Call me crazy but they (magic dots) work!

[jtwrace]

With all due respect Justin, Mr. Winer's view of the audio world should be pretty obvious to all by now.

Simply stated, if you can't measure it, it does not exist. Period. End of discussion.

GG

I understand but still disagree. Maybe I want to believe what I want to hear but I really don't think so. To each his own.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Jason,

Your last post is spot on.

What I've realized with this thread, is that we all care about music, but from different perspectives.

I suspect that Mr. Winer, and others that ascribe to his view, will never understand the "I heard it but I can't measure it" position. The corrolary to this position is also true.

That's fine with me and, as I have previously stated, we can agree to respecfully disagree.

I would like the Forum's comments on the following:

1) When you listen to your system, are you listening for "accuracy" versus your subjective reaction (read emotional connectivity) to the music, or both?

2) Do you base your audio hardware upgrade decisions (want to buy component X, Y, Z whatever) on measurements versus published reviews, input from this forum, or other recognized (you personally think it is valid) subjective sources?

GG

 

[Bernard]

1) When you listen to your system, are you listening for "accuracy" versus your subjective reaction (read emotional connectivity) to the music, or both?

I listen for emotional connectivity as it is the music in which I am interested, not the equipment; accuracy is a bonus. Hell, do I even know what accurate is? - I love my Koetsu, which has been referred to as romantic, lush, caramel-coloured, etc.

2) Do you base your audio hardware upgrade decisions (want to buy component X, Y, Z whatever) on measurements versus published reviews, input from this forum, or other recognized (you personally think it is valid) subjective sources?

GG

I never look at measurements. I look at published reviews and input from this forum as a very rough guide. In my ears I trust.

 

[David Matz]

Hi Jason,

Your last post is spot on.

What I've realized with this thread, is that we all care about music, but from different perspectives.

I suspect that Mr. Winer, and others that ascribe to his view, will never understand the "I heard it but I can't measure it" position. The corrolary to this position is also true.

That's fine with me and, as I have previously stated, we can agree to respecfully disagree.

I would like the Forum's comments on the following:

1) When you listen to your system, are you listening for "accuracy" versus your subjective reaction (read emotional connectivity) to the music, or both?

2) Do you base your audio hardware upgrade decisions (want to buy component X, Y, Z whatever) on measurements versus published reviews, input from this forum, or other recognized (you personally think it is valid) subjective sources?

GG

Gordon, I listen to music for the emotional connection. Personally, I could care less what anyone else says or thinks. Bryston 14BSST is supposed to be the best measuring amp ever. It has great detail, but really lacks emotion. Compared to an Ayre V1XE it is sterile. Comparing the Ayre V1XE to the CJ 350, the Ayre sounds like a robot, and it is the second best amp I have heard. Thank God we have a choice of products!

 

[amey01]

Thank God we have a choice of products!

Therein lies the crux of the issue - if measurements were all we needed, then there would only be a need for the "best" measuring product (singular) and all others could go get off.......

 

[Ethan Winer]

And loudspeakers? Most also have a wideband response +/- 2 or 3 dB, are reasonably phase accurate, low distortion and zero noise.

Not so. Most loudspeakers have a terrible response, riddled with peaks and nulls. The published data might look flat, but that's because vendors often apply smoothing to the graphs to hide the detail. Then there's off-axis response which is rarely the same as on-axis. How speakers vary between on- and off-axis is different for every model. So that's why speakers might appear to measure similarly yet sound very different. When measured properly, and at multiple angles, the frequency response should measure the same as they sound.

As for distortion, very few speaker makers publish that, so I don't know how you conclude they have low distortion. Further, even if a speaker maker does publish distortion figures, you'd need to see the data for different frequency ranges and at low and high SPL levels. A speaker might be less than 1 percent THD at 1 KHz when played softly, but much higher at 100 dB SPL and at lower frequencies. Also, IM distortion is even more damaging than THD because the artifacts are not musically related to the original source.

I do agree with the zero noise though.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

I'd personally be absolutely amazed if a nice new pair of CLX's in the room shown in the video wouldn't improve things just a tinsy bit, to say the least.

Perhaps. I've never tried those speakers so I honestly can't say. I do like the Mackies a lot though.

