Vibration Control - Racks, stand, vibrapods, surfaces, etc.

[David Matz]

Has anyone here experimented with different surfaces (maple vs. stone vs other woods), swapped out equipment stands/ racks, or auditioned various vibration control gadgets? What were the differences in sound?

What material is your audio rack made out of? What was the old rack made out of?

My understanding is that wood surfaces add a warmer sound.

I use Ayre wood blocks and they help out some with imaging on the source and preamp, but add virtually no value with the amps. Not sure if this is definitive or due to my wood rack.

Here's a quote from Stereophile about the Finie Elemente products:

“The Ceraball, Cerapuc, and Cerabase equipment feet are another story. They made components sound a lot better. They are expensive, but excellent values in terms of improvement per dollar. Fully equipping my reference system cost about $2200, but the improvement - to about $100,000 worth of gear - was HUGE! And after I’d heard my system with the [Finite Elemente] feet in place, there was no going back!”


As a general rule, the better/ more resolving the system, the more one can tell the difference. So someone running a $19.99 cd player with their Logans would probably not have the same opinion as the guy running a $3K+ turntable with their Summits or Vantages.

Please share your observations and please share your system components so that the responses can be properly calibrated.

Thanks

 

[twich54]

David, I like wood (tt use), Equipment rack/stand legs are sand and lead shot filled. See system attachment for further pics / discription.

Also, FWIW, Hockey Pucks make great isolation feet in certian applications so I'm told and they are cheap !!

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Isolation for the TT not TOTO

Right now my TT is spiked to a glass table which in turn is spiked to the floor. I will be isolating this system further incorporating a 4 inch thick Redwood Slab I have been honing for just this purpose. My thought is the softness of the Redwood will take part in damping (sp) we will see. I will be posting a new pic soon.

Love this thread David,
Doug - out

 

[Jeff Zaret]

David,

I think there is benefit in doing some type of isolation. Yes it does depend on the system and how "subtle" the changes are perceived.

Although this is not as volatile a subject as cables I believe there is merit to isolation. I have used products from Herbie's Audio Lab and they have all performed very well and do not break the bank. Here is a direct link to the "footers" he has but he also has other products that are also well thought of.

http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/footers.htm

Good Luck

Jeff

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Herbiesaudiolab

Ok,
This site looks great. You are right about not breaking the bank, yet offering a seemingly rather high level of sophistication in their product. I will more than likely be ordering a mat (need to decide what would work with the Clearaudio) and some isolation pods / feet. The wealth of knowledge on this forum boggles the mind. I hope to participate for years to come.:bowdown:

Doug - out

 

[Bernard]

I was forced to use a Target wall-mount rack for my TT as I have a wood floor, and it was prone to footfalls; I get great isolation now. I used to have my CD transport and DAC sitting on a wooden cabinet, then once tried them on the TT shelf when I had moved the TT for some reason. I was amazed at how much better CDs sounded, so out went the equipment cabinet, and I bought some metal stands with 1" MDF shelves instead; a definite improvement. Subsequently I found out that lightweight pressed wood shelves sounded even better.

Some equipment manufacturers do not recommend glass shelves with their products.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Many options

Hi Dave,

IMHO, controlling all vibrations is essential to optimizing your system's performance. Look in the Music Direct, Acoustic Sounds, and Audio Advisor catalogues for a "sample" of what's available. It's almost as bad as shopping for toothpaste or shampoo. Too many choices but well worth it once you find the device(s) you like.

For me, I've used Mapleshades Brass Cones extensively. I use BDR pucks under my Summits. I also tried another product (can't recall the name at the moment) that is also effective although I liked this one under my CDP and Magnum tuner and not my CJ preamp. Go figure.

Assuming your system is of sufficient articulation and transparency, you will clearly hear the effect of any given product and you should judge their particualr effectiveness by its positive or negative sonic impact.

I believe the best way to go, regarding vibration footers in particular, is to buy and audition from the above named three catalogues. The nice thing is that all are reputable and all offer a 30 day money back gaurantee.

Some may feel that this falls into the minor tweak catagory. I respectfully disagree. The aggregate effect of controlling vibration for all hardware in your system is very substantive and well worthwhile.

Oh yes, and then there's the option of placing various weights on top of your equipment but that's a whole other story.

GG

 

[slowGEEZR]

David,

I read about an isolation tweak for my Scout turntable a year or so ago. Bed, Bath and Beyond or Linen and Things sells a two inch thick heavy cutting board that the Scout will just fit on. It seems to work good.

 

[DTB300]

Although this is not as volatile a subject as cables I believe there is merit to isolation. I have used products from Herbie's Audio Lab and they have all performed very well and do not break the bank. Here is a direct link to the "footers" he has but he also has other products that are also well thought of.

+1 for Herbie's. Great people to deal with, excellent products at excellent prices.

