CLX Upgrade: Things To Be Aware Of

[BruceS]

I am a long term electrostat owner (acoustat spectra 22s) who is looking to upgrade my speakers to new full range electrostats.
I am very seriously considering the CLX but would like to know if there are things that I should be aware of.
Reliability and panel issues spring immediately to mind.
Are there any problems in these areas?
Anything else that I should be aware of?
Anyone else move from spectra 22s to the CLX?
Anyone like to comment about what differences I should expect to notice?
Thanks.
Bruce

 

[roberto]

Hola Bruce and welcome to the MLO. With all respect, the CLXs are totally different beast. ML uses top grade materials to built all their line of speakers. You can tell that the CLXs are hand made too. The speakers come with 5 year factory warranty, and the service dept is one of the best on these days!!!. Things that you will notice right away are, size of the instruments, stage and image, harmonic texture, air between the instruments, timbre, dynamics, high level handling, they do rock! In classical music, it is so easy to tell at the piano, what the left hand is doing vs the right hand. The nuance on the music, the feeling of the musician(s). You can play all kind of music through the CLXs and be always satisfied with the quality of their sound. You will re-discover all your records. They are a fine jewel. At the beginning, they do not show the great potential that they have reproducing the music. But you can tell the quality since the first musical note of any instrument. Harp, guitar, piano, trumpet, drums, double bass, electric bass, sax, oboe, violin, viola, cello, vives, congas, cymbals, brass instruments, you name it, are played with no stress and are a caress to your ears. I love mines, and my room is very .small...they are a truly high-end speakers. As you do know, any system and sound quality is a matter of liking. What I do like, not necessary you must like it too. But, as I recall, when the ML Team went to Europe, to the Audio Munich Show for the first time with a pair of CLXs, two finalist were chosen: The Grand Uthopia by JMLabs (Focal) costing $ 180.000.00 per pair and the CLXs. For the first time at the Show, the 11 judges chose and voted as the best sound of the show, the CLX!. It was an unanimous decision. I can say this: quality has no regret! Happy listening.

 

[amey01]

Things of which to be aware........replacement panel cost and being left with a pair of speakers whose disposal cost is greater than the damn things are worth?

ML - you've already lost half the members on this forum - put an end to losing any more.......please.

 

[MOON]

Hi Bruce,
As Amey01 stated, replacement panel cost have recently risen 3x the original cost they were selling them for. I would check what the replacement cost for the stator panel would be before committing tosuch a large purchase the purchase. Read the last 3 pages of this thread on replacement panels. http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...712-Lifetime-Service-for-MartinLogan-Products

 

[JonFo]

While panel replacements might be a consideration, they will not affect the speaker for 15+ years.

My take is you would find the CLX a step up over the Acoustat, especially in the mid-bass, where the dual-force bass panels can move substantial air, giving them a wider power envelope (ability to maintain a certain frequency response across SPL levels).

 

[Horchem1972]

While panel replacements might be a consideration, they will not affect the speaker for 15+ years.

If all fairness they only come with 5 year warranties. You will be lucky to get 15 years out of the panels.No one has measured the panels to see if the performance degrades over the years.The cost of panel replacement should be a major concern. If they are charging $3000 for CLS panels imagine the cost for the much larger CLX panels, if they still make them at that time. What used to be is no longer at ML. There is no longer the guarantee they will provide replacement parts for any speaker in the future.

 

[Ron]

If you can afford to buy them, enjoy them, and don't worry what might or might not happen 15 years down the road.

 

[Horchem1972]

If you can afford to buy them, enjoy them, and don't worry what might or might not happen 15 years down the road.

What happens if 6 years down the road a panel goes bad, it does happen,would he feel the same way if said panels were $10,000-$15000 ?? The CLX panels are a whole differant ballgame and would be alot more expensive to replace then the older panels.Remember there is only a 5 year warranty on the panels.

 

[jmschnur]

Has anybody asked what the replacement costs are for the CLX after 5,6,7 years from now.

I would ask ML what their replacement policy is for the CLX and if a good one get it in writing.

I have only heard about much older panels.

There has been a lot of hyperbole on this topic but we are missing hard facts for the costs of replacement for the newer panels.