If you were to try the above, along with an appropriate amp, and reported no difference...

Say what? I'm sure if I changed speakers I would hear a very big change! All speakers sound different for the reasons I just explained above.

The "below 60Hz" comment astounded me as well!

Not sure which comment you mean, and I don't have time to watch all 15 minutes now to find it. Please clarify.

--Ethan

 

[tonepub]

Of course it does. What else do you think there is beyond the four basic parameters of frequency response, noise, distortion, and time-based errors? If you can identify another as-yet unknown audio parameter, I promise there's a Nobel Prize in your future.

--Ethan

I just did and I'm really tired of your condescending, smart ass attitude. I've spent plenty of time in labs with some great engineers measuring more than my share of amplifiers.

And I've heard plenty of amplifiers that measure identically but sound different, as well as cables.

If you believe that all amplifiers sound the same and all wire sounds the same, we have nothing in common, other than agreeing on the case for good room treatments.

It's obvious that you aren't going to change any of our minds, nor are we going to change yours. However, I don't think the consistently snarkey attitude is doing your company any good in terms of anyone here wanting to part with any of their hard earned cash to invest in a product (that they can get elsewhere) and be treated like they are complete morons.

Granted, I still think the dots are a little out there (which was the original subject of this post), but this is still a HOBBY/Passtime for most people. We aren't curing cancer or trying to win the war on terror here.

Your attitude is precisely what is driving people from high end audio in droves....

 

[C.A.P]

Well said !

 

[marigolabs]

Marigo Labs

Hi,
your interest and comments on the VTS Tuning Dots is appreciated. I have only short spaces of time to reply so be patient. I am very busy with distributor orders in other countries especially Hong Kong right now as there seems to be a show coming up there soon. FYI, our sales in the USA barely exist right now.
Let's start with some quick background. I have training in both physics and engineering. I've working in Research and Development Labs, to running a statistical process control department, to engineering on military rapid deployment jet engine vibrational test facilities. In the audio world, for me, my strong inclination for end user testing of audio accessories, as well as my own product development, is that the ear plus brain is the only set of tools needed. I can of course but do not use instrumentation.
I have had the VTS Dots out for many years. I have kept at improving this product as new materials become available and my knowledge grows. See the link below for the latest vibration control product I just released this fall after much R&D. If you feel reading this short review is an advertising or sales promotion, then I insist you do not click on the link. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/marigo.htm
There are a great many applications for the VTS Dots. See our website or I'll add a link later if needed. Window treatment is but one app. Each window would get a VTS Dot about one inch from each corner. That is, 4 Dots per glass pane. There were comments about cost. Here are those details: A glass pane 4 sq feet or less would use the 30mm Superdots. Cost is $49/set of 4. A pane between 5 and 12 sq feet would use the 40mm Superdots. Cost is $79/set of 4. A large pane above 13 sq feet would use the 60mm Superdots. Cost is $139/set of 4.
The VTS Dots are custom manufactured in house. I designed and built a 6 foot long 200 pound piece of propritary machinery for the VTS Dot material fabrication. Each 40mm and 60mm Superdot is 16 layers of materials. The thin proprietary constraining layers between the thicker, easily seen layers costs me well in excess of $1000 per roll. The VTS Tuning Dots are not a material I source, then make discs from, and give a name to.
I will try to have some time tomorrow to post more.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I'm really tired of your condescending, smart ass attitude ... the consistently snarkey attitude ... be treated like they are complete morons ... Your attitude is precisely what is driving people from high end audio in droves

Wow.

You said there's more to audio fidelity than frequency response and distortion and noise, and I simply asked you to explain what else there is. How is that condescending?

The same goes for "musical" and "pace, rhythm, and timing" - those are not parameters either.

BTW, I never said all amplifiers sound the same. I said that all amps that measure the same will by definition sound the same. Assuming all that is relevant is measured.

I'll never understand why some people get so angry and insulting about this stuff. I go out of my way to be polite, and calmly explain the facts as I see them. Why can't you and others do the same?

Again I ask you to explain what other parameters affect audio. If you can't do that, maybe you should rethink your position? And I'm sorry if that seems condescending. I don't know any other way to put it.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

It's obvious that you aren't going to change any of our minds, nor are we going to change yours.

