Who makes the amps inside Martin Logan speakers and subs??

[edwinr]

I've helped pull apart a pair of ATC SCM50 speakers for repair. The drivers ARE very substantial; the in built amp looks okay, and the speaker boxes are well built, BUT... when you remove the hardware and see what you've got, there's a big question mark over how they can justify the huge cost of these things.

I have to agree with Roberto about the B&W 802's. Fabulous sounding, but again, it's just a fancy box with a bunch of drivers screwed into some cut outs. I know B&W have spend lots of $$$ on research and development. Again, the asking price is way out there.

With nearly every high end speaker I've seen opened, I've been disappointed to find mainly air inside. Sometimes you'll find the cabinets have been stuffed with some kind of packing - but mostly it's just air.

At least with Martin Logan, you can see where your money is going. The electrostatic panels are on show, not hidden away in a fancy cabinet. Just consider the build quality and engineering on show with the new panels. While there's nothing too exciting about Martin Logan's bass cabinets - they've got a job to do and they do it well, they're well constructed with some solid engineering to get the response that they offer.

 

[twich54]

What do you think the parts cost? $1000 is probably low, but probably not too far off.

perhaps...........

Not including R&D, overhead costs, support costs, etc, of course,

and there in lies the difference between building something as a 'hobby' and doing it for a business (profit).

Let's be honest here

I am .....

these are pretty damn simple speakers

so...why didn't you invent them and make all this juicy profit ? .......Ok, back to the honesty thing, the simplicity of which you speak took many years of evolution and improvements in design which in turn equates to time and $$

Hocky, truth be told I do not know what M/L's true cost per speaker is but realize as I'm sure you do the respective msrp reflects alot more than 'the sum of the parts' !

 

[repman]

I am not sure what dealer markup is but I'm guessing 30-40% is also figured into the retail price

 

[edwinr]

30% to 40% sounds about right. But that's only dealer mark up. The profit margin would be lots less. They've got to pay their staff and there's leasing and utilities to factor in as well.

 

[repman]

30% to 40% sounds about right. But that's only dealer mark up. The profit margin would be lots less. They've got to pay their staff and there's leasing and utilities to factor in as well.

I understand that my point was that there are a lot of layers that go into the price we pay for speakers at the dealer .

 

[Hocky]

Hocky, truth be told I do not know what M/L's true cost per speaker is but realize as I'm sure you do the respective msrp reflects alot more than 'the sum of the parts' !

No argument. My only point was only that there are really no high end or expensive parts in ML speakers as was alluded to earlier based on the internal amp.

And FWIW, I walked out with 1 month old dealer demo Summit X for $9k and I know that the dealer was still making money. There is probably more markup than 30-40% on the dealer side if sold at MSRP.

 

[roberto]

Hola Hoky...with all respect, do you find in other speakers, capacitors, as an example, made in France? In ML you do. Al resistors are rated 1% of their value. Also you find thick film on alumina substrate resistors and polypropylene capacitors, inside some ML models. These parts are very expensive. Believe or not, Martin Logan speakers are built with high quality components. I think, with all respect, that Martin Logan is like a good German car, like a Mercedes Benz, BMW or Audi. You can get a Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Maserati, or a Lamborghini, cars that are very expensive, but you have to pay a lot for them. It is like Magico Q5... the retail price in U.S. is $ 90.000.00 for the pair... nice construction, expensive, very expensive, and what I did listen was as good as our beloved ML sound. Some things, like the dynamics at the percussion, I thought they were very different, but not necessary better than ML presentation. Over all, I did like ML, costing thousands of thousands dollars less, and this is our privilege...everything it is a matter of liking. My claim is: you do find high expensive parts inside your Martin Logan. You find custom wound toroidal transformers, air core coils and polypropylene capacitors. I am very proud when I see the quality built of any product of ML. You see inside, quality everywhere. Regarding the amplifier, it is just that, an amplifier that B&O makes. The same that you find in Bel Canto and other digital amplifiers. I do not think that this amplifier only costs $100.00 a piece. And if this is the cost, you know that you have $200.00 on every self powered woofers, power amps that you know that are expensive in other brands, so you got a bargain from ML...I do understand your point, we all will like to have our beloved sound from ML costing only a 10% of their retail value. My friends, have a very happy listening!

 

[Tosh]

... I think, with all respect, that Martin Logan is like a good German car, like a Mercedes Benz, BMW or Audi. You can get a Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Maserati, or a Lamborghini, cars that are very expensive, but you have to pay a lot for them. ....

No, no, no! ML is like a Corvette....

 

[roberto]

Magneplanar is like a Corvette... I know what it is inside too. Happy listening!

 

[babydoc]

You've probably overestimated the cost of raw goods

BUT:

You're all forgetting a few things:



1. R&D cost
2. Labour and tooling
3. Site/factory costs (the lights don't stay on for free)
and importantly,
4. Profit - no, not a dirty word, but necessary for the operation to continue.
5. Many more things......

That said - the cost of replacement panels are a joke, and maybe the cost of the base product should come down if ML are going to continue this "printer cartridge" pricing model, where the bulk of their profit comes from sales of consumables.

This thread has touched on a "hot button" issue in the audio business-the cost of doing all of the business and the price charged to consumers. As a reviewer, I am continually impressed by how, in a number of instances, the performance of a component, like a loudspeaker, does not match the sticker price. All of Amey01's points are well taken with R&D being a variable that can be quite high, given time and materials. High end audio being a niche industry, a component needs to figure out sales volume needed to recover R&D costs as well as the continued costs of production, packaging, and shipping. I can think of a number of "high profile" speaker systems, some running over six figures where there are diminishing returns on investment (Heard such an example two years ago at CES where $300K speakers delivered about $30K worth of performance, at best). A strategy that I would suggest when consider speakers where the manufacturer has a line of several models with ascending price tags is to try to audition them from the ground floor up. There is usually a "sweet spot" where a speaker in the middle to upper end (but not top) of the range gives a listener so much performance value that no more money need be spent.
Yes, I agree that replacement panels outside of warranty period are expensive. Fortunately, most of the newer ML panels seem to be constructed for a nice long run. Rather than using the printer cartridge analogy, I would see this as the car that you have driven, enjoyed, and owned for a number of years that now needs significant servicing and replacement parts. If you love the car you will fix it and keep it on the road. If you feel it is time to replace, then you will get a new one.

Like Roberto, I also open equipment up that is under review (when this is possible) to look for quality of parts and construction. This is not a guarantee of great sound but it usually does make a statement of reliability in the field over time. While most of the MLs that I have owned seem built to good quality standards, there are speaker lines (Paradigm being one) where good quality parts and construction are also found.

 

[MPS]

Years ago average consumer electronics device materials cost would have been about 10% of the retail price. I have no particular reason to believe anything has changed. However there are always exceptions. Specialty products are not necessary priced based to manufacturing cost but to meet certain price point at the intended market. This is totally acceptable as if the product sells then the manufacturer/retailer as well as consumer agree to product vs cost, sometimes it is required to up the price for credibility of the product.
When it comes to re-paneling cost of our beloved ML speakers, I would really love to see cost level change from current trend of disposable product to return back to durable consumer products. Wouldn't this make such a great statement for respect of the quality of product as well as environmental aspect.