J

 

[Rich]

Like other long term ML owners and members of this forum, I also cannot in good conscience recommend Martin Logan speakers at this time. They were bought out by a venture capital firm, combined with Paradigm, and have been making a lot of questionable changes ever since. Production of the speakers was recently moved from the U.S. to Canada. I don't think we have a consensus yet on whether the quality of construction has remained at reasonable levels since that move.

They have made a lot of other cost-cutting decisions that would concern me as a potential purchaser, letting go a lot of long-term employees -- people that had made Martin Logan the brand that it was. It is just not the same company anymore. They recently tripled replacement panel prices for some older models, bringing the cost to a substantial level. They did this without any prior warning to their loyal customer base and without any reasonable explanation for the decision. This was after they had said they would no longer support older models, and then had to backtrack on that due to the severe backlash on this forum. The replacement panel price hike appears to be an underhanded attempt to achieve the same goal.

The panel will fail at some point. Not if but when. Usually ten to fifteen years, but sometimes sooner. You need to consider the high cost of replacing these panels down the road in your estimate of whether the CLX are worth the price. Given the high initial cost of those speakers, and the questionable state of the company right now, it just isn't worth it. There are too many good speakers from other companies at fairly reasonable prices.

If prices of replacement panels continue on this upward trend, used market values of the speakers will be substantially diminished. Just remember, with the CLX, you would potentially have to replace not just the main panels, but also the bass panels, so the cost would be quite substantial. Also, the bass panel technology is still very new and hasn't been time-tested yet. They could potentially give out a lot sooner than the main panels. We just don't know at this point.

I own about a dozen ML speakers, including the former top-of-the-line Summits. If I were shopping for some high-end main speakers at this point in time, I would absolutely not consider Martin Logans. If you love electrostats, I highly recommend you consider Sanders Sound System, Quad, or SoundLabs. The current and future state of Martin Logan is just too uncertain at this point in time.

 

[JayGee]

Production of the speakers was recently moved from the U.S. to Canada. I don't think we have a consensus yet on whether the quality of construction has remained at reasonable levels since that move.

The stories I have heard about Paradigm issues coupled with my own recent ML CLX experiences, leaves me convinced that the ML move to Canadian production was not beneficial. I have experienced QC issues that are simply inexcusable.

 

[Rich]

The stories I have heard about Paradigm issues coupled with my own recent ML CLX experiences, leaves me convinced that the ML move to Canadian production was not beneficial. I have experienced QC issues that are simply inexcusable.

JayGee, please give us some details of your recent experience with QC of the CLX (or, if you already have done so, please point me to the thread). With all these questions swirling around, I think it is important for potential buyers of these speakers to know and understand the experiences of others. I was very concerned when ML moved production to Canada that just this sort of drop in quality control would happen -- not because they can't build good products in Canada -- but rather because of the fact that panel construction is an art that takes time to master and they fired most of the experienced people before moving production and training the new folks. They made the transition way too quickly. When we toured ML, the guys doing the panels stated that it took about five years to become completely proficient in constructing the panels. The guys doing it in Canada have only been doing it for a year now. Not surprising that some QC issues would creep up.

Given the fact that the CLX lists for around $25,000, I would say that any issues with a new pair is extremely concerning. I mean, you might expect an issue with the mass-produced home theater stuff, but certainly not with your top-of-the-line speaker. These should be thoroughly vetted before leaving the factory. My Summits cost less than half as much as the CLX five years or so ago, and I never had any issue with them. So I would be interested in hearing specifics about your issue.

 

[JayGee]

JayGee, please give us some details of your recent experience with QC of the CLX (or, if you already have done so, please point me to the thread). With all these questions swirling around, I think it is important for potential buyers of these speakers to know and understand the experiences of others. I was very concerned when ML moved production to Canada that just this sort of drop in quality control would happen -- not because they can't build good products in Canada -- but rather because of the fact that panel construction is an art that takes time to master and they fired most of the experienced people before moving production and training the new folks. They made the transition way too quickly. When we toured ML, the guys doing the panels stated that it took about five years to become completely proficient in constructing the panels. The guys doing it in Canada have only been doing it for a year now. Not surprising that some QC issues would creep up.

