The Thing about Analog is the Analog Thing

[MiTT]

This is a very key point here about "your" source choice let it be vinyl, CD/SACD, or whatever. Your ability to setup your system to benefit your preferred source is key.

I get tired of the people who spend "X" amount of dollars on their preferred source (does not matter if it is vinyl or CD/SACD). tweak this, that, etc. to get the best out of it only to say the other source just does not compare. Yet their other source is just put in and played expecting it to sound as good.

My opinion is you have to decide on your preferred source and make you system sound best for it.

Dan, I'd say yes and no. I agree that we all need to optimise our systems the best we possibly can. Careful attention to component synergy, placement etc. all certainly have an effect.

My point though was that digital, even the most sophisticated digital, is essentially a plug and play event. I find a CD player I like, I buy it, I plug it in and I listen to it. At the very upper tier you might buy a transport, DAC and possibly a master clock or two, but once you bring them home and hook things up the extent of your involvement is opening and closing the drawer and pressing play.

Vinyl requires more set up, more activity associated with playing it and more care in how you even handle the media.

Hey everyone, don't get me wrong at all. I love my vinyl too and think everyone should be aware of just how great it can sound. I'm just saying that if you aren't prepared to go the extra mile it takes to make vinyl sound it's best you probably shouldn't get into vinyl. Likewise, if you haven't taken the time to perform all of the necessary associated functions you also have NOT heard how good it can sound - and it does sound VERY, VERY good.

 

[TomDac]

Ah Tom, that's because he has been made stone deaf by the worst crime in audio history - the 128KBps MP3 file...:devil::devil::devil::devil:

ROFL!! good one.

 

[tonepub]

I'm with Tim all the way on this one....

Digital is pretty easy, you just have to write a big check!

 

[DTB300]

Ah Tom, that's because he has been made stone deaf by the worst crime in audio history - the 128KBps MP3 file...:devil:

He?

Dan, I'd say yes and no. I agree that we all need to optimise our systems the best we possibly can. Careful attention to component synergy, placement etc. all certainly have an effect.

Yes we do agree there.

My point though was that digital, even the most sophisticated digital, is essentially a plug and play event. I find a CD player I like, I buy it, I plug it in and I listen to it. At the very upper tier you might buy a transprt, DAC and possibly a master clock or two, but once you bring them home and hook things up the extent of your involvement is opening and closing the drawer and pressing play.

Okay, I also agree that it is plug and play. But does the amount of involvement make it better or worse? I am not saying you implied that at all, just something for discussion.

Vinyl requires more set up, more activity associated with playing it and more care in how you even handle the media.

I agree.

Hey everyone, don't get me wrong at all. I love my vinyl too and think everyone should be aware of just how great it can sound.

My reply in this thread did not talk about one source being better than another. It is what you like, but it appears some of the replies back seem to think I implied that. So, I will pass on my situation and thoughts.

I no longer have any vinyl source as I sold it many many years ago, but I will also admit it did fit your description of college day care, so it was not worth even using it, so I sold it all. So getting back into vinyl for me would mean buying new source. And places like AS, ED have some very high prices and do the "found a box in the warehouse, buy now while you can" marketing BS. Then miraculously 6 months later they "happen" to find another box

I have taken the time to hear a lot of vinyl setups from cheap to fairly expensive, and each and every time it just does not wow me enough to want to purchase a setup and get some source. Maybe I have not been to the right dealers to hear it? I really do not want to turn this into what is better thread, as it is all personal opinion, I am just passing on what I have found, nothing more.

I'm just saying that if you aren't prepared to go the extra mile it takes to make vinyl sound it's best you probably shouldn't get into vinyl.

I would agree with you. Hopefully people who want to get into vinyl either has a very good dealer to assist them or folks like Mitt, Jeff Z, and Twitch who can help them out with proper setup.

Digital is pretty easy, you just have to write a big check!

On the other side: For digital it is getting ridiculous the price of some of these players out there stating they are the best producing playback. And what is all in these players that would warrant $8k and up price tags? Personally I believe the modded players from Modwright and Vacuum State will give you equivalent sound (possibly better) for 1/3 to 1/4 of the price. And then you can use that for more source, equipment, or a vinyl setup!!!

 

[tonepub]

He?

On the other side: For digital it is getting ridiculous the price of some of these players out there stating they are the best producing playback. And what is all in these players that would warrant $8k and up price tags? Personally I believe the modded players from Modwright and Vacuum State will give you equivalent sound (possibly better) for 1/3 to 1/4 of the price. And then you can use that for more source, equipment, or a vinyl setup!!!

Sorry, the Modwright isn't even close. I used to own one. Can't comment on Vacuum State, other than that he makes a great phono pre.

