System #166 (Sequel II)

[Rabbit house]

Thank you for nice welocome comments !

Welcome, Rabbit !

The size of paradise does not matter, as long as it IS paradise.

It's really great to have a member from Japan here - there's a lot of stuff you've got in Japan that never goes outside your country's borders and it's nice to know we've got somebody to ask questions about it, not to mention times when we really might need quality translation of specifications belonging to some audio product from the past or from the future... I'll ring your bell for sure

Nice welcome comments from Switzerland! I don't know how many Japanese members are there in this club, but I suppose that I'm the only one Japanese who shows the system here.

I've checked your great system. You use B&W speakers,too. I have also B&W 805 Signature speakers in other room.

There are so many difference, for example,culture,language,the structure of the houses,etc.,but I'm very happy to change ideas with you!

 

[Dreamer]

Thanks for explaining th dampers. Although I'm a little hesitant to start sticking things onto the grills of my Sequels, the idea of adding a weight to the top is something I've considered myself. No that you have reported that it helps, I'll definitely give it a try!

I look forward to hearing about your cables!

Thanks,
--Richard C.

 

[Rabbit house]

Home theater

Hi, Richard.
I understand you don't want to stick anything on the panel of your lovely ML.
In my case, my curiousity overcame it. Oh! No! A damon is attracting me to make more strong dampers on the panels !!!

I'm sure that I'll explain about home-made cables this weekend.
Before that, I'll show my room in a theater mode below.

 

[Robin]

Thanks!

Great Star Wars quote!

James,

I have used that quote several times here at the ML Club and I am happy to say you are the very first person to have acknowlegded - I have been using a quote from Star Wars, Darth Vader...

Thank you for noticing...

 

[Pcar928fan]

James,

I have used that quote several times here at the ML Club and I am happy to say you are the very first person to have acknowlegded - I have been using a quote from Star Wars, Darth Vader...

Thank you for noticing...

Well, you have seen the pics of my system and all the Star Wars posters in my living/viewing room! I can't even COUNT the number of times I have watched all those movies! I just love them!:rocker:

 

[Rabbit house]

Why I made cables by myself ?

Please laugh at me as a monomania in a tiny rabbit house!

1. Ordinal audio cables have the structure gathering many small lines.
2. It’s very good for easy bending, but is this really good for good sound ?
3. Why it is bad to use copper solid lines for those ? It is said that using solid lines causes to lose good high frequency sound because there is the skin effect that high frequency electric current tend to move on the surface of the material.
4. In order to get good high one, many makers try to increase the surface area of the line for their cables. So many makers use flat foils for this.
5. But if I adopt flat foils, I have to locate the 2 lines apart in order to avoid to work as a condenser. Then I will not be able to get any electro-magnetic benefit.
6. If I use thin copper tubes, there is the possibility to avoid this.
7. I calculated the skin effects. As the result, the depth of it was about 0.2mm (0.007874 inch) !
8. Are there any such thin tubes in Japan?
9. Finally I found them through internet.
10. Which is better, co-axial or star quad composition?
11. I thought co-axial is better. So I tried to make cables using thin copper tubes.

To be continued. (I’m sorry. Please understand that it takes a long time for me to describe those in English.)

 

[Rabbit house]

Co-axial cable using thin copper tubes

I tried the co-axial cables (Core: Thin copper tube. Outside diameter 1.2mm. Thickness 0.15mm. Outer tube: Thin copper tube. Outside diameter 4.0mm. Thickness 0.2mm. Insulator: Heat　contraction Teflon FEP tube. Thickness 1mm. Shield: Copper foil tape. ) first from SACD player to Preamp. It took about 2 days to finish aging the cable enough. The result was amazing. They had a very flat character having strong low frequency and sensitive high frequency. I was so glad to feel the live and realistic image was there.

So I decided to try to make co-axial SP cables then. (Core: Thin copper tube. Outside diameter 2.0mm. Thickness 0.2mm. Outer tube: Thin copper tube. Outside diameter 5.0mm. Thickness 0.2mm. Insulator: Heat contraction Teflon FEP tube. Thickness 1mm. Shield: Copper foil tape. ) The result was not so good as I expected. The high frequency sound generally became very pungent, and I came not to listen to music easily though the sound was clear. As I expected that the aging time might not be enough, I waited for one week. However, this has not been improved after all. This result made me considerably get depressed.