You know, I find this comment really sad. If you or others could elucidate exactly where I'm wrong, I promise I'd change my opinion in a heartbeat. Yet your position is that no matter what points I make, or how compelling my logic might be, you will never change your opinion?

I have tried very hard to be clear, and stay on topic, and discuss only the science. I have asked some pointed questions, but I thought that's how technical discussions are supposed to go.

If y'all prefer me to leave and stop posting, I'll gladly do so.

--Ethan

 

[RichTeer]

Wow.

You said there's more to audio fidelity than frequency response and distortion and noise, and I simply asked you to explain what else there is. How is that condescending?

The same goes for "musical" and "pace, rhythm, and timing" - those are not parameters either.

I'm not so sure on that latter paragraph. I tried some interconnect cables a few weeks ago, and I noticed better imaging as a result (amonsgt other things). How do only frequency response, distortion, and noise explain what I heard?

There must be something else in the equation, although I am at a loss to say what.

 

[RichTeer]

If y'all prefer me to leave and stop posting, I'll gladly do so.

Even though I disagree with much of what you write--room acoustics excepted!--I appreciate much of your input. It is through healthy debate that we all learn something, and this would be a pretty boring place if everyone agreed all the time!

 

[jtwrace]

measure vs hearing.....

Ethan-

So, being that one could install properly placed acoustic treatments and measure the change you feel that is positive (in theory the change will only help). right? What do you say if someone installs them and says there is NO change or that it actually HURT the sound? I'm sure that has happened at some point.

 

[Burke]

I'm not so sure on that latter paragraph. I tried some interconnect cables a few weeks ago, and I noticed better imaging as a result (amonsgt other things). How do only frequency response, distortion, and noise explain what I heard?

There must be something else in the equation, although I am at a loss to say what.

All cable (pair of wires) has an impedance, resistance, and capacitance. These three properties, and when they are combined with the crossover in a speaker change its frequency response.

This is why cables can sound different

 

[Ethan Winer]

Even though I disagree with much of what you write ...

This has been kinda my point all along. It's fine that you disagree! But can't you express why you think I'm wrong and, more important, what is right? When I see things I think are wrong, I'm never at a loss for words to say what I think is wrong in very specific detail.

It is through healthy debate that we all learn something, and this would be a pretty boring place if everyone agreed all the time!

Indeed, and if we can get some folks to work on the anger aspect, maybe both sides can learn something. :banana:

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

So, being that one could install properly placed acoustic treatments and measure the change you feel that is positive (in theory the change will only help). right?

Sure. Audiophiles tend to obsess over things that resonate, and buy dampers and iso platforms etc. Well, a room resonates all over the place! How could reducing room resonance ever not help? How could reducing huge peaks and nulls not be a Good Thing?

What do you say if someone installs them and says there is NO change or that it actually HURT the sound? I'm sure that has happened at some point.

Yes, it has happened, but only three or four times I can recall in my 5+ years in this business. Only once did someone report not hearing a difference. The other times I think they were kind of shocked at the change, and felt something was missing. In this case, probably the extra ambience in their room. After many years of never hearing a well-treated room, I can see how someone might find the change too extreme. But this is definitely a very small minority, and has been extremely rare.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

All cable (pair of wires) has an impedance, resistance, and capacitance. These three properties, and when they are combined with the crossover in a speaker change its frequency response. This is why cables can sound different

Yes, but only if the change is, say, 0.1 dB or larger at audio frequencies. This is easily measured.

BTW, I don't think all speaker cables sound the same. I'm aware of some built so badly (too much capacitance) that they roll off the highs a noticeable amount. In extreme cases, such as some flat wire, the capacitance is so high it can cause a marginal power amplifier to oscillate. So wire can vary. The real question is if common zip cord is up to the task, and if "specialty" wire is better in a way that actually matters. Versus changes only in the MHz range.

--Ethan

 

[amey01]

If you or others could elucidate exactly where I'm wrong,

WE CAN'T because it is unknown! That's the whole point. Other things are going on, but WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE! It's only 2008!

If y'all prefer me to leave and stop posting, I'll gladly do so.

Please don't - all opinions are good. This place would be boring if everyone agreed.