Well, my BF 210 has a big problem and I purchased it new in July 2021. Here is what it is doing.

[Robert D]

Shame you bought a second sub that wasnt ML. With respect, poor choice in my opinion. You cant beat ML for service or sound

Well, the service from Martin Logan is very good indeed and I like dealing with Ron and Shawn. The company that I bought the sub from is really small, much smaller than Martin Logan, and I think their service will be as good. When I called them I actually spoke to the owner of the buisiness and their warranty is 5 years along with a similar policy to Martin Logan's. They have quite a reputation over at the AVS Forum. I think the two subs together will work very well. Both subs are sealed and should complement each other as long as I am able to coordinate them. If I want to upgrade from my Prodigies in the future, I will surely buy more Martin Logans.
Soon I will be able to compare the performance of the two subs and see which I like better. The Balanced Force 210 is a great sounding sub and I still recommend it even though mine broke down.

 

[user 49612]

Well, the service from Martin Logan is very good indeed and I like dealing with Ron and Shawn. The company that I bought the sub from is really small, much smaller than Martin Logan, and I think their service will be as good. When I called them I actually spoke to the owner of the buisiness and their warranty is 5 years along with a similar policy to Martin Logan's. They have quite a reputation over at the AVS Forum. I think the two subs together will work very well. Both subs are sealed and should complement each other as long as I am able to coordinate them. If I want to upgrade from my Prodigies in the future, I will surely buy more Martin Logans.
Soon I will be able to compare the performance of the two subs and see which I like better. The Balanced Force 210 is a great sounding sub and I still recommend it even though mine broke down.

Personality difference but if I actually liked dealing with Ron and Shawn (as in if I was in your shoes) I’d show it by buying more. Imagine how they would both feel to know they have you a super deal, helped you out and are replacing your sub and you are currently ordering another sub from someone else. It’s a kick in the face.

That may have come off harsh and it’s not! I’m just talking here, and not picking on you. But loyalty like that is big to me. It’s why I only buy the equipment my one dealer sells and why ALL my speakers are ML.

To my ears there is no Rel, JL or anything else that touches an ML BF. If you like the empire strikes back, imagine it with a 212. And generally those on the AVSforum have no taste. Not that the sub is going to be bad! But generally it’s money over SQ. And they are never going to admit you actually do have to spend more for audiophile grade.

Anyway, all the best man and let us know what you think about your new sub!

 

[Robert D]

Personality difference but if I actually liked dealing with Ron and Shawn (as in if I was in your shoes) I’d show it by buying more. Imagine how they would both feel to know they have you a super deal, helped you out and are replacing your sub and you are currently ordering another sub from someone else. It’s a kick in the face.

That may have come off harsh and it’s not! I’m just talking here, and not picking on you. But loyalty like that is big to me. It’s why I only buy the equipment my one dealer sells and why ALL my speakers are ML.

To my ears there is no Rel, JL or anything else that touches an ML BF. If you like the empire strikes back, imagine it with a 212. And generally those on the AVSforum have no taste. Not that the sub is going to be bad! But generally it’s money over SQ. And they are never going to admit you actually do have to spend more for audiophile grade.

Anyway, all the best man and let us know what you think about your new sub!

Yeah, I will be able to compare the performance of the two subs, and the Power Sound Audio sub has a 60 day home trial period. If I'm unhappy with it then I will return it and buy another BF 210.

 

[Rich]

Shame you bought a second sub that wasnt ML. With respect, poor choice in my opinion. You cant beat ML for service or sound

You need to step out of your bubble. ML is a speaker company that happens to make some decent, but overpriced subs. They are far from the end-all be-all. There are more than a few companies that specialize in subs that trump ML in that category on both sound and service, but most especially on price. PSA is one of those companies. I expect Robert is going to be very happy with his purchase once he gets it set up and properly integrated into his system.

 

[Rich]

To my ears there is no Rel, JL or anything else that touches an ML BF. If you like the empire strikes back, imagine it with a 212. And generally those on the AVSforum have no taste. Not that the sub is going to be bad! But generally it’s money over SQ. And they are never going to admit you actually do have to spend more for audiophile grade.