I use the Black Hole for CD's, some of the footers, and their Tube Dampeners.

 

[Dreamer]

My main amps are sitting on 12" x 24" x 1.5" cast concrete pavers, which are spiked to the floor with 2.15" OregonDV cones. The amps sit on ceramic Isopod cones (they used to be made in Canada, and I have 3 sets--one each for my main amps and one set under my preamp...) These pavers weign about 25# each...

The shelves of my rack are actually a big build-in entertainment center. They are MDF, and the support rails are glued and screwed into the walls. On top of each shelf, I've placed a 12" x12" marble tile, and my various componenets sit on them, using several different types of footers.

My Prell preamp sits on a set of ceramic Isopods. )These Isopods are the best ceramic footers I've ever found--better than Goldmunds, better than anything made from metal, just AMAZING. I lament the day they went out of business in the mid 1990s. And apparently other people agree with me, because I have NEVER, in the last 10 years, seen a single set for sale used on EBAY or Audiogon...)

The Oppo sits on a small trio of Russ Andrews ceramic cones (which were hollow when I bought them, but I've since filled with a mixture of epoxy, shredded foam and lead shot).

The Benchmark DAC is sitting on a set of 2" sorbothane-topped "AV Rizers" (made by a guy on the Carver Forum).

The Sony BluRay player is sitting on a set of three big (3" high) hollow glass cones. I don't know what they were originally designed for--I found them in a second-hand shop in PA last summer, and thought they would make excellent footers for some future component...

My speakers all sit on OregonDV 1.5" spikes, except for the Velodyne sub, which is currently sitting on some 2" high rubber isolation pucks. (These pucks were FREE, and I have about 8 sets of them. They were originally used for mounting under heat pumps in an apartment where I lived, but they mounted them on wood blocks for whatever reason, and I got the contractor to save them for me when he installed new ones...) I'll eventually use OregonDV 2.15 spikes under the sub.

My main speaker cables are sitting atop large ceramic telegraph insulators, acting as "cable lifters".

My turntable sits on a specially-built rack. The top shelf is a 1" thick 28" square flagstone which is decoupled from the shelf with a set of 3 soft lacross balls sitting in iron 1.5" flange fittings. My turntable is sitting on the flagstone atop 3 vintage ModSquad Tiptoes and cups.

But then again, I'm an inveterate tweeker, and all these configurations are subject to change...

--Richard

 

[music again]

Maple stands for the Summits

IMHO, controlling all vibrations is essential to optimizing your system's performance. GG

Gordon,

I finally received my "new" (code word for fixed) Summits last Wednesday. I have a brand new Sanders Sound Systems 2 channel amp, as well as a Cary SLP-03 pre amp. Kimber Kable Hero XLR's from the power amp to the pre amp and RCA's to the Oppo, which is the only thing "old" in the system. I've only got about 30 hours on the entire system! Needless to say I have a ways to go before I do any "critical" listening.

I did, just for fun, try out a couple of 1" thick circular marble table top slabs under the Summits. Even though they are both 1" thick, one is larger than the other, so this is not scientific. The sound is OK, but I think I am not getting the solid base I should be getting and the sound is not as lively as I recall. This could be due to needing more break in time, but I KNOW I am getting way too much vibration, because I can put my hand on the slab and feel it. I may have a source for some two inch 18 x 24 granite slabs, which may work better. I want to try maple too eventually. I have low to medium pile carpeting, so the slabs are laying directly on the carpet . . . no cones or spikes underneath!

My questions:

1. Is it possible to make this work with either wood or granite while they sit directly on the carpet, or will there be too much vibration?

2. I have Jayson's 2.5" spikes which I will add after the system gets more hours on it. I had cardboard stacks on the back of the "old" speakers, raising them about 1/2" or so, and it really locked the music in. I can't wait to get to that point again. Adding to the first question . . . . how about 2" 18 x 24 wood or granite bases sitting directly on the floor, along with Jayson's spikes sitting on BDR pits? Think this would work any better?

I don't think my wife will go for the spikes going through the carpet to the sub floor. So that's out of the question.

3. These platform come in 2", 3" and 4". Add jayson's spikes and 1.5" high BDR pits and your added 4.5" to 6.5" to the bottom of the Summits! YIKES!
I will eventually have a triple Salamander unit which is about 66" wide. So the speakers would be about 78" apart (to the inside woofer cases), about 36" from the wall, with my ears about 9.5 feet from the front panels. I know it will take time and experimentation to get it right, but . . . how much height can you add the the bottom of the Summits before you start destroying the base and imaging? (I always thought the "height" of the music was a little low at normal height).

Thanks!