Where the modders miss the mark is that top shelf digital is a holistic approach, just like analog. It's a system. Just slapping some better caps and a tube output stage into a modestly priced deck will make it sound better, but so much of it is attention to the small details that cost money.

The folks at Naim have sent me pics and I've talked to the various engineers on the product and they've all said the same thing. They haven't pushed the technical boundaries as much as they've paid meticulous attention to every detail in player construction. That's what you are paying a lot of the money for.

But it's trickling down. The Ayre CX-7e is a fantastic player for $3000, certainly the best I've heard at that level.

For my money, I'd much rather have an Ayre CX-7e than a Denon that someones modded. Better resale and Ayre is a great company that's been around for a long time and will continue to support their products.

Also, Ayre makes it a point to make all of their stuff backwards compatible. They've got a new upgrade on the horizon that will be a minimal update charge (and extended warranty) to current CX-7e and CX-5 owners. That's why the resale of Ayre (or other major mfrs. stuff) holds its resale better than the modded gear.

While I used to be a fan of modded stuff back when I was on a tighter budget, the biggest problem is it bites you in the end when you go to resell it or God forbid, you need work on the original hardware. Try and send a Denon back to Denon that has been modded. They won't touch it and Modwright (and the other guys) don't know how to repair it, so now what do you have?

There's no free lunch. I see the heavily modded stuff as a time bomb waiting to go off.

 

[DTB300]

Sorry, the Modwright isn't even close. I used to own one. Can't comment on Vacuum State, other than that he makes a great phono pre.

Isn't it great how subjective this hobby is? Jeff...nice post with comments, preferences and ideas for folks to consider

I have heard the Ayre - 5 & 7, Modwright (Sony) and Vacuum State (Sony) and I liked the sound of the Modwright and Vacuum State better.

There have been many professional reviews where the modded players are compared against much higher cost stock players and stacked up favorably against them. And this has happened more than once for it just to be a single fan-boy review. But if you did not like the Modwright, not a problem for me and I am glad you are honest about it. I like mine and have compared against players costing 2-3 times as much, and while the $9k player I do like, did have an edge over the Modwright, but the $6k+ savings I have in hand is well worth the slightly less performance from it.

Where the modders miss the mark is that top shelf digital is a holistic approach, just like analog. It's a system. Just slapping some better caps and a tube output stage into a modestly priced deck will make it sound better, but so much of it is attention to the small details that cost money.

I agree that "Part Swappers" is really not the way to go. Where Dan and Allan go that step further is new output stages, new clock designs, (yeah they do upgrade some parts), and they remove a TON of stuff in the way of the signal path. And to be fair to Dan Wright I do not believe he just adds tubes to the output path - but since you are Oregon neighbors you probably see each other at the market and can discuss - LOL

The folks at Naim have sent me pics and I've talked to the various engineers on the product and they've all said the same thing. They haven't pushed the technical boundaries as much as they've paid meticulous attention to every detail in player construction. That's what you are paying a lot of the money for.

And I know this is subjective, but is the NAIM that much better for the cost involved here? Some think so, some think not. I am sure glad we have choices available to us. Just like the Continum TT you had the NAIM may not be worth the extra cash to some. Choices, choices, choices

For my money, I'd much rather have an Ayre CX-7e than a Denon that someones modded. Better resale and Ayre is a great company that's been around for a long time and will continue to support their products.

And I would not take a modded Denon either as I like the Sony players better for a modded platform. Ayre has been around and does offer the support of their products, but Dan and Allan also offer great support too. But if something like a mother/daughter board fries and there are no parts available, then one is up poop-creek. But all companies have a point of not fixing things. I guess we ML owners are spoiled with ML and having new panels available, service on your xovers, etc.

After 5 years or so when parts dry up there will be better players available and better options out there for a new player.

I have had Modwright also fix my player for issues I had when I sent it in for some mods. Yeah it cost me, but I would rather pay Dan than deal with Sony.

While I used to be a fan of modded stuff back when I was on a tighter budget, the biggest problem is it bites you in the end when you go to resell it or God forbid, you need work on the original hardware. Try and send a Denon back to Denon that has been modded. They won't touch it and Modwright (and the other guys) don't know how to repair it, so now what do you have?

One has to realize that once you mod a player that you cannot deal with the original manufacturer any more - that is part of the "deal" one has to be aware of.

There's no free lunch. I see the heavily modded stuff as a time bomb waiting to go off.

And I do not see it that way - go figure.

With the changing of technology and how it has changed in the past few years, if I get 3-5 years out of my modded player it is well worth it and a cost savings to me for great performance. Also the money I saved over a comparable stock player enabled me to purchase a lot of source and other components.

