Best speaker cable for CLS?

[nsgarch]

FWIW, while we all tend to preach...."let your ears decide", the truth is there are a fair number of supposed audiophiles that really don't know what 'good sound' really is !

I agree, but when I raise that issue (don't know what 'good sound' really is ) I prefer to say "people don't know what to listen for". That always invites the "why not?" response. And then I get to say, "because nobody ever took the time to teach them!"

People don't evaluate live sound! (Except for, "can you hear me OK in the back?" ) It's LIVE, for God sake; what's to evaluate? Becoming a skilled listener of reproduced sound requires some degree of instruction, which must be given in real time ! I have provided friends with 'what to listen for' lists in lieu of my actual divine presence -- however that was in connection with tube rolling, and using the same equipment as my own. They had no trouble hearing things to which I directed their attention. The reward for me, believe it or not, is that when they were done listening, they choose a different sound then I would have -- but now they had total confidence in their choice! Lots of people have sharpened my listening over the years, but they tend not to volunteer. So when you're at a show or some other venue and you see some old fart listening intently to some speakers, ask him/her to tell you what they hear. Occasionally you'll strike gold. Most of the time it'll be that guy who once said, "I don't know anything about Art, but I know what I hate!"

 

[DTB300]

People don't evaluate live sound! (Except for, "can you hear me OK in the back?" ) It's LIVE, for God sake; what's to evaluate?

Sorry, but I do.

What's to evaluate? My hard earned money versus the performance (group and sound quality) I am going to listen to. An example: Local Classical performances - I prefer Strathmore Hall over the Kennedy Center. If the NSO or BSO is playing the same piece in both places, I will attend the one at Strathmore.

There are many place I will refuse to hear live music as the sound is very poor. Why pay for crap when you do not have to?

Just because it is LIVE does not equate automatically to good sound, let it be amplified, un-amplified, coffee shop, bar, concert hall, or where ever. It is just LIVE.

 

[C.A.P]

I guess I find my self stuck between a pocket protector and a Margarita. Science has its facts, but in audio its never a guarantee. Just because it measures good does not mean it will sound good. Take for instance the Macintosh theory, " we are ruler flat from 20 to 20,000 HZ" Thats great on paper but in real life if it sounds like a TV with white noise to your ears what good is Science.

Not to be rude or crash, but if you do not run CLS or have a lot of first hand experience with them you can not assume that if this sounds good with my HYBRID Logans it will with the CLS. NOPE , NOTA , Quit dreaming! The CLS are the single most revealing speakers of Electronics and cables that I have heard. They will reveal things that are not even heard with Hybrids. However; Just because I run them does not make me the expert , just a educated (on the subject) Bystander



Yes We know from our audio memory that some things are a no no and some things are known to cause this effect. Only way to actually test cables is have both on hand and do a thorough A B testing with the same music. I just did this and found the Transparent not to my liking. They have sounded wonderful on just about every speaker I have heard them on but not my CLS.


I think the original post was"Best speaker cable for the CLS".
That is a open ended question as He should have said "Whats the best speaker cable for my SYSTEM to get the best synergy with my CLS". That way we could base our decisions on what he runs and what we run to compare. Some amps will sound like shat with some cables. Especially with the CLS! Making hard facts out of your assumptions and claiming Science to prove it means nothing but numbers and measurements. Close your eyes and test it the old fashioned way !

 

[User211]

Sorry, but I do.

So do (did really - I barely go to gigs these days) I. Gigs can be totally wrecked with bad sound quality and also a poor venue. Another thing that can wreck a gig is VOLUME. I used to go to a lot of punk gigs and some of them were so loud it was absurd. Your ears would ring for a week afterwards... it can't have done them any good!

Which leads me to a Lemmy joke - "How do you sell a deaf geezer a frog?". Answer:

"WANNA BUY A FROG???!!!":yell::yell::yell::yell:

 

[nsgarch]

Just because it is LIVE does not equate automatically to good sound,

Of course not, and frankly, I'm just a little insulted you'd assume that's what I meant My point was that live sound just 'is-what-it-is'. One can make no judgement about if or how well it represents the original event. It is the original event! What you hear is what you get!

I'd be far more interested in some creative suggestions for developing peoples' listening skills. It would be great if some real pros like like Steve Hoffman would offer a seminar from time to time. Or maybe a little guide book listing some easily acquired or borrowed recordings, that have qualities (good or bad) one could easily hear on most systems once they were pointed out. Do you know, for instance, what the two most difficult to record sources are? Grand piano and the human (operatic) voice. Why? Because the have the widest dynamics -- always a good test of system distortion (if nothing else )

BTW, I agree w/ CAP, the subject of this thread probably should have been, "What's the best kind of speaker cable for a CLS?"

 

[DTB300]

Of course not, and frankly, I'm just a little insulted you'd assume that's what I meant

Never said that is what you ment, you just ASSUMED it by reading between the lines instead of asking.