Given the fact that the CLX lists for around $25,000, I would say that any issues with a new pair is extremely concerning. I mean, you might expect an issue with the mass-produced home theater stuff, but certainly not with your top-of-the-line speaker. These should be thoroughly vetted before leaving the factory. My Summits cost less than half as much as the CLX five years or so ago, and I never had any issue with them. So I would be interested in hearing specifics about your issue.

Rich, I appreciate your interest, but I am not comfortable with posting the details of my experience(s).

I offer any CLX buyer the following suggestions:

Check each speakers' fit and finish very carefully upon receipt.

Run full range ( best if 40-20k) linear sweep tones, to check panel integrity, soon after arrival and again after break-in.

Hope this helps.

 

[amey01]

If you can afford to buy them, enjoy them, and don't worry what might or might not happen 15 years down the road.

WTF? You cannot be serious. You'd have to have a lot of money to BURN before you considered this statement! Sorry.

A more likely scenario - what happens in --say-- six or seven years time, when you want to upgrade to the CLX II or CLXIII (or something else), but you can't get more than $50 for your worthless speakers because everyone with half a brain knows they threaten to become oversized paperweights at any time forthcoming, leaving you with a large rubbish tip fee and nothing to show for it.

That's where the true problem lies. Name any audiophile who has had the same speaker for 15 years. Resale is a HUGE consideration!

 

[amey01]

without any reasonable explanation for the decision.

I wish there was no reasonable explanation. All I saw was a condescending and belittling lie!

You need to consider the high cost of replacing these panels down the road in your estimate

More important than you replacing the panels (which most original/new owners will never need to do), you need to consider the fact that -after such a huge investment- you might end up with something that is unsalable, costing you even more when it comes time to upgrade.

 

[Rich]

Rich, I appreciate your interest, but I am not comfortable with posting the details of my experience(s).

That's a shame, as I think anyone considering spending $25,000 on a pair of these speakers would be very interested to hear the details of your experience. Lots of folks researching Martin Logans come to this forum for accurate information and we all know that factual experiences are a lot more useful than supposition and anecdotes. But I certainly respect your decision if you are uncomfortable discussing the details.

Obviously, it still goes without saying that no one should ever experience the kind of issues that you allude to with a brand new pair of $25,000 speakers. It certainly does call into question current levels of quality control at Martin Logan's Canadian production facility.

 

[jmschnur]

Name any audiophile who has had the same speaker for 15 years. !

Current speakers running in my home.

B&W 801 matrix circa 1980

Celestion SL 6 1990 ?

Dalhqust Sub woofer from 1979.

I also have a Vantage, Stage, and , jl 112s.


I would say each to their own with respect to your comments.

I think we all hope that ML thrives and maintains respectable practices in their manufacturing and service departments.

Joel

 

[Rich]

Just thinking aloud here . . . my Summits cost $10,000 new retail, and now sell for around $5,000 used. The replacement panels now cost $2,400. So, if someone is looking at buying a used pair of Summits, they have to consider the cost of the speakers themselves as well as the cost of replacing the panels at some point. That would put the cost for a set of five or ten year old speakers at three-quarters the price they sold for new. The obvious consequence is that the used prices of these speakers are going to drop a lot faster than before. This was already happening to a certain extent, with the price of the Summits on the used market dropping down to the same price as their predecessors (Prodigy) in almost no time at all. I fear with this new development, these prices will drop even faster, especially for any model over ten years old.

 

[amey01]

Just thinking aloud here . . . my Summits cost $10,000 new retail, and now sell for around $5,000 used. The replacement panels now cost $2,400. So, if someone is looking at buying a used pair of Summits, they have to consider the cost of the speakers themselves as well as the cost of replacing the panels at some point. That would put the cost for a set of five or ten year old speakers at three-quarters the price they sold for new. The obvious consequence is that the used prices of these speakers are going to drop a lot faster than before. This was already happening to a certain extent, with the price of the Summits on the used market dropping down to the same price as their predecessors (Prodigy) in almost no time at all. I fear with this new development, these prices will drop even faster, especially for any model over ten years old.

Absolutely! And what do you think anyone with this knowledge (pretty obvious for anyone that looks at eBay or Audiogon) will do when they consider Martin Logan as a new purchase?

I tell you what - they won't get past considering the brand - that's what.

 

[hifiaudio2]

Buy mine for 11k! Then you can afford replacement panels when/if that becomes an issue.


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