To be continued.

 

[Rabbit house]

Star quad cable using thin copper tubes

Recovering from the deep depression, I wondered why I failed about SP cables though succeeded about RCA cables for SACD player. I guessed that was because there was a difference about the sectional area between go-tube and return-tube. So I decided to make star quad cables using copper thin tubes, collecting myself, and gathered materials. However, it was noted that the the cost of materials did not rise, and I searched for a cheaper shop this time. As for the insulators, please be aware that I changed from the heat contraction Teflon FEP tube to the Teflon FPA tube in order to reduce the cost.

(The result for star quad cable)
I tried the star quad cables (4 Lines: Thin copper tube. Outside diameter 2mm. Thickness 0.5mm. Insulator: Teflon FPA tube. Thickness 0.5mm. Center stuffing: Cotton yarn. Shield: Copper foil tape. ) first for SP cables. It took about 2 days to finish aging the cable enough. The result was good. But there was not so big change as hand-made cables for the SACD player. As for the SACD player cables, I compared the co-axial and the star quad type, but I couldn’t find out any difference between them. Both are very fine! So finally I adopt the star quad type for all cables with copper tubes thinking about unity.
Star quad RCA cable for SACD player: (4 Lines: Thin copper tube. Outside diameter 1.4mm. Thickness 0.2mm. Insulator: Teflon FPA tube. Thickness 0.5mm. Center stuffing: Cotton yarn. Shield: Copper foil tape. )
Star quad RCA cables between pre-amplifier and main one: (4 Lines: Thin copper tube. Outside diameter 1mm. Thickness 0.2mm. Insulator: Teflon FPA tube. Thickness 0.5mm. Center stuffing: Cotton yarn. Shield: Copper foil tape. )

This is the whole story about copper tubes. Now I enjoy music very much with my original cables and won't change the cables for the time being.
:cheers:
I show the examples of my cables below.
(Star quad RCA cable)
(Failed co-axial SP cable)
(Copper thin tube///OD 2mm,T 0.2mm)
(Copper thin tube///OD 5mm,T 0.2mm)

 

[Beat_Dominator]

That is amazing work! I'm glad that you were able to get some positive results!

 

[Dreamer]

OK, I think I understand. You're using cotton yarn stuffed inside the small copper tubing to keep it from collapsing when you bend it. That would make it a lot easier to work with. But I imagine, since they are pretty rigid, you've got to bend them in pretty smooth arcs to go from one component to the next.

Having cables that were somewhat rigid probably helps keep all your cables neat and tidy, and you probably don't have to wory much about the cables getting tangled up either!

I'd LOVE to see a picture of the BACK of your equipment rack to see how these cables are routed.

My only other question is about the geometr of your "star quad" cables. Are the 4 conductors actually twisted together in a long spiral, or do you just let them go where they may, in the tubing?

Thanks a LOT for that description, and the pictures. It's very innovative work you're doing, and perhaps I'll try something like this myself.

--Richard C.

 

[Rabbit house]

Thank you very much for your usual attention to my threads, Beat Dominator & Richard! I’m sorry, may be, my explanation is not enough. Please allow me to explain a little bit more for your exact understanding.

OK, I think I understand. You're using cotton yarn stuffed inside the small copper tubing to keep it from collapsing when you bend it. That would make it a lot easier to work with. But I imagine, since they are pretty rigid, you've got to bend them in pretty smooth arcs to go from one component to the next.

Having cables that were somewhat rigid probably helps keep all your cables neat and tidy, and you probably don't have to wory much about the cables getting tangled up either!

I'd LOVE to see a picture of the BACK of your equipment rack to see how these cables are routed.........
--Richard C.

I mean that the strong cotton thread is between 4 tubes with each insulator to keep the rectangle shape, not inside the tube. But I think it's a very good idea to put something inside a tube to keep the round shape when bended.
As for bending, you are completely right. (Pls refer to the photo below.)

............
My only other question is about the geometr of your "star quad" cables. Are the 4 conductors actually twisted together in a long spiral, or do you just let them go where they may, in the tubing?