We were discussing cables and which sounded good (based on science, figures, price, and sound), then live music was brought up, and since most seem to want their setups to equal live music (never a chance), I stated even live music can sound bad. Sorry your britches climbed up with that statement.

So then what do we do for our rigs to make it sound great? Listen. My bottom line for all of this discussion, and find the sound you like. It is not right, it is not wrong, it is what you like, so it is the best.

 

[nsgarch]

DBT -- you were quite clear and unambiguous, "What's to evaluate? My hard earned money versus the performance (group and sound quality)" Yup, you can make that judgement. But good or bad, it's still live and not a recording; so there's nothing to evaluate on that basis. I think I was also quite clear about that.

 

[raanan]

Thanks for all replies.
Most of my system tends to be on the cooler sound of neutral-ARC VS110 with KT88EH,and the Russian small signal supertubes,a linestage running 7233 tubes,DPA and Black Mountain ICs,a PS300 feeding the CLSIIAs and the turntable-an EMT950 that I was fortunate to pick up.The PCs feeding the speakers are Granite 555,which are warmer than most of the system.
I am currently using AZ Satori speaker cables-6 feet.
I don't have the available pastafazoola for megabuck speaker cables.
I would like to be able to add some midrange magic without losing too much precision-like all of us.
I should have stated all the above in my original post,but I see that some members have enjoyed themselves in the interim,so that I guess that I should not feel overly guilty.

 

[nsgarch]

Hi Raanan.
I thought the VS110 came w/ 6550 power tubes -- do you like the KT-88's better (or did it come with them?)

Many CLS owners (including me) use tastier PC's but I'm not sure they do anything better than the stock ones except reject RFI perhaps (because the stats just need a trickle of current to keep them charged, even at high volumes.) I think the P300 might be overkill though ;-)

AZ Satori SC has an excellent reputation, however if you read the (somewhat sketchy) description of it's construction on AZ's website, it does sound like a highly stranded product. I just shot them an email to find out what the capacitance rating is for the Satori. If it isn't in the range that works well for stats, there are plenty of solid core(s) offerings in that price range from Audio Quest, Alpha Core, Mapleshade and lower priced Nordost, to name a few. But never buy anything without asking the manufacturer for specifications if they're not published.

 

[raanan]

Thanks,Neil

Hi Raanan.
I thought the VS110 came w/ 6550 power tubes -- do you like the KT-88's better (or did it come with them?)

Many CLS owners (including me) use tastier PC's but I'm not sure they do anything better than the stock ones except reject RFI perhaps (because the stats just need a trickle of current to keep them charged, even at high volumes.) I think the P300 might be overkill though ;-)

AZ Satori SC has an excellent reputation, however if you read the (somewhat sketchy) description of it's construction on AZ's website, it does sound like a highly stranded product. I just shot them an email to find out what the capacitance rating is for the Satori. If it isn't in the range that works well for stats, there are plenty of solid core(s) offerings in that price range from Audio Quest, Alpha Core, Mapleshade and lower priced Nordost, to name a few. But never buy anything without asking the manufacturer for specifications if they're not published.

Thanks,Neil,for the specific suggestions.I received the VS110 originally with EH6550s.Leonard at ARC confirmed the suitability of KT88s by phone.
An octet of the wrong Russian tubes blew the amp,so I then scoured the net to see which KT88s were considered the most rugged.Settled on EH.They do sound fuller than the 6550s-just by a bit.
Then the power transformer started rattling-defective,and it appears,just downright badly conceived and executed with cheap wire.
The amp is definitely on the bland side.
Using the P300 is beneficial-yielding a more refined sound without losing anything.The CLSs trickle charge-drawing a max of 10 watts.The Granite PCs add just a little-by reducing RFI,but the difference is unmistakable.
I will now continue my search ,within the guidelines that you have laid down.
BTW,with the old ESL57s-they sounded good with plain electrical cord.
As P. Sprey of Mapleshade uses CLSs in his studio-it might be an idea to ask which speaker cable he is using.
Raanan

 

[nsgarch]

Raanan, AZ Satori speaker cable is 25 pF per foot. That's just on the 'high side of low' but still quite acceptable for use w/ stats.

 

[ML4Life]

Resurrecting this thread. So I have CLSII'S and was thinking AQ Rocket 44"s. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[msimanyi]

I'm not familiar with those cables, but I will encourage you to check out the multi-thousand response thread in the PS Audio forum discussing Iconoclast cables - speaker and interconnect - and check out their site as well.

Thread
Site

The primary engineer behind them uses them in his personal system, which I believe is comprised of CLX or possibly CLX Art, some T+A electronics, and I don't recall what else. I've opted for their speaker cables and a number of their interconnects, and they are outstanding. They do have a 30 day demo available, if I recall correctly.

Note that Galen - the man behind the cables - is a retired Belden engineer who has come up with some sound and innovative products. They aren't inexpensive, but they're tremendous value at their price points.

Apologies for the long message if these are outside your budget.




Final note: I haven't viewed this video, but it might be useful. Galen tends to get deep into the science and engineering, which could be good or make your eyes glaze over, but at least he offers transparency that the rest of the industry appears to eschew.

