Which Sub to buy with SL3 and surround speakers suggestions.

[RUR]

I'm concerend about remastered older material such as The Who---as they often place instruments in separate channels.

Below ~80Hz, sound is non-directional - we get our directional cues from higher frequency harmonics, not the below 80Hz fundamentals.

As Gary has indicated, two subs are better than one. Properly positioned* and set up, they'll pretty much always provide smoother, flatter response (more accurate bass) than a single, and that should be one of your primary goals.

*i.e. not where they look pretty or symmetrical, but where they provide best FR @ the listening position(s).

 

[sb6]

I have 1 Grotto smack in the middle of my SL3s and it provides just enough extra bass to balance out the panels, IMO. It essentially disappears into the sound stage as it should. Since the lowest freq cannot be directionally detected, I never quite understood the logic of have 2 subs, especially with the increasing complexity of room placement and extra cost. My 2 cents.

 

[RUR]

...I never quite understood the logic of have 2 subs, especially with the increasing complexity of room placement and extra cost.

It's done to achieve smoother response, esp. in the absence of EQ and/or for multiple seating positions. Through careful positioning, the subs frequency responses complement each other to mitigate room modes. Yes, it's more complex, but the improvement in FR linearity is usually substantial. And personally, I'd rather have two lesser subs than one greater viz. it's not necessarily more expensive.

Harman research

Earl Geddes approach

 

[sb6]

MLs are far from known for multiple seating positions and off axis, the sound stage is essentially absent (and IMO they sound out of balance and horrible) so I'm not sure how that matters for MLs. And if anything, multiple subs (not to mention the addition of the SL3 subs) will most often exacerbate/create nulls and peaks, making placement and acoustic treatment much more crucial. For added benefit, the implementation of a PEQ would be beneficial. Only then will any improvement in FR linearity be appreciated. And for the price of 2 decent quality musical subs, I'd personally look into upgrading from the SL3s + sub $ to Odysseys or Summits, which avoids the added challenges with placement, nulls, peaks, etc, etc.

 

[RUR]

MLs are far from known for multiple seating positions and off axis, the sound stage is essentially absent (and IMO they sound out of balance and horrible) so I'm not sure how that matters for MLs..

Even if you have a single seat sweet spot (as I do), whatever frequency range below Schroeder one chooses to reproduce/supplement with subwoofers will benefit from multiple, properly placed, properly setup subs.

And if anything, multiple subs (not to mention the addition of the SL3 subs) will most often exacerbate/create nulls and peaks, making placement and acoustic treatment much more crucial..

As per the links and Dr. Geddes in particular, the more bass transducers, including the mains woofers, the smoother the response i.e. properly done, modal behavior is mitigated, not exacerbated. Yes, subwoofer placement is crucial - that's the principal message contained in the links. Do we want the very best bass? Then we need to work for it, just as we do when we sweat mains placement for imaging.

For added benefit, the implementation of a PEQ would be beneficial. Only then will any improvement in FR linearity be appreciated..

PEQ is beneficial, but it's definitely not the only way to achieve linearity. In fact, PEQ will do nothing for nulls, which can be mitigated (though not always) with multiple subs.

And for the price of 2 decent quality musical subs, I'd personally look into upgrading from the SL3s + sub $ to Odysseys or Summits, which avoids the added challenges with placement, nulls, peaks, etc, etc.

I'm afraid it doesn't. Mains are ideally placed for imaging, and the best placement for imaging is never the best placement to manage modal behavior.

 

[sb6]

The problem which you downplay is - "Properly placed, properly setup, properly done". To achieve this may not even be practical or affordable. Are you assuming HG5150 has adequate bass traps, diffusers, absorbers? Is the room square, open to another area? Is is a small, med or large room? Are there any restrictions on sub(s) placement?

And while it is true that a desired range below the Schroeder freq can be beneficial with multiple subs, it is not always practical. With the facts provided, 1 sub is a simpler, most likely more affordable, and is easier to - properly place, properly setup, properly do.

 

[RUR]

The problem which you downplay is - "Properly placed, properly setup, properly done". To achieve this may not even be practical or affordable. Are you assuming HG5150 has adequate bass traps, diffusers, absorbers? Is the room square, open to another area? Is is a small, med or large room? Are there any restrictions on sub(s) placement?

And while it is true that a desired range below the Schroeder freq can be beneficial with multiple subs, it is not always practical. With the facts provided, 1 sub is a simpler, most likely more affordable, and is easier to - properly place, properly setup, properly do.