 

[taylode]

On the other side: For digital it is getting ridiculous the price of some of these players out there stating they are the best producing playback. And what is all in these players that would warrant $8k and up price tags? Personally I believe the modded players from Modwright and Vacuum State will give you equivalent sound (possibly better) for 1/3 to 1/4 of the price. And then you can use that for more source, equipment, or a vinyl setup!!!

Whew, for a second there I thought you were talking about my new MCD500, but then you capped at $8K + and was safe.

Just poking fun!

 

[User211]

Just poking fun!

"Space - the vinyl frontier. These are the voyages of the MLOC vinyl junkies. To seek out new TTs, arms and carts. To bodly go where no analogue has gone before!" Whoosh! Captain Tim Bingaman, USS MLOC, Vinyl Trek.

 

[taylode]

"Space - the vinyl frontier. These are the voyages of the MLOC vinyl junkies. To seek out new TTs, arms and carts. To bodly go where no analogue has gone before!" Whoosh! Captain Tim Bingaman, USS MLOC, Vinyl Trek.

:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:

 

[DTB300]

Whew, for a second there I thought you were talking about my new MCD500, but then you capped at $8K + and was safe.

Just poking fun!

That's cool with me!!! Go for it!!!!

Glad you love your MCD500 as that is what this hobby is all about. What you love for the price you are willing to pay - independent of what the source may be.

 

[tonepub]

Isn't it great how subjective this hobby is? Jeff...nice post with comments, preferences and ideas for folks to consider

And I know this is subjective, but is the NAIM that much better for the cost involved here? Some think so, some think not. I am sure glad we have choices available to us. Just like the Continum TT you had the NAIM may not be worth the extra cash to some. Choices, choices, choices

The reason the Continuum was not worth the money to me was because I was able to directly compare it to a number of other turntables in the $15-20 thousand dollar price range, with everything else in my system being identical to see where its performance edge was.

When we put it up against the $17k SME 20/2, it was close enough that no one felt the Continuum offered more performance. When we put it up against the 13k Raven Two (with SME iV.Vi arm), the Continuum offered a bigger sound stage and slightly better dynamics. For me it wasn't a 45k diff.
When we compared it to the $25k Spiral Groove SG-2 w/Triplanar, the Continuum was outclassed in 5 out of 6 categories. It still has the best bass definition of any turntable I've yet had the pleasure of hearing.

So while I was ready to write the check for the Continuum after the review, I felt there were about five other 15-20k turntables that offered as much performance.

With the Naim 555, I've had the chance to compare it side by side (again, same cables, same software, etc.etc.) with quite a few players in the $15k category and for me nothings offered up the same level of musicality. That's why I bought it.

And when I find something that goes beyond the Naim (if that happens), it's really no big deal to write about it and describe it in detail, because the 555 is just that, a reference.

While many people would not pay what the 555 costs, no one that has ever heard it has ever come away without saying it wasn't the most analog sounding digital playback they've ever heard.

If I didn't do this for a living, I probably would have stopped at the Meridian 808, it was also a fantastic player. Not quite in the same league as the Naim, but half the price.

Part of what I do is also playing along with the game. If I still had a $4000 CD player, the guys that make 20-80k CD players would not send their product for review. Whether you think the Naim is the "best" player out there or not, it is highly respected by the guys that make the worlds best digital, so it makes it a lot easier to get the top shelf stuff for review.

So what might make sense for me to invest in, doing this for a living would not have made sense if I just listened to my system a few hours a week for my own enjoyment. And I would make different choices for sure.

 

[DrJRapp]

If I didn't do this for a living, I probably would have stopped at the Meridian 808, it was also a fantastic player. Not quite in the same league as the Naim, but half the price.

As an 808 owner, I have a difficult time imagining something that is in a different league. My 808 sounds very analog with my tube pre and SS amps. I don't think the rest of my system could resolve the difference you describe. That is precisely why there is so much difference of opinion on these threads about the differences between components with the same purpose (ie: TTs, CDPs). Everyone here has a different mix of gear with differring synergy.

 

[tonepub]

Very true....

 

[taylode]

Glad you love your MCD500 as that is what this hobby is all about. What you love for the price you are willing to pay - independent of what the source may be.

I fully concur with that. Everyone has their own threshold for value whether its audio, cars, or wine (my three vices). However, I have noticed lately that audio has gobbled up the other two's money. How the heck did that happen? :think:

 

[SundayNiagara]

"Your passive aggressiveness is really quite funny. Comments like this just prove that you haven't heard what good digital or analog really have to offer and you certainly haven't heard the best software. If you had the seat time with this stuff you wouldn't be making the comments you do."

