System #460 (CLX)

[R.I.P]

The CLS are one of a kind speakers. I owned them for over 26 years. I had all the models and ended with the CLSIIz. They love tube amps. Try to get one, you will be in heaven. On the other hand, take some inexpensive construction cement blocks, put a table wood on top of them, to rise your CLS about 10 inches from the floor. Or better, you could make a stand for them, the easy way...not a furniture, unless you want it. You have to experiment the new placement. Also, lay then on their back...in other words, their front feet, unscrew each foot about five turns. Make with the aid of a marker, a little dot on each foot, so you can count the turns. Only at the front. The back foot should be totally screwed. This position will tilt the speaker a little bit to its back. Listen carefully the size of the instruments, and the stage. Also, do not angle them too much inwards. This is good for the old panels. Some members like it, others do not. You can PM if you want and I could answer all your questions regarding them. I missed them a lot.

Hi Roberto,

Thanks very much for your reply. Most tube amps not available where I live. The audio retailer only carries tube amps by Mcintosh and Quad. I would be happy to hear recommendation of tube amp from Mcintosh or Quad at the same or less price level like VTL ST150.

I prefer the sound of the CLS without stands, without back-tilt, and with not much toe-in. I have experimented much with the last 2 variables and also once tried placing the CLS on a stand dimension box.

Thanks very very much for your advice and help.

Have fun my friend!

 

[roberto]

Hi Roberto,

Thanks very much for your reply. Most tube amps not available where I live. The audio retailer only carries tube amps by Mcintosh and Quad. I would be happy to hear recommendation of tube amp from Mcintosh or Quad at the same or less price level like VTL ST150.

I prefer the sound of the CLS without stands, without back-tilt, and with not much toe-in. I have experimented much with the last 2 variables and also once tried placing the CLS on a stand dimension box.

Thanks very very much for your advice and help.

Have fun my friend!

GETTING BACK AT MY ROOTS!

I just acquired an Audio Research VT-100MKIII. I recently had in my system for over 20 years the model VT-100MKII, which I had it modified at the power supply and some signal (coupling) capacitors at both channels. When I got my VTL, I used it in triode mode, giving an outstanding clarity with sound textures that I was not getting with the MKII. Then, a good friend called me, saying that he had a customer who was selling his VT-100MKIII in mint condition, and if I wanted to listen it, he could bring it here. When he came, I forgot the monstrous size of it, and the face plate was black...then I did the change.
I do believe that this power amp is making to my CLXs, to sing along with a characteristics that I am not getting with the VTL. First, was the stage presentation. A little more forward, and a little more wider a the sides. The bass notes are magnificent played, having the musician just there, next to the piano (The shadow of your smile by Cesar Camargo Mariano) and just started to get goose bumps, and listening every musical note. The drummer was just playing almost imperceptible with great detail and crystal cymbals...what an experience! My ears are very accustomed to this sound, but this amp is better than my modified MKII!!!
Then I did play some strings. A wow came out of my mouth!. I just played a Harmony Mundi vinyl recording of Beethoven quartets Dances Allemandes and Minuets, in my Linn Sondek LP-12 with my new cartridge Denon 103R, and I really knew that I was again in trouble. Honestly speaking, my ears are very happy with this Audio Research power amp. At the back of the amplifier, I have two possibilities to hook my CLXs, because there are 4 ohms and 8 ohms speaker connector. I do not have this possibility in the VTL. First l listened in the 4 ohms tab, and a lot of brilliance came out. This does not mean that the VTL is dull...no, the highs are reproduced very nicely. But this kind of metallic sound came out on Pink Floyd album. Then I decided to try the 8 ohm tab...and this is the tab that I am using now. The metallic disappear, and the voices had more impact at the lower range, making to have a very natural balance. The quality of the output transformers in this power amp, makes me think that perhaps this is the clue for driving electrostatic speakers. I had here, the newer models, and I did not liked them. I do not why. They rubs me the wrong way...so, I do not turn on, do you know what I mean, right? They are, like having a beautiful woman with you, but there are no brains, no chemistry, no clicks, just a beautiful lady in front of you...waving her behind and front, but that's all. But, with this unit, I am a very happy owner of the VT-100MK3.
I have being working and changing almost the same changes that I did to my previous MK2, so I am finishing tomorrow for sure. Guys, I really love this amp!!!

