality power strip, and though about the Shunyata model and was talked into a used Shunyata HYDRA TALOS model. It is a nice rectangular 19" box that neatly fit under everything...so THAT point sold me on it, verses the glorified power strip jammed up besides everything. I had no real expectations other than a tidy set-up.
I can report this with 100% truth, all the pops, buzzes and clicks are completely audibly GONE. Of course, the TALOS unit need to use a special Power Cord of Shunyate sourced design (I have the Anaconda model, but the Python, which I borrowed, worked the same for garbage noise). The filter effect of the TALOS does the bulk of the lifting, where the better power cord acts more and more like a passive noise filter pushing the noise lower and lower into the noise floor. Its an additive effect. However, it can't solve every problem, the VPI still POPS through the CLX when powered off. And, it is in the TALOS circuit block.
As for sound quality, well, the lack of ANY noise sure has been nice and for that I feel the upgrade was worth it. I cannot report that the sonic signature outside of noise removal has been heard.
The CLX pull precious little current (2 watts I think) and mine are actually in the wall circuit with the stock cords...which seem very nice to me. The noise issues I had were in my delivery side to the speakers. The passive RF filter of a better power cord COULD remove some noise issues in the CLX, but so far the noise floor is vanishingly low as it. And, the instantaneous power (low inductance) delivery of an exotic cord is wasted on a small steady state electrostatic bias voltage on the CLX stators. Sticking that exotic low inductance passive RF filter cord on my MOON W-8 amp makes more technical sense, even if I still can't hear the difference.
So I have ONE exotic power cord running from the TALOS to the wall, and ALL low devices outside of my subs and CLX go through the TALOS with rubber 14 AWG cords. Why rubber? It is a poor RF dielectric! I had to get "some" passive RF cord for the TALSO and figured pushing the noise floor lower WHERE I KNOW I have problems seemed prudent. Remember that noise is STILL there, it is just attenuated more and more with additional filters. So far, this change removed all the unwanted transient noises I've been hearing in the past to inaudible seating position levels.
So I’m trying to be somewhat honest about my experience with all this. Hope it helps you determine how best to upgrade your stereo.
To convince yourself of this, if the DC is 100% separate from the AC signal, all this would be of no real use for NOISE, but could still be significant if the varying noisy DC signal (no longer pure DC) bias alters the gain characteristics of the AC signal blocks. If it isn't 100% DC, it is indeed changing the Vcc bias voltage to a different than spec value and will change the gain from where it is intended to be. Can you hear this? No comment. Could you measure it? Should be able to with a difference scope set-up. I have never seen this VCC stability tact used to support power line filtering, though.
What I can hear, is that the DC and AC do not have a "wall" between them. If I power off my wonderful VPI CLASSIC 3.0 T-tables, I hear a nice POP through the CLX that was produced when the DC and AC decided to get together. The sharp RF transient creates enough RF to get through the DC side to the AC side, filter or not. If I UNPLUG the table from the same circuit and use another one, it is fine. This seems to say the power cord path is responsible, and it isn't RF modulated through the air into the pre-amp. So it gets in through the DC power block.
I use the basement for my hi-fi, and the furnace and other articles of interference would buzz and pop through the system at regular intervals. One day I was looking for a high quality power strip, and though about the Shunyata model and was talked into a used Shunyata HYDRA TALOS model. It is a nice rectangular 19" box that neatly fit under everything...so THAT point sold me on it, verses the glorified power strip jammed up besides everything. I had no real expectations other than a tidy set-up.
I can report this with 100% truth, all the pops, buzzes and clicks are completely audibly GONE. Of course, the TALOS unit need to use a special Power Cord of Shunyate sourced design (I have the Anaconda model, but the Python, which I borrowed, worked the same for garbage noise). The filter effect of the TALOS does the bulk of the lifting, where the better power cord acts more and more like a passive noise filter pushing the noise lower and lower into the noise floor. Its an additive effect. However, it can't solve every problem, the VPI still POPS through the CLX when powered off. And, it is in the TALOS circuit block.