Thanks a LOT for that description, and the pictures. It's very innovative work you're doing, and perhaps I'll try something like this myself.

--Richard C.

There is no twist. There occurs attractive and repelling force between 4 tubes to each other. May be, you can wind up a strong cotton thread round the cable To prevent the vibration by that. (Pls refer to the photo below.)
I sometime do so in order to get clear and tight sound.

4 conductors are actually 4 thin copper tubes. They are not inside the tube. Procedure is as follows;
1. Insert 4 thin copper tubes into 4 insulator tubes.
2. Fix them together with a tape, locating the strong cotton thread in the middle of 4 tubes.
3. Rap them together with heat-shrinking tube.
4. Set the shield tape.
5. Rap them again.

You are welcome! Let's change ideas to each other from now on! :cheers:

Shuji

(Photo) Pls pay attention to the cables behind and on the SACD player.

 

[Rabbit house]

My next topic is power source.

I’ve already described about my cables. I think it’s a very good timing to talk about power source. It looks like many people in the world who love ML belong to this club and discuss about many things. But the power source is different in each country, isn’t it? So I introduce the power source and what audio freaks contrive it in Japan for your reference below. Nowadays, power source is the center field of attention by Japanese audio freaks.

(Power source in Japan)
Electric power from a power plant to a substation: less than AC500,000V triple phase
Electric power from a substation to a transformer on a utility pillar: AC600V triple phase
Electric power from a transformer to a breaker box at several houses: AC200V single phase
Electric power from a breaker to a wall outlet: AC100V single phase

(What do audio freaks contrive the power source for their audio in Japan?)
1. Using good quality power source cables from the wall outlets
2. Using up-down transformer (ex. Using down transformer from AC200V to AC100V getting AC200V from breakers directly in order to reduce the power loss in the cables.)
3. Using power conditioner ( Noise filter type. Inverter type including DC batteries etc.)
4. Changing the in-door power cables from an ordinal type to an audio grade type or to a big conductor type, thinking about the noise reduction and the power loss.
5. Using many kinds of audio grade accessories ( Plugs, Outlet plate, Wall outlet. Outlet box, Breaker ,breaker box Etc.)
6. Grand earth control equipments
7. Using their own utility pillars and transformers for AC600V just for audio system not to be used commonly with their neighbors (They call this with much affection “ My audio utility pillar!!! “. )

(My opinion full of dogmatism and prejudice about the power source)
I thought about each item as follows:

1. Is it strange to use the expensive audio grade power cables for my equipments without thinking about long indoor cables from breakers to wall outlets?
2. It looks OK. But it will cost me much to buy good transformers carefully designed about noise, a buzz and rushing current without any coloration to the sound.
3. It looks expensive for me to buy them for whole my equipments.
4. It looks simple and good.
5. I want to use the minimum amount of those audio grade equipments because they are very expensive for me.
6. I have no idea because I don’t have any experience about those.
7. Perfect, but ummmmmm.

(Remodeling and a result)
I adopted the item No.4 & 5, thinking about simplicity and cost. What I carried out is as follows to be concrete.

* I added another audio breaker box with 6 breakers inside near the breaker box in operation. The breakers made by Japanese maker, Tempearl, were admired in a Japanese audio magazine to be very good for sound, may be, because of their strong springs.
* I adopted 6 lines( Furukawa cable for power line CV8: 8 square-mm(0.0124 in2), polyethylene insulator, with shield). The each cable length was not so long and, thanks to a tiny rabbit house, only 10m(32.81 ft).
* These lines were induced to my equipments directly by audio grade IEN inlet connectors without going by way of any wall outlet to reduce the number of an electric contact. That means each equipment uses each breaker only for its own.
* I used the gilt contact parts to reduce the electric contact resistance for breakers and inlet connectors.
Remark; If you would do like me, please check the laws and regulations in your country.

At first after the installation, the sound was very strange and mysterious because it was very clear without any noise but I could not understand from where the sound came. Can you imagine it?
As time passed, the sound became clearer and clearer amazingly. I’m not sure how long it took to finish aging because I felt it whether it would continue forever. :clap:


Though there are people who insist that good power circuits are inside the good amplifier and they don’t need to care about power source, but how can they explain my experience during the aging time?

I show my added breaker box below. You can see the 6 big cables to my equipments there.

