Summits vs Vantages and Descent i - LAST CALL

[music again]

I will throw this question out to the group ONE LAST TIME since I am going crazy over here trying to decide!!!!!!!!

Long story short . . . . I have a pair of new Vantages and a Descent i which is to be replaced this coming Tuesday. Talking with my dealer he said ML MAY swap out the Vantages and unopened Descent i for the Summits. I estimate this will cost me about $2,600. My wife does not like the sub, but then again the Summits are bigger (about 2 inched taller, an inch and a half or so wider) and certainly at least 3 to 4 inches deeper!) My room is 15 x19 with the speakers on the long wall, so front to back is somewhat short. Actually the 19 feet continues to a 10 foot foyer, so it's really 15 x 29. Ceiling is 11 feet tall, with a strectch sloping from 8 to 11". The couch is about 3/4 into the room from front to back, and almost centered in the 19 foot way. If I make this swap I have to promise no more equipment for 3 years! Of course I could sell some other hobby stuff myself to come up with some cash to upgrade electronics. . . . I'm currently running an old, but good, 100 watt Hafler DH-200 power amp and the Hafler DH-110 pre amp, with an Oppo 981.

My main interest is in two channel, with HT in the distant future, so what I buy today I don't want to have to replace later. For instance I am seriously thinking about a 2 or 3 channel BAT-6200 for now, and I can add channels later for HT. Of course I have yet to hear it, but I've read a lot of positive things both here and in the press.

Any way . . . I need to make a decision QUICK. A couple of questions for those especially who own Summits:

Do you think the Summits would be too big for a 15 x 19 size room, with them placed on the long wall? I have the Vantage panels about 36" out from the back wall right now and I don't think I could go out any further. Speakers are 64" apart measured from the inside cabinets. That puts my head (which is about to explode from this: eek: ) about 8' from the panels, leaving 4' behind me. There is a 6 foot open space to the right rear and of course it's open on the side to the foyer.

Would this be too much base from the main speakers, or manageable quality base for the room size? Integrating the sub for music requires constant tweeking of the volume level. My guesss is the two 10" woofers per side will sound better than one 8" woofer per side, plus the sub.

I see a lot of Summit based 2 channel system posted here and am wondering . . . .

HELP before I drive myself nuts!!!!!!!

JM

 

[tonyc]

My room is 16 x 14. I do not have them on the long wall. The bass is adjustable so you can make the Summits sound any way you want them. I have only heard the Vantages in a showroom. I am not sorry I went for the Summits. You will not be sorry either!

 

[music again]

Where is the "vocal" point

My room is 16 x 14. I do not have them on the long wall. The bass is adjustable so you can make the Summits sound any way you want them. I have only heard the Vantages in a showroom. I am not sorry I went for the Summits. You will not be sorry either!

How far from the wall are the panels?

How far from the panels is your head?

Where do you "hear" the vocals centered?
On my Vantages, a vocal is centered fairly low on the panel. It doesn't see to integrate with the TV. Almost seems like they are disconnected because the picture is higher than where the sound is centered.

My fear is that I'll be too close to the Summits, but you have 16' while I have 15' front to back. Where's the sound?

JM

 

[kcl]

Well, if the Summits are on a decision path for you, I'd strongly recommend going with them. I have a Descent sub 'left over' from when I upgraded from Ascents to my Summits, and when I listen to 2-channel music (which is my preferred method) I actually disable the Descent. I'm more than satisfied with the low-end only coming from the Summits. In fact, I found that when I enabled the Descent, I was continually tweaking the sub in 2-channel mode, whereas I was able to adjust the subs in the Summits to a point that I don't modify them any more.

Considering if the Summits would be too much base for your room, I sincerely doubt it. You can adjust the low-end to almost anything you want.

As for agonizing over the decision, consider this: Not only will the Summits play at an unbelievable quality level, I can almost guarantee that you can adjust them 'down' to whatever level/sound/impact you want. However, if the Vantage/Descent combo doesn't fit what you need, you'll almost certainly have to add equipment to adjust 'up' to what you want.

 

[music again]

Tweeking the sub

I'm more than satisfied with the low-end only coming from the Summits. In fact, I found that when I enabled the Descent, I was continually tweaking the sub in 2-channel mode, whereas I was able to adjust the subs in the Summits to a point that I don't modify them any more.