The "facts" I'm responding to are:

"I want something that is musical but can apply to home theater as well. Tight accurate bass."

"I am considering two subs depending on the feedback from this post."

"Wondering if anyone has input on...the idea of twin subs as I have two pre-outs."

"Still looking for suggestions regarding the use of one or two subs."

"Looks like I am narrowing it down to either one Decenti, two Depthi, two Grottos, or JL F113."

Clearly, he wants input on 2 vs. 1 sub, and he can afford two if it's justified. I don't think I'm downplaying insurmountable difficulties - it's a straightforward process which anyone with a pair of ears can follow.

Now, whether a two-sub setup is practical or not is surely up to the OP, as only he can decide how much flexibility he has. BTW, one need not place the subs in ideal locations to realize the improvement 2 vs. 1 provide, and that improvement is independent of room treatment, room size, shape or openings. Sure, one sub is simpler, but I'm offering the OP an objectively better solution involving just a little bit of effort.

 

[sb6]

Your facts are inaccurate. From HT5150's posts:
- would like to incorporate A SUB to deepen the lows.
- musical and home theater
- I am CONSIDERING two subs depending on the feedback from this post.
- the IDEA of twin subs as I have two pre-out
- looking for SUGGESTIONS regarding the use of one or two sub
- ML said that I should look at one Decenti or MAYBE two Depths or Grottos for what I am trying to achieve.

Even ML is not offering advice quantifiably ruling out 1 sub, and I'll bet if his conversation was a bit more in depth, they'd be giving advice on sound treatment/room placement especially with 2 subs.

As for - "one need not place the subs in ideal locations to realize the improvement 2 vs. 1 provide, and that improvement is independent of room treatment, room size, shape or openings" - this may be true for home theater for increased SP levels at very low freq, but for music, this is not the case. I think you need to rethink your logic especially for music setups as if this is your philosophy, I highly recommend you educate yourself on room treatments and speaker placement.

Happy listening - with clean articulate bass!

 

[bzr]

I have a suggestion. In todays world of people hiding behind a reason or premise why not state why & how this knowledge has come to prevail in your train of thought, we are all here to help one another , no?

 

[RUR]

I highly recommend you educate yourself on room treatments ....

Got a room full of absorbers and diffusors, thanks! Stating that a particular subwoofer approach provides advantages independent of room treatment != to stating that room treatment is unnecessary or undesirable.

No offense, but I'm done discussing this with you.

@bzr
Dunno if you were addressing me, but the science behind the advantages of multiple subs is set forth in the Harman link I posted earlier, as well as references 2,3 and 4 listed therein. From a personal perspective, I used a single JL for about a year, read the Harman AES paper and many, many reports, including objective data, from multi-sub users, purchased and installed a second sub, discovered a quantum improvement in bass linearity, and never looked back.

 

[Hocky]

Got a room full of absorbers and diffusors, thanks! Stating that a particular subwoofer approach provides advantages independent of room treatment != to stating that room treatment is unnecessary or undesirable.

No offense, but I'm done discussing this with you.

@bzr
Dunno if you were addressing me, but the science behind the advantages of multiple subs is set forth in the Harman link I posted earlier, as well as references 2,3 and 4 listed therein. From a personal perspective, I used a single JL for about a year, read the Harman AES paper and many, many reports, including objective data, from multi-sub users, purchased and installed a second sub, discovered a quantum improvement in bass linearity, and never looked back.

Do you have any room correction processing? If not, that makes a huge++ difference when only using 1 sub. Multiple subs is an improvement, but isn't necessary. In my opinion, buy the best sub you can afford right now and consider adding a matching sub in the future if you have uneven response at your listening seat that cannot be otherwise corrected. Personally, I tried 2xF112 and it didn't perform any better than my single descent. I ended up buying a single F212 and maybe I'll add a second in the future just to be excessive, but I don't feel like I need it. I have solid measured response from 18-80hz at my listening seat with one sub in my quite difficult room.

 

[RUR]

Do you have any room correction processing? If not, that makes a huge++ difference when only using 1 sub. Multiple subs is an improvement, but isn't necessary. In my opinion, buy the best sub you can afford right now and consider adding a matching sub in the future if you have uneven response at your listening seat that cannot be otherwise corrected. Personally, I tried 2xF112 and it didn't perform any better than my single descent. I ended up buying a single F212 and maybe I'll add a second in the future just to be excessive, but I don't feel like I need it. I have solid measured response from 18-80hz at my listening seat with one sub in my quite difficult room.