As for sound quality, well, the lack of ANY noise sure has been nice and for that I feel the upgrade was worth it. I cannot report that the sonic signature outside of noise removal has been heard.
The CLX pull precious little current (2 watts I think) and mine are actually in the wall circuit with the stock cords...which seem very nice to me. The noise issues I had were in my delivery side to the speakers. The passive RF filter of a better power cord COULD remove some noise issues in the CLX, but so far the noise floor is vanishingly low as it. And, the instantaneous power (low inductance) delivery of an exotic cord is wasted on a small steady state electrostatic bias voltage on the CLX stators. Sticking that exotic low inductance passive RF filter cord on my MOON W-8 amp makes more technical sense, even if I still can't hear the difference.
So I have ONE exotic power cord running from the TALOS to the wall, and ALL low devices outside of my subs and CLX go through the TALOS with rubber 14 AWG cords. Why rubber? It is a poor RF dielectric! I had to get "some" passive RF cord for the TALSO and figured pushing the noise floor lower WHERE I KNOW I have problems seemed prudent. Remember that noise is STILL there, it is just attenuated more and more with additional filters. So far, this change removed all the unwanted transient noises I've been hearing in the past to inaudible seating position levels.
So I’m trying to be somewhat honest about my experience with all this. Hope it helps you determine how best to upgrade your stereo.
beanbag
Well-known member
In most equipment AC is converted by transformers and etc into a DC voltage (with a small 120 Hz ripple if it is unregulated supply). There are only two ways I know of in which this DC voltage can be modulated. One is if it is high frequency noise in the MHz range, in which case the ESR and ESL of the power supply capacitors can't quite filter it out. This can in theory get into the audio signal. It is above the audible range, but can possibly intermix down to lower frequencies. To get rid of this kind of noise, you need something that is explicitly a filter, which uses inductors or capacitors or other devices. Two straight magic wires and a ground conductor won't accomplish this. In one of my custom built amps, I installed a power line filter (built into the power receptacle) and changed some aspects of the power supply design, and saw this noise go away. I couldn't be sure if it made the amp sound any different or not. But any self-respecting amp should filter out this noise in the first place.
The other way this DC signal gets modulated is if you have multiple pieces of equipment all connected to one wall socket. If one piece of equipment suddenly draws a large amount of current, then the voltage for everybody drops, like 120V -> 119 V. Then the voltage inside your amp will drop by a little bit, if it is unregulated. That can get into the music signal also, but most self-respecting amps have a good spec for Power Supply Rejection Ratio, so the effects are negligible at low frequencies, and might show up more at high frequencies, but the power supply caps should absorb that part. Again, two straight magic wires and a ground lead won't fix this, and neither will a line filter. Rather, you would need to change the house wiring or use some kind of an active line conditioner.
This pop is simply an artifact of the electronics design of your various components. When you turn off or remove power from circuits, the output voltage can jump, causing the pop. No power cord or line conditioner can change fix this.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Why are you posting on this site?
Beachbound
Well-known member
I own Martin Logans! What lonely soul would be posting here if he didn't?
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Beach,
Not lonely. Just enjoy the camaraderie and friends I have made over the years on this site.
Perhaps if you can act in a civil / respectful / non confrontational manner, you may realize the same.
Based on your posts on this thread, I strongly suspect that this will not be the case.
As Rich said, there are other sites that may be more compatible with your apparent attitude.
GG
PS: Just reviewed your past posts on this thread. With all due respect, you appear to have the classic passive / aggressive personality and come across as self righteous and condescending AKA the "my way or the highway" type. Please do us all a favor and accept the fact that others will have valid / defensible opinions that are based on their personal experiences that differ from yours. Given the inherent subjectivity of this hobby, all perspectives are valid. I personally welcome your input assuming it is done in an appropriate / constructive manner.