Considering if the Summits would be too much base for your room, I sincerely doubt it. You can adjust the low-end to almost anything you want.

Ken,

Thanks for the insight. I can relate to the constant tweeking of the sub.

What is your room size and where are your Summit's placed?

See my previous response. I'm concerned about the Summits being too "big" for a room only 15" wide front to back. There is plenty of space to the side and with an 11' ceiling a lot of room for them to breathe.

JM

 

[Gordon Gray]

Go for the Summits

Hi JM,

I must say up front that I haven't heard your current setup. However, if your main / current interest is 2 channel with an HT setup somewhere in the future, and you are happy with the soundstaging, tonality, etc. that you get from the Vantages, then I'd do the big guys. One less box and interconnect, a bigger panel, and a speaker that integrates the low end with the panels in a wonderful, musical way would carry alot of weight for me if I were making the decision.

I have mine set up with the panel fronts five (5) feet out from the back wall, seven (7) feet inside panel to inside panel, five (5) feet outside panel to side walls, and head at 10'-6" from the panel. My listening chair backs up to a freestanding kitchen island with my head just above counter height.

Regarding bass adjustment, the two (2) crossovers allow you to really dial in the bass response. As far as image height goes, what you describe seems to be typical. I would highly recommend buying Jason's (jtwrace) spikes if they are still available. That will allow you to have the panel much more perpendicular and raise the image height as well as improving everything else that the Summits do well.

A few thoughts. Does your dealer have a pair of Summits that you can borrow for the weekend? Another idea would be to move the couch back closer to the wall, which would allow you to increase the panel distance from the back wall and / or the distance from your listening position to the front panels. Third, if you buy the Summits and go into HT at a later date, you can always buy a sub at that time if you think you need it.

The final and most important issue IMHO is why you want to do this and what expectations do you have regarding improved performance? This is were an "in home" would be invaluable.

One final option to consider, as if you need more choices, is to upgrade your amp. I used to have a Hafler but, with all due respect, it is really outdated. Maybe your dealer can let you borrow a newer amp for a test drive with your current setup so you can hear what this scenario may sound like.

Having said all the above, the Summit is an incredible speaker that, if you decide to purchase, you will never look back.

Good luck.

GG

 

[tonyc]

How far from the wall are the panels?

How far from the panels is your head?

Where do you "hear" the vocals centered?
On my Vantages, a vocal is centered fairly low on the panel. It doesn't see to integrate with the TV. Almost seems like they are disconnected because the picture is higher than where the sound is centered.

My fear is that I'll be too close to the Summits, but you have 16' while I have 15' front to back. Where's the sound?

JM

My Summits are about five feet from the back wall to the panel and I sit about 8 feet back from the panels (I like the near field). Image height can be affected by tilting the panel, by changing the height of the listening chair, or by purchasing longer spikes from jtwrace(my preferred method). I use a Descent in my ML surround system but NOT in my 2 channel system=the Summits do not need it. My image height is totally dependent on the recording. Sometimes the vocals are located low on the panel, but mostly they are on the upper third and occasionally above the speakers themselves. I did have to play with them to get an image height I felt was correct.

 

[jk319]

I also vote for the Summits. I consider myself extremely lucky to have moved up to them while my deposit on Vantages remained with my dealer. No regrets whatsoever, only satisfaction with my good fortune. For music-first setup, I believe Summits are the way to go, imho.

What makes this decision extremely difficult is the imposed 3 year moratorium on upgrades. Your Summits will BEG you to buy nice products to place up the chain (just like Vantages would). I am quite satisfied presently, even with some compromises, but I foresee *possible* upgrades given enough time. Will the purchase of Summits still allow that new cdp, and other possible electronics upgrades?

 

[Beakman]

Question:
Have you done all you could with the positioning of the speakers and room treatments?
The reason I mention this is that only recently, from about a year from purchase, I have my vantages dialed in in this respect. I have a small listening environment (11'-6" x 15') for my Vantages and although the soundstage is now remarkable, I can definitely hear how and where the room restricts the music. I would LOVE to own a pair of Summits but realize that I would need to address the room size before considering such an upgrade. It's easy (and quick) to think that new hardware will satisfy a less than anticipated experience, as I myself was somewhat at a loss at first. Taking the time and effort familiarizeing myself with the speakers in the environment that I have has paid off very,very well.