I've done it with an inexpensive ProJect turntable.

I've about had enough of your clueless, obnoxious, condescending remarks.

 

[tonepub]

I stand by my comments.

An inexpensive ProJect is not any big deal. I've had every single one
of their tables.

If that's your idea of great analog, I remain unimpressed. I'm not being condescending at all. I truly think that you don't know what you are talking about.

While I realize that a lot of people are on a budget and I don't feel that there is anything wrong with that at all, I do not think that any kind of analog magic exists at this level.

We review budget and vintage tables all the time to see what's out there at a modest level.

Low budget tables and thrift store records will allow you to spin records and buy some software relatively inexpensively, but it won't give you great analog. I'd pretty much take an iPod, Wadia 170i dock and a 700 dollar Channel Islands DAC over a thousand dollar table, cartridge and phono preamp.

And I've heard more than my share of inexpensive turntables.

Please explain how that is clueless.

You can argue with me and insult me until the cows come home. You won't change my mind. I've spent way too much time with budget analog to be that excited about it. And I'd really like to find a great combination for under a thousand bucks.

 

[SundayNiagara]

"If that's your idea of great analog, I remain unimpressed. I'm not being condescending at all. I truly think that you don't know what you are talking about."

An inexpensive table, such as a ProJect is all it takes to expose digital flaws. Listen to the song I quoted at the point where the viola's come in. That's ALL it takes. The better the analog combo, the wider the gap.

PS: I've worked in the biz and set up my fair share of 'tables.

PPS: i truly think you are a ****!

 

[tonepub]

Think what you want.

I still feel digital and analog are seriously flawed at that level. While the inexpensive project with inexpensive cartridge might sound a bit smoother than a six hundred dollar CD player, the inexpensive CD player will have much better speed control, much better dynamic range and offer a much higher signal to noise ratio....

And so on and so forth all the way up to the 50 thousand dollar range. Both still have their drawbacks as well as their strengths. It depends on which ones annoy you more.

It also depends on the quality of your software. If you don't have great software (digital or analog) it doesn't really matter at all.

So in the end, I still remain unimpressed at your attitude, even more so if you worked in "the biz", whatever that means.

I fail to see who you are helping with this tirade... People are going to do whatever they want regardless of what either of us say.

 

[User211]

It depends on which ones annoy you more.

I find a lot depends on the mood of the moment, too. Sometimes I literally can't listen to CD... and have to swap over to vinyl. Sometimes it's the other way round. It just depends on which attributes annoy me the most at a given time. Sometimes both just sound great with no real preference.

Completely nuts, but absolutely true! It's great to have the choice to be able to do that though, really.

Oh BTW - there's a Naim 555 going on ebay UK. With dollar exchange rates right now, it could be a good deal for someone.

 

[DTB300]

The reason the Continuum was not worth the money to me was because I was able to directly compare it to a number of other turntables in the $15-20 thousand dollar price range, with everything else in my system being identical to see where its performance edge was.

And that is where you have the edge over most of us humble home audiophiles - the option to compare and listen to a wide range of "stuff"

When we put it up against the $17k SME 20/2, it was close enough that no one felt the Continuum offered more performance.

And that is what this hobby is all about. Price, your budget and performance. How much are you willing to pay for performance? And is the extra 10% of performance worth (sometimes) 2-3 times the cost? Only each of us knows for sure. That is where I am at with the Modded players - 90-100% of the performance of players costing 2-3 times the cost - again, like you, in my opinion - and by reviews out there, others too.

With the Naim 555, I've had the chance to compare it side by side (again, same cables, same software, etc.etc.) with quite a few players in the $15k category and for me nothings offered up the same level of musicality. That's why I bought it.

And that I would expect otherwise you just have some Mom & Pop Trust Fund that is eating a hole in your trousers LOL

Part of what I do is also playing along with the game. If I still had a $4000 CD player, the guys that make 20-80k CD players would not send their product for review. Whether you think the Naim is the "best" player out there or not, it is highly respected by the guys that make the worlds best digital, so it makes it a lot easier to get the top shelf stuff for review.

I guess it would be hard to get stuff to review if you reviewed the Oppo and stated what a great player it was and you were keeping it for all your CD/SACD playback. WHEWIE!!!!!

I find a lot depends on the mood of the moment, too. Sometimes I literally can't listen to CD... and have to swap over to vinyl. Sometimes it's the other way round. It just depends on which attributes annoy me the most at a given time. Sometimes both just sound great with no real preference.

Exactly and that goes along with what I stated before. There is no best source, just different and it is dependent on the source media itself. The main trouble is, the better source player/TT we get, the more we can hear the goods and bad of the media. Garbage in - Garbage out.