Let’s talk facts…
The BF212 costs $4,500 and has two 12” drivers powered by 1700 watts (3,400 peak) and puts out 18-120 kHz. The PSA S2112m costs $2,200 and has one 21” driver powered by 1920 watts (4,300 peak) and puts out 11-200 Hz., with in-room extension into the single digits. You could get two of them for the price of the ML. And don’t pretend they don’t sound as good. PSA uses the Italian-made B&C pro driver that is lightning fast and their subwoofer designs sound excellent for both music and movies.

Martin Logan is coasting on their brand name and over-charging for what are really pretty average under-powered subs. They may be fine for music, but are pretty underwhelming for serious home theater compared to the competition, especially considering the price.

 

[Fidji99]

You need to step out of your bubble. ML is a speaker company that happens to make some decent, but overpriced subs. They are far from the end-all be-all. There are more than a few companies that specialize in subs that trump ML in that category on both sound and service, but most especially on price. PSA is one of those companies. I expect Robert is going to be very happy with his purchase once he gets it set up and properly integrated into his system.

Anyway, once you clear basic performance thresholds for a sub, it is all about positioning, room acoustics and DRC implementation. Even more so with multi subs.

we do not get PSA, HSU or Rhytmiks here in Europe. There are some companies that make subs - Ascendo is considered high-end.

ML Dynamos, if you can get them on a good deal, are OK value for money. Not performance monsters, but very compact, room friendly and competent 15in.

 

[Rich]

Anyway, once you clear basic performance thresholds for a sub, it is all about positioning, room acoustics and DRC implementation. Even more so with multi subs.

Exactly! Which is why I got a chuckle out of TiBoneFramer’s comment above about needing to pay more for “audiophile grade” subs. Talk about falling for marketing hype! Subs are all about the performance characteristics of the driver, amp, and cabinet and the expertise of the designer in combining those elements appropriately. ML has no particular expertise in that area and no special magic audiophile sauce that makes their subs stand out. In truth, their performance as a sub pales in comparison to models costing half as much, as I showed above with my comparison between the BF212 and the PSA S2112.

Beyond that, as you say, it’s all about positioning, room acoustics, and DRC implementation. Which probably all have a larger impact on the ultimate sound quality of the sub.

 

[ttocs]

I think there's an aspect of ML BF series subs that's gotten lost here.

BF series subs, like the powered Masterpiece series speaker woofers, use a tech that simply cannot compare to single driver subs because it's not a fair fight, the BF series wins. Balanced Force with ARC is a really cool tech that attempts to diminish the BAD so more of the GOOD can remain. Sorry for the technical jargon.

So I can accept a same for same comparison, but I don't offhand know what the comparable BF type of competing sub is out there. I know it's not the great Rel 212/SX because that uses two same facing drivers and two passive radiators, and no DSP is involved to time any of them that's tunable by the user. So while it's a great subwoofer, it doesn't do what BF subs do. Can't compare.

I've been able to make lemonade with my setup using Dynamo subs, really good lemonade. But my Dynamo subs can't compare to BF subs. They just can't because the Dynamo subs, which have ARC, don't have a second woofer that works to diminish the cancellations that would otherwise be exhibited at the MLP.

Balanced Force makes it easy to get good results. I contend that the same results can be had using other subwoofer combinations, but with more effort involved by the user.

Heck, just look at the Wilson Subsonic subwoofer, it's just drivers in a box with no amp. Drivers in a box that weighs 505 pounds. So you need an amp to make the thing make sound, and using the Wilson controller you get some adjustments. This does not make bad room conditions go away, it still needs help. But don't be easily fooled by this simple explanation because the spacing of the drivers is something to consider with this subwoofer. I point this out because there are so many things to consider with how sound is propagated from single and multiple drivers.

Like most anything of consequence, it all comes down to how it's implemented.