 

[Bernard]

Roberto, I'm glad you like your new ARC. I read claims a while ago (obviously wrong, from your report) that the MKII was better than the MKIII. Have you considered ARC's Reference monoblocks (210/250)?

I'm curious: why would you pull out your Linn when the Goldmund is supposedly much better?

Your woman analogy had me chuckling, amigo......you want beauty AND brains?

 

[roberto]

Hola Bro...well, you got me here. I think that when I did try the MK3, was with one channel bad. My dear friend who bought it, is an electronic engineer, and he found an oscillation at the left channel. This oscillation was very high, so, you could not hear it, but was bugging the sound. He fixed it, and he is very happy with it. He called me and told me that my ears were bad, that I should go the doctor for a test. My truth is, that particular unit only last less than a minute in my system. When I listened, I did not like the sound, I also I think that I got a bad influence by a reviewer who did claim about the strong highs and the brightness of the amp. I really thought that was its sound...my mistake.
Remember that I had mono-blocks by Sonic Frontiers. I own the Power 3 mono. Right now are at the studio where I am having a lot of fun. He is a Montis user, and the Sonic Frontiers are singing there beautifully. In my room, I do not have enough space, and because of the heat that they generate, are really too big for me. At the studio, my friend has a Mark Levinson gear, and with these mono-blocks, he is very happy. He claims warmer sound, and more less fatigue. You do know, tubes are tubes...
The Linn is more friendly use. Its sound is very acceptable, and offers a very analogue, well balanced, with good articulation and airy instruments and vocals. Its analogue!. But yes, it misstracks and everything is almost centered image...there good recording like these Beethoven Quartets, that are very enjoyable. I am not going to byte the analogue vs digital...use what you do like. Period!
Where is the beauty? Outside or inside? Its like cars, first, I strong believe that I better have a good working motor, with superb suspension and stability, than a fancy body! The new Audio Research gear, is like a good body car. But something is not working with the motor or the suspension. But the fun that you get with the older gear is in another dimension. Or perhaps, this new gear is to ahead, that I do not understand it. Music if for fun. And better, if you can have the musician(s) playing for you here, in your system and place. I believe that the music is the bridge between Earth and Heaven. And I am having trouble to find this bridge with the new AR products. Again, this is my liking! As I said before, it is a beautiful woman waving her tits and ass, but that's all what you get...nothing more.
Right now, I am listening the MK3...I had changed four capacitors at the input stage, and I think they need some time to break in...I will do the changes little by little...so I can enjoy this jewel more.
Happy listening my dear friend!

 

[MPS]

Great comments about ARC amplifier.
It's kinda interesting that VT100 and VT100mkII are basically almost the same amplifier while VT100mkIII and REF110 are almost similar. Older models are somewhat smoother sounding and newer ones are more straight forward. Did you notice the difference?
I too had VT100, the original version but had power supply capacitors replaced with higher capacitance ones and changed caps in the signal path to Teflon ones.
Now I have VT200mkII which is based on same circuit design as VT100mkIII and more recent REF series. It's truely a magnificent amplifier and good match to neutrality if CLX. Original VT100 suffered somewhat with low impedance loads but this is not the case with VT200mkII, now operating with 4 ohms output taps.
Have you tried different power tubes? Sovtek is a solid choice and I also like TungSol for bit more finesse but less dynamics.

 

[roberto]

Hola Markku. The same power supply is used in the VT-100MK2 and MK3. ( http://www.arcdb.ws/VT100/VT100.html) Look the power supply specs on the three models. Regarding the capacitors, that's what I just did, and also at the input stage signal capacitors.
About the tubes, yes I had too. I did try the Tung-Sol KT-120s, but my liking belongs to the 6550Cs. Svetlana is the one that I am using now. Did try the KT-88EHs by Electro-Harmonixs, and their KT-90s, but I did find them too sweet and narrow at the stage. Don't get me wrong. Sweetness is part of the tube sound, but too much, I get sick.
Yes, I could tell all the difference in sound with tubes. Some differences are not too evident, and mostly are into the dynamics and the size of the stage. Also, with big orchestra, some gives me less crumple up. The one that gave me an average performance is the Svetlana. But this is my liking and could be different than yours. Now the companies are using the KT-150, but I do not tried yet. I think that the amplifier circuit must be designed for the use of the KT-120s. Also the output transformers must be different.
Getting back to my new VT-100ML3 (new for me) with the changes involved with the capacitors and resistors, is coming to sound as I was dreaming of... Happy listening!