Joe

 

[TrumpetDoug]

I can't imagine a situation where you would ever be able notice that the spikes had penetrated the carpet. Has anyone had any experience with this? You could take a spike in a inconspicuous corner and do a test. Just a thought.
Another thing about wooden platforms. It seems that everyone is always so willing to use the ultra hard woods ie. maple. My thought is that a softer yet still attractive wood might do a better job of draining away those unwanted vibes. This is what I am going to try using piece of redwood. Unless anyone here has any strong thoughts that this won't work? I will be using this under a TT stand that I'm working on.

Doug - out

 

[Bernard]

I can't imagine a situation where you would ever be able notice that the spikes had penetrated the carpet. Has anyone had any experience with this?

The holes are under the speaker so I don't see the problem (or the holes). I have moved speakers that were spiked through a thick carpet. After vacuuming the pile settles back and you don't see where the holes were.

 

[Bernard]

1. Is it possible to make this work with either wood or granite while they sit directly on the carpet, or will there be too much vibration?

The speaker would not be as rigid as it would be if spiked directly through to the sub-floor, so there would be movement of the speaker cabinet when playing music, and that is what you do not want.

 

[music again]

Spike holes in carpet

The holes are under the speaker so I don't see the problem (or the holes). I have moved speakers that were spiked through a thick carpet. After vacuuming the pile settles back and you don't see where the holes were.

I used to have a Descent i and used the spikes that came with them. These did not leave much of a hole at all in the carpeting, and I REALLY noticed a difference in sound. There was virtually NO vibration. When I did not use the spikes, stuff was literally vibrating off the shelves on walls!

However I want to use the spikes on the front that come with the Summits and Jason's 2.5" spikes, and THOSE are much thicker than the Descent i spikes. I suppose a test is the best way, but I am sure I would have to cut the carpet somewhat to get Jason's spikes to go through all the way to the floor.

TFA

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Joe,

Like others that have commented, I don't think some "minor" non visible holes should be an issue. But then again, I can't speak for your spouse.

Anyway, two options from my perspective.

One. As others have suggested, "find" the optimum placement for your Summits, using the supplied threaded "disc" footers and then install the spikes. Pierce the carpet / pad so the spikes are securely "seated" to the subfloor.

Two. Certainly more expensive and you may have issues with speaker height versus listener height.

Purchase a Mapleshade speaker "plinth" with MS carpet piercing spikes (or equivalent plinth / spike product), that will securely seat the spikes to the subfloor. Still need to get the speaker position relatively close as described above. Install the Summits on the MS plinth.

Two scenarios with this option.

2A. Spike the speakers directly into the plinth.

2B. Buy the BDR pits indicated at the bottom of my system description (3" diameter - 3/4" high or other equivalent product) and place the spikes on the BDR pits.

Option 2A is "relatively" less expensive than 2B. MS plinths with spikes $500 +/-.

Option 2B, add $850 +/- onto 2A.

A general comment about Option Two. I have wood floors and I believe (from a Spock / logical nerd perspective)) that you will get better bass response from the down firing woofer with a hard surface below versus a soft (carpet) surface. I have no personal knowledge to back up this claim.

Other members may suggest other less expensive options to accomplish the same vibration isolating results. However, I'm confident that you would be very happy with either Option Two iteration on the assumption that the speaker / chair height interface issue is a non issue.

Additional comment on 2B versus 2A. You'll be able to fine tune speaker position, within the plinth footprint limits, without moving the plinth or moving the spikes on the plinth. You simply move the BDR pucks.

If I were you, I'd pursue Option One assuming you can get your spouse to agree.

Yet again, I'm rabid regarding elimination of vibration induced distortions. It's all audible.

Are we having fun yet?

Gordon

 

[jtwrace]

Gordon,

With all this fancy stuff I would think that you don't use the spikes I made for you?

 

[Craig]

I'm still using mine:music:

 

[Rich]

Gordon,

With all this fancy stuff I would think that you don't use the spikes I made for you?

Oh, don't worry Jason. He's using them. The problem Gordon was having was that his hardwood floor had too much vibration, so spiking them directly into it was causing a lot of excess reverberation that was muddying up the bass. So he got the BDR pits to put under the spikes to decouple the speakers from the floor. I think that really helped a lot. I'm still using my spikes too, and am very happy with the results from changing the Summits' tilt to vertical.

 

[Craig]

http://www.vansevers.com/pdffiles/tweaking.pdf

Here's an extensive 51 page paper written by Mike VansEvers on audio tweaking. There is a lot of info on resonances which Mike has done years of research and experimentation on. He's a very interesting person to talk to and has a pretty good ear. He's been over to my house and helped identify some deficiencies with my setup. I knew something was quite right but he was able pinpoint a dark sounding preamp I was using and after later trying something else I found he was right.

He rebuilds vintage amps and some off-the-wall tube amps while buring the midnight oil. He's also a long term member of the Tampa Bay Listening Society and the '08 president. Our TBLS meetings at his place are always interesting.

If anyone knows what sonic effect a species of wood or other material has, it is this guy.