 

[Dreamer]

Your posts are really interesting Rabbit. The mass dampening thread really got me thinking...

So I made these:

http://www.geocities.com/kalligraphos/MassDampers.html

WOW... Who would have thought that 40lbs of strategically-placed cast-iron plate would make such a HUGE difference. Tightened things up like a noose, and the mids and highs are just a lot sweeter too...

Thanks for the inspiration!

--Richard C.

 

[Rabbit house]

I'm very grad.

Your posts are really interesting Rabbit. The mass dampening thread really got me thinking...
...................
Thanks for the inspiration!

--Richard C.

I would be very grad if I could give you any inspiration , Richard.
Don't you think we are listening to the whole vibration in our room?
Now, I'm very interested in room acoustics. Yesterday and the before yesterday, I chenged my room arrangement according to room acoustics. I feel muscular pain in my whole body now.

My next topic will be room acoustics. Probably I would be able to show what I thought and felt about it next weekend. The sound in my room has changed very much.

And I bought an analogue player for beginners. It was about 20 years ago when I listened to records last time. I'm looking forward to listening to music with the player, Pro-ject Debut III, in my room.

Shuji

 

[Rabbit house]

Room acoustics for the rabbit room

After making much effort described before, I wanted to believe that I could get enough good sound. However it was wrong.It is said that the percentage of the sound we listen to directly from our speakers in our room is only 30 to 40%, though the rate would be changeable by the factors of the room, for example, material and structure (wall, floor and ceiling), the size and shape of the room etc. It means that much effort for our room may be so effective as for our equipments. Now I really think that even if I say we hear the sound of the room. That will not be an exaggeration especially in a small room like my rabbit room.

(My room)
Acoustically speaking, it would be very hard to get good soundstage and stereo imaging in a small room if we don’t contrive the room acoustics. I’d like to introduce my room first for your reference.

* Location: 2nd floor
* Size: Length 3645, Width 2720, Height 2430 mm (L 12* W 8.9* H 8 ft)
* Area: 9.9 m2 (107ft2, 11.8yard2)
* Material: Flooring (floor), Gypsum Wall Board (walls and ceiling)
* Location of speakers: Please refer to the picture of my room

(My points to keep in mind when planning)

1. Remodeling my room itself
I don’t remodel my room itself this time.

2. Room acoustics I have to remind
a) Human beings use the frequency between 500 to 3000Hz to judge the direction of a sound. It is said that we judge the direction by the difference of the sound pressure between their ears for the lower frequency than about 1kHz as well as by the time difference (phase) for the higher frequency than about 1kHz.
b) Human beings don’t get any influence from the reflected wave to judge the direction of a sound if the time lag between direct and reflected waves is big or if the level of the reflected wave is weak adequately.
c) The treatment for the first reflection sounds from speakers to a listener via reflectors (walls, a floor and a ceiling) is most important to judge the direction of a sound because those sounds come to a listener from wrong direction and is fairly strong compared to the second reflected sounds.
d) We can regulate the high frequency sound easily, but regulating the low sound is very difficult.
e) The ML speakers radiate unimpeded acoustic energy to both front and rear, they will interact with our room far more than more conventional designs.

3. My experience in a small room
a) Too much absorption disables me to enjoy music because of the lack of high frequency. An absorber tends to absorb more high frequency sound than low frequency.
b) When I regulate ML to stand exact vertically with a leveler, the sound stage appears as a horizontal line in the height of my ears because ML makes cylindrical waves. That makes me feel strange, I can’t enjoy music as a result.

(Plan)

I planned the room acoustic for my room as follows, thinking about those conditions.

a) I use absorbers and diffusers for all of the first reflection waves to a listening position. (From 2.c.)
b) I use diffusers prior to absorbers not to lose high frequency. (From 3.a.)
c) Diffusers should be set near speakers to diffuse effectively and be set where the wide frequency range of sound come from the speakers to keep a good echo. So I planned to locate them just behind the ML panels. (From 2.e.)
d) Those diffusers have the valid frequency range to diffuse. They reflect the remaining waves in invalid range like a mirror. In order for the reflected waves not to affect good soundstage and stereo imaging, the diffusers should have the proper frequency range valid between 500Hz to 3kHz that human beings use to judge the direction of a sound. (From 2.a.)
e) Diffusers should be 2-dimensional ones that can radiate waves equally to any direction. Then, I will be able to prevent strange feelings. (From 3.b.)
f) Absorbers should be selected as they have the enough ability to absorb even low frequency. (From 2.d. & 3.a.)