 

[Leporello]

Im almost certain that the power supply is built into the amp board. Just about everything is in there really. I replaced that and the problem still occured.

Is the AC power connector on the amp board?

 

[Leporello]

It may have been in the control board, the board on top of the speaker. I talked with Ron today, and after i tried to replace the control board and ran into some trouble, he was great about things and said they are just going to send me a new unit. So that goes out tomorrow. After I get that and verify that its working correctly, they will have a shipping company come and pick up the old one at my home.

Martin Logan was very good about the whole thing. Shawn at Da Vinci Media has been there helping me out too. Hopefully this new subwoofer is problem free for a long time.

So you're getting a whole new subwoofer out of the deal? Excellent! That's a level of customer service that is rapidly disappearing.

The down side is that those of us on this forum who are curious about what the actual problem was can now only speculate. But the up side completely swamps it, especially for Robert D., but for all of us, knowing that some of the products we love are so well supported after market.

 

[Leporello]

Exactly! Which is why I got a chuckle out of TiBoneFramer’s comment above about needing to pay more for “audiophile grade” subs. Talk about falling for marketing hype! Subs are all about the performance characteristics of the driver, amp, and cabinet and the expertise of the designer in combining those elements appropriately. ML has no particular expertise in that area and no special magic audiophile sauce that makes their subs stand out. In truth, their performance as a sub pales in comparison to models costing half as much, as I showed above with my comparison between the BF212 and the PSA S2112.

Beyond that, as you say, it’s all about positioning, room acoustics, and DRC implementation. Which probably all have a larger impact on the ultimate sound quality of the sub."

"Audiophile grade" is clearly lazy thinking--not approved by TAS or Stereophile. But there's a lot of science and art that goes into implementing a sub that integrates well with the main speakers and the room. A lot of home theater enthusiasts seem only to care about how deep and how loud they will play, and that's fine if that's what you're into. My goal is to reproduce as accurately as possible the sound in the concert hall or church where the original recording was made, and that requires an "audiophile grade" sub, properly set up.

 

[Robert D]

Is the AC power connector on the amp board?

Yes.

 

[Robert D]

So you're getting a whole new subwoofer out of the deal? Excellent! That's a level of customer service that is rapidly disappearing.

The down side is that those of us on this forum who are curious about what the actual problem was can now only speculate. But the up side completely swamps it, especially for Robert D., but for all of us, knowing that some of the products we love are so well supported after market.

Yes, Ron and Martin Logan have always stood behind their warranty. I had a minor problem with a Focus center channel right out of the box and they sent me a another new one ASAP.

 

[Robert D]

"Audiophile grade" is clearly lazy thinking--not approved by TAS or Stereophile. But there's a lot of science and art that goes into implementing a sub that integrates well with the main speakers and the room. A lot of home theater enthusiasts seem only to care about how deep and how loud they will play, and that's fine if that's what you're into. My goal is to reproduce as accurately as possible the sound in the concert hall or church where the original recording was made, and that requires an "audiophile grade" sub, properly set up.

In another 5 weeks or so I will have the new PSA subwoofer and can report back about how I feel that it sounds. I can compare directly to the BF 210 in my room.

 

[Fidji99]

Personality difference but if I actually liked dealing with Ron and Shawn (as in if I was in your shoes) I’d show it by buying more. Imagine how they would both feel to know they have you a super deal, helped you out and are replacing your sub and you are currently ordering another sub from someone else. It’s a kick in the face.

While their service is commendable, I see it more as a prerequisite to even consider to buy anything in the future.

I think there's an aspect of ML BF series subs that's gotten lost here.

BF series subs, like the powered Masterpiece series speaker woofers, use a tech that simply cannot compare to single driver subs because it's not a fair fight, the BL series wins. Balanced Force with ARC is a really cool tech that attempts to diminish the BAD so more of the GOOD can remain. Sorry for the technical jargon.

So I can accept a same for same comparison, but I don't offhand know what the comparable BF type of competing sub is out there. I know it's not the great Rel 212/SX because that uses two same facing drivers and two passive radiators, and no DSP is involved to time any of them that's tunable by the user. So while it's a great subwoofer, it doesn't do what BF subs do. Can't compare.