 

[ttocs]

Nine years ago I did a test of about a half dozen cables with a Krell amp, Vista speakers, and two generations earlier of pre/pro than I have now, but similar voltage output.

I went from the ridiculous on up the food chain, starting with 16 gauge zip cord, then basic AQ Star Quad ($50-60 bucks?), then whatever the next jump up from that was (couple hundred $), Rocket 44, Rocket 88, and whatever was the next big jump above the 88's.

The zip cord had the most treble and no bass. Star Quad was ok. The $200 AQ was the sweet spot with the most neutral sound. And moving up the food chain in $$$$ had less and less treble with each jump in cost making it "seem" like there was more bass, but the bass really didn't "get louder", the treble just got softer, lower in level. After speaking several times with the AQ rep in California and getting nowhere with reasons for why I heard what I did, I gave up with AQ and continued to experiment with DIY to see why speaker cables do what they do. What I found was that cables with higher Capacitance had less treble when coupled with my amps and processors, and that is still true today even though the amps, speakers, and processors have changed.

So I can confidently say that ML stats have higher levels of treble frequencies when using speaker cables with less Capacitance.

Speaker cable is one part of the chain which can be used to tune the system. Too much or little of one end of the frequency range? Just use a speaker cable size/design to compensate.

 

[Robert D]

Nine years ago I did a test of about a half dozen cables with a Krell amp, Vista speakers, and two generations earlier of pre/pro than I have now, but similar voltage output.

I went from the ridiculous on up the food chain, starting with 16 gauge zip cord, then basic AQ Star Quad ($50-60 bucks?), then whatever the next jump up from that was (couple hundred $), Rocket 44, Rocket 88, and whatever was the next big jump above the 88's.

The zip cord had the most treble and no bass. Star Quad was ok. The $200 AQ was the sweet spot with the most neutral sound. And moving up the food chain in $$$$ had less and less treble with each jump in cost making it "seem" like there was more bass, but the bass really didn't "get louder", the treble just got softer, lower in level. After speaking several times with the AQ rep in California and getting nowhere with reasons for why I heard what I did, I gave up with AQ and continued to experiment with DIY to see why speaker cables do what they do. What I found was that cables with higher Capacitance had less treble when coupled with my amps and processors, and that is still true today even though the amps, speakers, and processors have changed.

So I can confidently say that ML stats have higher levels of treble frequencies when using speaker cables with less Capacitance.

Speaker cable is one part of the chain which can be used to tune the system. Too much or little of one end of the frequency range? Just use a speaker cable size/design to compensate.

How about if you add into this equation the use of DSP. Something like ARC or Adyssey. Would that negate a lot of this effect and even things out?

 

[ttocs]

How about if you add into this equation the use of DSP. Something like ARC or Adyssey. Would that negate a lot of this effect and even things out?

Yes. But now that I'm trying to think of a response to your question to explain "how" the frequency range would be altered, I'm now not certain how much of the range is lowered, vs raising the upper range that is falling off. I'll have to see if I have before/after examples I can pull from to verify, or I'll just run some more this weekend.

What I'm getting at is that Dirac, the app I use, more likely lowers most of the frequency range below where the rolloff is, and might raise the rolloff just a little.

 

[Robert D]

Yes. But now that I'm trying to think of a response to your question to explain "how" the frequency range would be altered, I'm now not certain how much of the range is lowered, vs raising the upper range that is falling off. I'll have to see if I have before/after examples I can pull from to verify, or I'll just run some more this weekend.

What I'm getting at is that Dirac, the app I use, more likely lowers most of the frequency range below where the rolloff is, and might raise the rolloff just a little.

It would be cool to see a graph comparing before and after DIRAC on different sets of cables. What im wondering, maybe DSP like DIRAC will make what speaker cable you use a little less important?

 

[Fidji99]

So I can confidently say that ML stats have higher levels of treble frequencies when using speaker cables with less Capacitance.

Speaker cable is one part of the chain which can be used to tune the system. Too much or little of one end of the frequency range? Just use a speaker cable size/design to compensate.

The same is valid for every cable - I have similar experience with signal XLR cables - StarQuad with higher capacitance vs "normal" XLR cable.
Higher Capacitance = less treble.

 

[ttocs]

It would be cool to see a graph comparing before and after DIRAC on different sets of cables. What im wondering, maybe DSP like DIRAC will make what speaker cable you use a little less important?

oops. You know what? I was confusing this thread with another I responded to earlier.

I don't have access to the cables I used nine years ago. But, I can make some test cables with high Capacitance and measure what happens.

 

[jimbill]

I use Blue Jean (Belden) cables, just because I wanted professionally made cables.

How can a cable be "slow"? Does it slow down the speed of light to an audible difference?

And it still amazes me that audiophiles will spend thousands of dollars on cables and interconnects and still balk at the price of the BACCH4mac system ($5,000). The audible difference is obvious to ANYONE who sits down in front of it.