 

[JONERVI]

Hi JM,

One final option to consider, as if you need more choices, is to upgrade your amp. I used to have a Hafler but, with all due respect, it is really outdated. Maybe your dealer can let you borrow a newer amp for a test drive with your current setup so you can here what this scenario may sound like.


GG

Well said Gordon................

As a current Vantage owner, (I upgraded from the Vista's) I am astounded with the natural bass response from my Vantages. I had paired my Vista's with a Quad 909 power amp, supported by a pair of REL (Q150) subs, and was quite happy with the results.

To drive my Vantages, I decided to change to a Musical Fidelity A-3.2 CR (amp & preamp combo) and what a "major" difference in bass response from the Vantages..... (wow) and my particular MFidelity combo is actually the company's entry level gear........ Now I spend a great deal of my time wondering what the more costly Musical Fidelity gear is capable of.

So, I concur.......... if possible, try your Vantages with a nicer/newer/different amp.

Good Luck !!

 

[music again]

Well said Gordon................

As a current Vantage owner, (I upgraded from the Vista's) I am astounded with the natural bass response from my Vantages. I had paired my Vista's with a Quad 909 power amp, supported by a pair of REL (Q150) subs, and was quite happy with the results.

To drive my Vantages, I decided to change to a Musical Fidelity A-3.2 CR (amp & preamp combo) and what a "major" difference in bass response from the Vantages..... (wow) and my particular MFidelity combo is actually the company's entry level gear........ Now I spend a great deal of my time wondering what the more costly Musical Fidelity gear is capable of.

So, I concur.......... if possible, try your Vantages with a nicer/newer/different amp.

Good Luck !!

Are you still using the pair of REL Q150 subs with your Vantages?

Since the Vantages (and Summits) have internal powered woofers, and the Vantage panels are crossed over at 400 Hz, I'm wondering why the bass would have a "major" improvement in bass response. Wouldn't the better amp open up the panel sound more so than the improvement of bass response? The Descent i only kicks in at 35 Hz, so I guess there is bass between 36 and 400, so isn't that covered by the Vantage powered woofers?

What effect did you notice with the mid to highs as far as improvement after you added the new amp? I may go that route.

Thanks for the help!

JM

 

[JONERVI]

Are you still using the pair of REL Q150 subs with your Vantages?

Since the Vantages (and Summits) have internal powered woofers, and the Vantage panels are crossed over at 400 Hz, I'm wondering why the bass would have a "major" improvement in bass response. Wouldn't the better amp open up the panel sound more so than the improvement of bass response? The Descent i only kicks in at 35 Hz, so I guess there is bass between 36 and 400, so isn't that covered by the Vantage powered woofers?


What effect did you notice with the mid to highs as far as improvement after you added the new amp? I may go that route.

Thanks for the help!

JM

Are you still using the pair of REL Q150 subs with your Vantages?

No.........not for 2 channel listening

Since the Vantages (and Summits) have internal powered woofers, and the Vantage panels are crossed over at 400 Hz, I'm wondering why the bass would have a "major" improvement in bass response. Wouldn't the better amp open up the panel sound more so than the improvement of bass response? The Descent i only kicks in at 35 Hz, so I guess there is bass between 36 and 400, so isn't that covered by the Vantage powered woofers?

keep in mind that I made the move from Vista's (no internally powered woofer) to Vantages (internally powered woofers) so I'm sure some of the improvement I am experiencing has to do with that aspect.

However, I have powered my Vantages three different ways:

1) Pioneer Elite receiver (VSX-74TXi)

2) Quad 909(power amp) using the Pioneer as a pre-pro

3) MFidelity A-3.2 CR amp & preamp combo

Only in configuration #3 (my current setup) I feel no need to run the REL sub(s)

What effect did you notice with the mid to highs as far as improvement after you added the new amp? I may go that route.

Yes my apologies I should have mentioned that aspect in my earlier post........I was satisfied with both the mids and highs even with my Vista's and anyone familiar with the Quad sound should know that mids on thier amps & preamps is simply outstanding.

And as previously stated by many here, for 2 channel listening the Vantages are definitely a better choice as opposed to Vista's.