I've been able to make lemonade with my setup using Dynamo subs, really good lemonade. But my Dynamo subs can't compare to BF subs. They just can't because the Dynamo subs, which have ARC, don't have a second woofer that works to diminish the cancellations that would otherwise be exhibited at the MLP.

Balanced Force makes it easy to get good results. I contend that the same results can be had using other subwoofer combinations, but with more effort involved by the user.

Heck, just look at the Wilson Subsonic subwoofer, it's just drivers in a box with no amp. Drivers in a box that weighs 505 pounds. So you need an amp to make the thing make sound, and using the Wilson controller you get some adjustments. This does not make bad room conditions go away, it still needs help. But don't be easily fooled by this simple explanation because the spacing of the drivers is something to consider with this subwoofer. I point this out because there are so many things to consider with how sound is propagated from single and multiple drivers.

Like most anything of consequence, it all comes down to how it's implemented.

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/G25HP_specs.html
if you believe you need dipole subwoofer, here is the one for you, with servo driver. Actually dipole is not that much about room, but about enclosure movements cancellation. As 2 woofers in case of BF work in unison, they will act as 2 stacked subs, significantly boosting the output: 6dB vs 3db output increase of 2 non-stacked subs (e.g. 2 Dynamos) [I have come across this topic, as Trinnov has special option to handle stacked subs)

Actually subs stacked on top of each show better results, compared to 2 woofers next to each other. Your stacked 1100x are great solution.

there is also this school of thought What is a Cardioid Subwoofer? Why Do I Need One? - inSync

but I do not think BF is able to steer delay/phase of each woofer independently.

 

[ttocs]

While their service is commendable, I see it more as a prerequisite to even consider to buy anything in the future.

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/G25HP_specs.html
if you believe you need dipole subwoofer, here is the one for you, with servo driver. Actually dipole is not that much about room, but about enclosure movements cancellation. As 2 woofers in case of BF work in unison, they will act as 2 stacked subs, significantly boosting the output: 6dB vs 3db output increase of 2 non-stacked subs (e.g. 2 Dynamos) [I have come across this topic, as Trinnov has special option to handle stacked subs)

Actually subs stacked on top of each show better results, compared to 2 woofers next to each other. Your stacked 1100x are great solution.

there is also this school of thought What is a Cardioid Subwoofer? Why Do I Need One? - inSync

but I do not think BF is able to steer delay/phase of each woofer independently.

I like Rythmik subs a lot! I tried to order a couple but was having difficulty in finding out when the model Rythmik recommended that I buy would be available, and what it would cost. After a couple weeks of emails and phone calls I gave up and bought my first Dynamo subs.

But there's still some things that the Rythmik G25HP doesn't have, and that's ARC and ability to be controlled via an app. Rythmik has great offerings and I'm a big fan of servo subwoofers. And if it weren't for the lack of pricing info and the ability to order I'd be a Rythmik subwoofer guy.

Regarding the cardioid sub, I've read a lot about subwoofer setups for venues and the detailed info about how to setup for various patterns. Some patterns "can" translate down to small rooms like we have in normal residential spaces, but you need to be able to scale down everything involved and still have the proper distance from sub to wall to seating to have an effect. There's one setup I find intriguing at the moment because it seems to work well, and that's a horizontal array across the front wall. I'm experimenting with this now. I'll have more to say about it in the next few weeks. All I know so far is, 4 subs spaced apart works better and easier than with two groupings of 3 subs each tightly together with a central space or 20 inches between the two groups, which I suspect causes comb filtering and lobing of the two groupings and so must be treated like two virtual subs because of the propagation pattern with the space (void) in the middle. The space is because I want to put my main amp in that spot. So with 4 subs, spread out over about 10 feet, spaced equidistant, seems to be working well for diminishing the seat to seat variation prior to any correction being applied. This is my attempt at using BeamForming, which is supposed to be able to work well in small rooms.