 

[MPS]

Yes, power supplies might be quite similar but other half of the sound comes from amplifying stage.
VT100, VT100mkII and VT200 are tube amplifiers and VT100mkIII, REF110 and VT200mkII and all more recent REF series are hybrid. Before ARC was using 6922+6550 in signal path but now it is FET+6H30+6550/KT120/KT150 circuit. To me they have different character of sound. With different tubes you can alter this somwhat but the basic sound remains. So the "old" models and "new" models are different amplifiers soundwise no matter what is the version number on the face plate. Preference is a personal choice naturally.

 

[roberto]

Yes, Markkus, the good thing is, with ML, we can listen easily many little nuances at the sound quality, and other very known and expensive brands, do not. They presents an average of sound, and this is OK. I do envy those who can stand that, because perhaps they are listening things that I am not aware, and might be something good, due to their comments. When I do listen to them, I start to find worse things, like the size of the instruments on certain musical notes, or coloration, lack of neutrality, coherence, etc...that they do not say anything regarding it, and these notes makes a cartoon of the musical instrument...I do not like that at all. Martin Logan is not perfect. The perfection is being at the concert hall, or having the musician(s) playing for you, there in your place. But, we are getting closer each day. We have better way to reproduce the recordings, the quality of the recordings are improving and we are getting the right "timbre" of the musical instruments. The recording engineers are aware about this, but they have to provide a product for commercial value, with a lot of manipulations, compression, dynamics limiters, you name it.
Getting back to ARC, my ears do not like their new stuff. I am trying really to understand why is this!. I rather have your power amp or mine, than theirs. The presentation of the product, the look is outstanding. My hormones work with the look, but when I do listen, I start to not moving my feet along with the music or getting goose bumps, which I do with these models. I know it is me!
Happy listening!

 

[roberto]

This is my actualized system:

 

[roberto]

Updated my system>

Speakers: CLX, Stage X and a pair of Motion
Subwoofer: BF-210 ML.
Preamp: Sonic Frontiers Line 2 for stereo only.
Audio and Video Processor: Integra model DHC 60.7 Audio and Video Processor for 5.1
ClXs power amp: Modified Audio Research VT-100MKIII with KT-120 power tubes.
Stage X power amp: Perreaux 1150B Modified and new capacitors.
Motion 4 Power amp: Acurus Dia-100
Turntables: Linn Sondek LP-12 with Unitrack tonearm with Denon 103-R moving coil. Goldmund Studio with T-3 Tonearm, and Denon 103-R Also have one Oracle Delphy VII MK III
Digital: Mac Mini, with Exasound E-20MKIII DAC
Blue Heaven cables by Nordost, speakers and interconnects.
Power conditioner: Transparent.
Shun Mook Mpingo discs, and Super, Ultra and Original Diamond Resonators by Shun Mook Team.

 

[Brad225]

Very nice Roberto, ARC tubes sure do make ML speakers sing, as you refer to it.

I have listened to CLX's twice at dealers with SS Mac amps and I came away thinking I would not trade my CLS IIz's based on what I was hearing. Sometime I will listen to them with good tubes and maybe change my mind.

Is there anything that you miss about your CLSIIz's with the change to CLX's?

After reading all of you praise of the Shun Mook I am going to check into them and see if they work for me.

 

[roberto]

Hola Brad...I had my CLSs for over 15 years, and did try all ML models and never changed them...until I had the great pleasure to listen the CLXs. These are a totally different beasts. First of all, there is a crossover, for the mids and highs around 360Hz. The bass panels are double pairs and are arrayed in bipolar configuration, the mid and highs panel, is dipolar. The first thing that I did hear was more musicality, and more harmonic texture. The CLSs are thin in this respect, if you do a comparison. They are more easy to set up, and they start to sing nicely right out of their carton boxes. Of course they need some time of break in, and when they are at the optimal point, what you get is better size of the instruments, more air between them and more life like natural overall sound. They are less forgiving, and another thing to point out is the remarkable steady stage with a great sense of 3D. There is more air between the musical instruments and the voices are better in size and timbre. To my liking, a much better product with a superb easy way to drive them. With 20 watts-channel you can make them to sing nicely, a life like unplugged musical instruments.

The new electrostatic panel has the ability to be exposed more by around 40% than the old technology. When they were launched for the first time, was at the Munich Audio Show in 2008. At the end of the Show, there were two finalists, the Grand Utopia JMLabs by Focal, costing $ 180000.00 (one hundred eighty thousand dollars) and the CLXs. For the first time of the Show, the 11 judges unanimously chose the CLXs as the best sound of the show. This means something, don´t you think so?