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beek
Well-known member
Gee,
Boys Boys I thought I was the Official trouble maker here, cant We all kiss and make-up?
the Beek
Boys Boys I thought I was the Official trouble maker here, cant We all kiss and make-up?
the Beek
Beachbound
Well-known member
Agreed Gordon, fair enough! Likely comes from viewing too many political sites prior to viewing MLOF. Could I suggest we discuss the effect of power cords on Obama? All the best, take care.
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Beachbound
Well-known member
I would be more than glad to give you your title back...tried it, didn't like it...it's yours again!!Gee,
Boys Boys I thought I was the Official trouble maker here, cant We all kiss and make-up?
the Beek
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ALl the power cords I have compared to basic cords have made a difference, starting the most with the source, then the preamp. I haven't been able to make out much on the amp and Logans after that. The sound became more open and smoother, I have tried expensive ones like the Kubala Sosna and cheaper but good ones from Poland or something called KBL. I could make out the difference easily and it was positive. I couldn't make out the difference in isolation as much. So, I can make out the difference between a basic and a midgrade, but not a midgrade and a high grade
beek
Well-known member
Completely agree Rich I tried a few and found exactly that the thicker ga. Sounded different.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
User211
Well-known member
Cable threads. Always trouble.
Bernard
Well-known member
For some reason they get people wiredCable threads. Always trouble.
rower30
Active member
...This pop is simply an artifact of the electronics design of your various components. When you turn off or remove power from circuits, the output voltage can jump, causing the pop. No power cord or line conditioner can change fix this...
Yes, many DC side circuits use small capacitors to filter line noise and other AC artifacts to ground.
The current draw is so small on the T-table motor that it seems unlikely to cause a voltage spike. If it was really loading the circuit, yes. Still, there is audible evidence of this with the POP so the evidence supports your comment. It is still suprising that a DC side circuit allows the POP to filter throught the AC side, though. And, this is the sort of thing that leads to FUD on power cords and conditioners.
A agree with your comments otherwise, as I was "trying" to be open minded about the effects of power-line conditioning and such. I did buy one, even if I thought I was getting a glorified terminal strip. If the DC bias voltage is steady state, it seems like mission accomplished.
What the filter DID do, was remove annoying line noise (furnace). And, I think my MOON W-8 is a pretty decent amp as is the PASS LABS XP-10 pre amp. The noise still managed to get through to the speakers, but not through the TALOS unit. When there was no annoying line noise, I can't be for certain it is "better" sounding.
So I do see all kinds of indirect measurements of various sorts, but the data isn't overlayed with what's likely audible. Line noise on a cord verses no line noise on a cored. OK, but take the measurement AFTER the power supply (it too will likely remove that SAME noise artifact) and see if there is any change there, for instance. Fixing something that gets fixed later on in the power supply blocks anyway isn't a fix.
Yes, many DC side circuits use small capacitors to filter line noise and other AC artifacts to ground.
The current draw is so small on the T-table motor that it seems unlikely to cause a voltage spike. If it was really loading the circuit, yes. Still, there is audible evidence of this with the POP so the evidence supports your comment. It is still suprising that a DC side circuit allows the POP to filter throught the AC side, though. And, this is the sort of thing that leads to FUD on power cords and conditioners.
A agree with your comments otherwise, as I was "trying" to be open minded about the effects of power-line conditioning and such. I did buy one, even if I thought I was getting a glorified terminal strip. If the DC bias voltage is steady state, it seems like mission accomplished.
What the filter DID do, was remove annoying line noise (furnace). And, I think my MOON W-8 is a pretty decent amp as is the PASS LABS XP-10 pre amp. The noise still managed to get through to the speakers, but not through the TALOS unit. When there was no annoying line noise, I can't be for certain it is "better" sounding.
So I do see all kinds of indirect measurements of various sorts, but the data isn't overlayed with what's likely audible. Line noise on a cord verses no line noise on a cored. OK, but take the measurement AFTER the power supply (it too will likely remove that SAME noise artifact) and see if there is any change there, for instance. Fixing something that gets fixed later on in the power supply blocks anyway isn't a fix.