Hocky, I use a TacT 2.2XP, which provides both room correction and independent PEQ, if needed. As I pointed out earlier and as I'm sure you know, RC/PEQ cannot correct room nulls, whereas a multi-sub approach often will - or at least provide improvement. Furthermore, not all of us have EQ capability in any form, and many find the very concept abhorrent(!) These are the folks who will best benefit from a multi-sub approach.

I can't and won't comment on any single individual's personal experience for obvious reasons. I will say that the science is there for all to see and, IME @ AVS and other sites, virtually every report of multi-sub use reflects subjective and objective improvement.

Suum cuique tribuere

/Ken

 

[Hocky]

Hocky, I use a TacT 2.2XP, which provides both room correction and independent PEQ, if needed. As I pointed out earlier and as I'm sure you know, RC/PEQ cannot correct room nulls, whereas a multi-sub approach often will - or at least provide improvement. Furthermore, not all of us have EQ capability in any form, and many find the very concept abhorrent(!) These are the folks who will best benefit from a multi-sub approach.

I can't and won't comment on any single individual's personal experience for obvious reasons. I will say that the science is there for all to see and, IME @ AVS and other sites, virtually every report of multi-sub use reflects subjective and objective improvement.

Suum cuique tribuere

/Ken

I agree that you're not really going to be able to eq nulls, that is what it is and why placement in all 3 dimensions of a single sub is important. 2 subs will definitely help, but I guess my point was to not buy a lesser quality sub because you want to buy 2. Dual Grottos (or even depths) will be enough for most music in small to medium rooms, but they're probably not going to be adequate in large rooms for HT.

 

[RUR]

.....but I guess my point was to not buy a lesser quality sub because you want to buy 2. Dual Grottos (or even depths) will be enough for most music in small to medium rooms, but they're probably not going to be adequate in large rooms for HT.

and I fully agree, but we don't yet know details of the OP's room (and I checked all of his forum posts) or his ability to EQ. If we determine that he needs more capable subs, we can then suggest that he buy one to start and move to two if he wants further improvement and when finances permit. We do know that he wants dual-use, that he wants tight musical bass and that he's concerned about muddy-sounding subwoofer performance. The latter two are close-coupled to linear FR and good decay, however achieved.

/Ken

 

[robertawillisjr]

A lot of people in the sub woofer and room treatment businesses are not that hyped about multiple subs. Room treatment is vitally important as is buying the correct sub for your room and system. I am told that too many people (myself included) choose a sub that is too small (or too big) and plop it in a room that is not acoustically treated. Ultimately, more than one sub is a good target but only after getting the room correct and choosing the right sub.

Having said that, I want to know how do you choose the right sub for your situation. Only one sub selling company, took the time to look at pictures of my room and make suggestions. Of course, they chose one of their speakers but it wasn't the model that I would have chosen. Nor was it one of the costly subs.

Will I buy from them? Well that is a story for a later date.

 

[robertawillisjr]

I am in the process of watching Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" DVD and he just contradicted everything I said above. "Two subs are better than one". Two good subs are better that one excellent sub.

I am in the process of watching the first DVD, plenty of verbal advice but no visual examples.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
As for Surrounds, something like the Aerius or Aeon would do quite nicely. I cannot tell you how much better I have found having ESL Surrounds. I am using Vantages, Stage, Vista, Descent i, and Depth in my HT and it is amazing. For a short time, I was using Martin Logan Montages which are a non Electrostatic Model from a few years back. The change to Vistas made a huge difference in respect to Surround Steering. For a Subwoofer, the Grotto, Depth or Descent would all be excellent. I am not huge on the Dynamo and Abyss. At that price, I would go with a Hsu Research VTF-2 MKIII.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[JonFo]

@sb6 you are barking up the wrong tree here. RUR sure knows his stuff and all his recommendations are absolutely spot on and come from extensive study and experience.

 

[RUR]

@sb6 you are barking up the wrong tree here. RUR sure knows his stuff and all his recommendations are absolutely spot on and come from extensive study and experience.

Howdy, Jonathan! Slightly OT as it encompasses more than bass, but are you following this? http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/657442-possible-interest-white-paper.html

 

[Lightloopy]

I home auditioned a used Fathom F113 from my local dealer. I have SL3's(re paneled) and I think it made a significant difference for me. Sure , it can shake the roof off, but I believe it works in a subtle way. I used the ARO but other than that do not have the technical expertise or equipment to measure and analyze. Room treatments are per recommendations from a Rives consult when I first built the room. Otherwise it's placement and panel controls. It also probably stayed because I did not want to move it again!
I also appreciated all the helpful information from the members here. Goos luck!