You should give them a try. Perhaps when you did hear them, they were not set up right, or the music played was not for your mood, or just they did not were doing right the magic...but I assure you, these are that good. The CLSs have their magic too, of course, but you can have more the fun of the musicians with the CLXs.

http://www.tonepublications.com/MAGPDF/TA_019.pdf

http://www.polpak.com.pl/public/files/reviews/Echoice_CLX.pdf

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-martin-logan-clx-speaker

There are more reviews and all are saying the great sound that they have...happy listening!

 

[MPS]

I totally agree with Roberto, CLX is one fine thoroughly thought out product.

I also prefer the way ARC supports and completes the sound of CLX. SS amps will probably give even higher resolution but as always it's the matching of system that counts.

I did like the ARC VT100mkI but ARC VT200mkII does much better job still. It's not only about power reserves but higher capacity output transformers and completely different circuit topology, similar to VT100mkIII and REF110/150.

 

[roberto]

Hola Markkus...you had done a great job with your lovely room.

Once you have the CLXs singing, you are hooked. Each day that I listen to my system its always an experience for good. It amused me in a such way, that I have to play the right music for my personal feelings. I get easy the emotional musician(s) playing their instruments. Even sometimes at a tearful level. And you can play all type of music, no matter what your taste of liking for the music is, you always feel a satisfaction, a happy face, stress is out, new vitality, and I became calm and facing the life with much better attitude... because sometimes we all know that life is difficult. The pleasure that I get, makes me better. Even the wife knows it. When I am in a bad mood, she says to me: Roberto, why don't you go your room and listen to the music? Music makes me a better person, I think. It takes away my bad feelings, and this is why I always say: The bridge that is between Heaven and Earth, its the music. Happy listening!

 

[roberto]

Hola. After having a lot of listening different kinds of audio and video processors, I just got the one that really made a big difference in sound quality here in my system: The new Anthem AVM-60. http://www.anthemav.com/products-current/model=avm-60/page=overview

The quality built, the easy operation, the overall sound quality, the smooth silky quality highs, the liquid mid range and the bass resolution is fantastic! I highly recommend it to you!

 

[R.I.P]

Hola. After having a lot of listening different kinds of audio and video processors, I just got the one that really made a big difference in sound quality here in my system: The new Anthem AVM-60. http://www.anthemav.com/products-current/model=avm-60/page=overview

The quality built, the easy operation, the overall sound quality, the smooth silky quality highs, the liquid mid range and the bass resolution is fantastic! I highly recommend it to you!

What is the experts opinion on the new Anthem MCA 225 power amplifier? Possibly a more powerful version of amplification found in Anthem MRX AV amplifiers ? Roberto do you know?

 

[roberto]

The MCA 225 its a great product too. I have a customer who has it, and he is very happy with his new sound. Its a beast! Heavy and very well built. I did like a lot the smooth sound for every type of music. I love classical, and it did a very good job. The piano harmonics are very detailed, and the voices are projected with the right size without any glare. Its has its own SS sound, but very pleasant. (I´m a vacuum tube person) He is using a Conrad Johnson ET-3 preamp with great results.!

http://www.anthemav.com/products-current/collection=performance/model=mca-225/page=overview

 

[R.I.P]

The MCA 225 its a great product too. I have a customer who has it, and he is very happy with his new sound. Its a beast! Heavy and very well built. I did like a lot the smooth sound for every type of music. I love classical, and it did a very good job. The piano harmonics are very detailed, and the voices are projected with the right size without any glare. Its has its own SS sound, but very pleasant. (I´m a vacuum tube person) He is using a Conrad Johnson ET-3 preamp with great results.!

http://www.anthemav.com/products-current/collection=performance/model=mca-225/page=overview

Many thanks for the informative reply. You are a great guy Roberto!

 

[R.I.P]

Roberto, i am thinking of cleaning dusty records with plans to listen to them.

I know you have a special, hope not secret formula, to clean records.

Wonder if plain warm water sprayed with pressure will do the trick.

Roberto do you know?

Many many thanks for your help in advance.

 

[roberto]

The recipe is: 75% two times distil water. 20% Isopropyl alcohol. 3% soft detergent. 2% Agepon wetting agent or similar. Enjoy Rehan!