And no, BF is not able to steer anything, so it's ARC that makes most ML subs different from most other subs. I don't know why ML hasn't offered their subs with the same capability as the PoweredForce Forward woofers in most of the Masterpiece speakers.

 

[Fidji99]

@ttocs look for Plane Wave Bass Array (PWBA) from Neumann. Even spacing of approx 70cm is required.

 

[Robert D]

I like Rythmik subs a lot! I tried to order a couple but was having difficulty in finding out when the model Rythmik recommended that I buy would be available, and what it would cost. After a couple weeks of emails and phone calls I gave up and bought my first Dynamo subs.

But there's still some things that the Rythmik G25HP doesn't have, and that's ARC and ability to be controlled via an app. Rythmik has great offerings and I'm a big fan of servo subwoofers. And if it weren't for the lack of pricing info and the ability to order I'd be a Rythmik subwoofer guy.

Regarding the cardioid sub, I've read a lot about subwoofer setups for venues and the detailed info about how to setup for various patterns. Some patterns "can" translate down to small rooms like we have in normal residential spaces, but you need to be able to scale down everything involved and still have the proper distance from sub to wall to seating to have an effect. There's one setup I find intriguing at the moment because it seems to work well, and that's a horizontal array across the front wall. I'm experimenting with this now. I'll have more to say about it in the next few weeks. All I know so far is, 4 subs spaced apart works better and easier than with two groupings of 3 subs each tightly together with a central space or 20 inches between the two groups, which I suspect causes comb filtering and lobing of the two groupings and so must be treated like two virtual subs because of the propagation pattern with the space (void) in the middle. The space is because I want to put my main amp in that spot. So with 4 subs, spread out over about 10 feet, spaced equidistant, seems to be working well for diminishing the seat to seat variation prior to any correction being applied. This is my attempt at using BeamForming, which is supposed to be able to work well in small rooms.

And no, BF is not able to steer anything, so it's ARC that makes most ML subs different from most other subs. I don't know why ML hasn't offered their subs with the same capability as the PoweredForce Forward woofers in most of the Masterpiece speakers.

I noticed that running my BF 210 with ARC turned on vs off sounds just about the same. I guess it sounds slightly better with it on, but to be honest Im not sure if thats just placebo. Thats how it is in my room at least. So I dont know how much cost that feature adds, but in my room its not money well spent because it doesnt really sound any better to me. Its so easy to turn it on and off by pushing that button on top of the sub, so that makes it easy to test.

 

[Robert D]

@ttocs look for Plane Wave Bass Array (PWBA) from Neumann. Even spacing of approx 70cm is required.

Wow, thats less than 1 meter apart, Thats a lot of subs.

 

[ttocs]

I noticed that running my BF 210 with ARC turned on vs off sounds just about the same. I guess it sounds slightly better with it on, but to be honest Im not sure if thats just placebo. Thats how it is in my room at least. So I dont know how much cost that feature adds, but in my room its not money well spent because it doesnt really sound any better to me. Its so easy to turn it on and off by pushing that button on top of the sub, so that makes it easy to test.

ARC has quite a few settings to tailor how it alters the output. Default settings can often be improved upon. It just takes some trials to work through how each setting can alter the output as-measured by REW. I've had ARC and REW open concurrently and have made adjustments, then quickly measured the result with REW, and then made more adjustments, etc, etc, etc. Of course, every room and sub placement will react differently as far as the starting point is concerned, so how much adjustment is possible can largely be dependent upon these variables.

I've only encountered one type of grouping with my subs that had a better result with the sub in one spot needing ARC to be turned off to get a better result with Dirac. But in all other instances I found ARC to be beneficial, so far. And when I say beneficial, I mean the entire sequence of the chain from placement to running ARC to grouping to how the group is aligned (with or without PEQ in the miniDSP) and finally to using Dirac as the final EQing step.

ARC:On/Off and miniDSP:EQ:On/Off when using room correction such as Dirac are options that one can decide to try if one has the time and desire.