(Putting my plan into practice)

a) 2D Diffuser
I refereed to the thesis by BBC to make diffuser panels by myself. The panel is divided into 144 elements (12*12). However, I changed the maximum height of the element to suit for the lowest frequency (500Hz). Though the half wave length for 500Hz is about 0.34m, I compromised the element height to 0.28m (607Hz) to use for a small room. The element width is 0.05m (3.4kHz) for the maximum frequency. The material for a diffuser is hard density vinyl chloride foam. As the result of modification, I expect these diffuse the wave from 607Hz to 3.4kHz effectively.

b) Absorber
I refereed to an American website. The absorber is a type composed of a wood flame, surface cloth, glass wool inside and a back peg board. He achieved 13dB reduction (SPL measurement using white noise) about reflected wave using glass wool (Thickness: 0.2m) for his absorber made by himself. So his idea was adopted though the thickness of glass wool was increased to 0.3m.

(Arrangement)

I put my room into the state where I can have excessive echoes by firstly arranging the diffusers because I worried about losing good echo. It was effective to arrange the diffuser close to a speaker from a viewpoint of area angle. After that, I adjusted the echo of my room by arranging the absorbers, listening to many kinds of music.

* Good angles are limited with wide range and beautiful sound from ML panel and as you know ML Panel radiates the sound backward, too. So I tried to arrange the diffusers into such good angles from the panel. As the result, 4 diffuser panels were arranged behind the one ML panel.
* I hung absorbers from the curtain rails beneath the ceiling to change their position. The shape of my room is a rectangular parallelepiped having 6 plains (1 ceiling, 1 floor and 4 walls) as reflectors for 1st. reflection. So theoretically I have to set 6 absorbers for 1 speaker in key "mirror" reflection locations of the room.

I spaced 100mm (4inch) from a wall according to the website. The absorbers were located on the "mirror" reflection point same as diffusers, too.

(Result)

a. The 1st. step (arranging diffuser panels)
Total 8 diffuser panels were located behind 2 ML panels to get good echo. As the result, the acoustic circumstance became drastically alive as if I were in a live house. But I felt tired when I listened to music for long time and couldn’t get enough clear sound stage that satisfied me.

b. The 2nd. Step (arranging absorber panels)
Total 12 absorbers were located mainly in key "mirror" reflection locations of the room. The sound became a little bit dead. But I could get good sound stage and stereo imaging. Further more, it became very quiet without any ambient noise.

c. The 3rd. step (adding reflector panels)
At that time I thought as follows:
* I was satisfied with sound stage, stereo imaging and less ambient noise but not with a little bit dead acoustic sound and less reality.
* I didn’t want to decrease the number of absorbers because absorbers also took a very important role to absorb much energy from speakers in a very small room.
* Maybe, the echo from diffusers to a listener was absorbed on the left and right walls extremely.
* Finally I decided to try to add reflectors made of MDF (10mm) on right and left walls to get more echo from diffusers. They were also hung from the curtain rails beneath the ceiling between the first and the second absorber on the wall. If I explain about the right wall for example, the first absorber is on the key "mirror" reflection point from the right ML panel to a listener, and the second is on that from the left one. That is to say, the position between the first and the second absorber is on the key reflection point from the diffusers behind a left ML panel. I expected the reflectors to increase more echo from the diffusers without losing the good stereo image. Please refer to the photograph below.
The effect of those reflector panels was amazing. I could get good echo back without losing anything.

(Conclusion)

* Locating diffusers behind ML panels made sound drastically lively.
* By arranging diffusers, absorbers and reflectors, I could regulate the acoustic circumstance in a very small room well.
* Using curtain rails was effective to regulate the position of absorbers and reflectors to the key "mirror" reflection locations of the room.

I’m very sorry because it is very difficult to explain the drastic improvement by the room acoustics without letting you listen to music in my room and just with my poor English ability. But I don’t exaggerate the result. Please trust me and remember they say the percentage of the sound we listen to directly from our speakers in our room is only 30 to 40%. I bet it’s more effective to spend our money on room acoustic than on our equipments especially in a small room.

By using dampers for my ML, making audio cables by myself, changing power source and room acoustic, now I can say I am really satisfied with the sound in my room. But my room looks like a sort of laboratory. So I want to try to rearrange the room appearance next so I can be relaxed and enjoy music here like in your nice rooms.

Shuji

From left in the picture below,
(Front absorber)
(Diffusers behind ML atator panel)
(No.1 absorber)...Key reflection point from right ML panel
(Reflector)...Key reflectin point from the diffusers behind the left ML panel
(No.2 absorber)...Key reflection point from left ML panel
(No.3 absorber)

Other absorbers on a ceiling

 

[Beat_Dominator]

Amazing work!

 

[Beat_Dominator]

Oh, and that last post is so well written and long.... you really should make a thread in the "tweaks" section of the forum so that more members will learn from what you have found

 

[Dreamer]

Very interesting work, Rabbit.

I am of the "live room school" of listening room design. I like to start with a room that is very "live", meaning not much acoustic dampening at all, and then ad spot-treatments to take care of the "trouble spots" like corners, side wall reflections, etc. The "Michael Greene Room Tunes" acoustic treatments are some of the best I've found. They are small and visually unobtrusive, and do a LOT to tame bass standing waves, slap-echos, and other "boxy room" problems. And they have the added advantage of having a much higher SAF (Spouse Approval Factor) than the bigger acoustic panels.

I feel that the greatest strength of Martin Logans is their ability to reproduce the open airiness of live recordings, and I feel that the more "live" a room is, the easier it is for MLs to perform at their peak. Personally, I'd rather have too much air (is there such a thing!?!) in the sound of my system, than have it sound muffled, stifled, or somehow constricted, and large panels, in my experience, often do this to a room.

I've worked in radio and done some time in recording studios (as recording engineer AND as a performer) and I always think that those totally damped sound booths in studios sound constrained and muffled. As a musician, it's VERY hard for me to "hit a groove" when I feel acoustically muffled.

Anyway, I'm sure your setup sounds wonderful. I'd like to have the opportunity to listen to your setup, but I doubt I'll ever get to Japan...

And after reading your description, I realized that you do win the prize for smallest listening room--an honor previously held by me! My room is about 12" x 10" x 8"--so I've only got you by about 1 foot in each direction on the floor space.

I'm seriously considering moving up to a 5.1 system, and I just don't know how that's going to work in my tiny space. I received my Center channel today--a pristine ML Logos. It sounds great, and is a nice match to my Sequels. I'm getting a pair of Stylos from a member of this forum, probably going to pick them up later this week--and I just don't know how it's all going to fit. I suppose I need to start looking for the ultimate upgrade now-- a new house!

--Richard

 

[Audioseduction]

Shuji

takusan kakkoii sutereo

kiwotsukete :rocker:

 

[Rabbit house]

Thanks, everybody!

Beat Dominator, thanks for good advise! Sorry for my long description. I'll try "tweaks" section in near future.

Richard, you have very much curiosity like me! Before rearranging my room, I read books about studio construction and room acoustics and also got many hints through internet. You are right. My interest is how I can make my room "live" properly with much reality. I understand a ordinal studio is made
in acoustically muffled. In such studio, musicians would be hard to enjoy recording.

I turned over the No.1 abosorbers. The opposite sides are peg boards. The length between the small holes is about 1.5 inch. So these turned over absorbers would reflect the higher frequancy than 4.5kHz. Now I am describing this post listening to Madonna with much live air. And it was very convenient for me to use curtain rails to hang absorbers and diffusers when regulating room acoustic.

It's very difficult to explain the sound of my room in any language. Maybe, we can exchange the recorded music data from the common CD, using the same recorder and mike to each other in this club. Then we listen to the recorded data with headphone in order not to be influenced by the room factors.

I envy you, because you are going to built new 5.1ch system. Good luck, Richard! I'm very looking forward to hearing about the results.

George, good Japanese! Where did you learn Japanese?

Now I am trying to change the appearance of my room. I will report about that as soon as possible I finish it.

Shuji