However there were times when I felt a need for a little more top end, which prompted me to try the MFidelity combo, once I purchased my Vantages. And I can honestly say that the presentation of the MF stuff is great.....which subsequently allows me to enjoy listening to more rock/top 40 in addition to the jazz/classical stuff which the Quad 909 presented so well.

Thanks for the help!

Hope this helps!!

 

[Rich]

Since the Vantages (and Summits) have internal powered woofers, and the Vantage panels are crossed over at 400 Hz, I'm wondering why the bass would have a "major" improvement in bass response. Wouldn't the better amp open up the panel sound more so than the improvement of bass response?

The quality of the signal coming from the pre/amp and amp has a huge effect on the quality of the bass coming from Summits or Vantages, even though they have their own internal powered amps. I did a comparison on Vantages using the same preamp but different amps (an Anthem vs. a Sunfire). The difference in the quality of the bass between the two amps was dramatic.

The Anthem produced loose, muddy, almost incoherent bass, while the Sunfire produced powerful, tight, excellent bass response. The point here is that the only thing that changed in the signal chain was the amps. Don't be fooled into thinking your amp doesn't matter to the bass response just because these speakers have internal woofer amps. The internal amps only amplify the signal they get fed. A quality amp will (generally) produce a higher quality signal.

 

[jjay]

Since the Vantages (and Summits) have internal powered woofers, and the Vantage panels are crossed over at 400 Hz, I'm wondering why the bass would have a "major" improvement in bass response.

I had a major improvement in bass and overall performance when I switched to a McIntosh MC252 amplifier from a Rotel RB 1080 amplifier. The Mcintosh had slightly more power (250 watts to 200 watts). I don't have an answer for this. Maybe Tonepub would have a better answer. I just know it was quite a large improvement.
Jim

 

[Ron]

Hello, this is my first post. I just purchased about a month ago, the Vantages. At first I was powering them with a Primare SPA 21, Surround sound processor and amp combo. Thought it sounded very good. Then switched to a Primare SP 31 processor, and McIntosh MC 205. What a difference that made. I am very happy. Oh and have a Velodyne DD 15 which I only use for HT. For 2 channel music I am happy with the base coming from the Vantages. Rear channel speakers Vignette. Front center speaker Stage for HT. My DVD player is the New McIntosh MVP 871 which I also use for CD play back. Thought I would just list my components, since I am new here. I was never able to hear the sound of the Summits, since Magnolia Santa Monica did not have them in Stock when I purchased my system. For my room size, I think I am fine. Too late to exchange anyway.

 

[twich54]

I just purchased about a month ago, the Vantages. Oh and have a Velodyne DD 15 which I only use for HT. For 2 channel music I am happy with the base coming from the Vantages.

Ron, First off, welcome ! I like your speaker choices, for I have the same.

I thought I would respond for the point you made about being happy without using your DD-15 in the "2 channel music mix". I can tell you without reservation that if your happy now, integrate that DD-15 for that is what it was intended for !! With it's built - in SMS system it has all the capabilities to take your Vantage's to a new "Lower" level !! Once you have done it you will realize how much better the bottom two octaves have become !!

 

[music again]

Amp effect on bass - mains and sub

The quality of the signal coming from the pre/amp and amp has a huge effect on the quality of the bass coming from Summits or Vantages, even though they have their own internal powered amps.

Don't be fooled into thinking your amp doesn't matter to the bass response just because these speakers have internal woofer amps. The internal amps only amplify the signal they get fed. A quality amp will (generally) produce a higher quality signal.

Rich,

Thanks for the posting. I quess it does make sense (now) that even though the Summit/Vantage woofers are powered, they are still receiving a signal from the pre and main power amp, if i get this right. So those two pieces of electronics would make a difference on bass, not just on the panels as I had thought.

I'm also wondering then, if I upgrade my pre amp (1980's Hafler DH-110), would I get "improved" Decent i bass performance too?

JM

 

[music again]

Improved bass with the sub for 2 channel listening

Ron, First off, welcome ! I like your speaker choices, for I have the same.

I thought I would respond for the point you made about being happy without using your DD-15 in the "2 channel music mix". I can tell you without reservation that if your happy now, integrate that DD-15 for that is what it was intended for !! With it's built - in SMS system it has all the capabilities to take your Vantage's to a new "Lower" level !! Once you have done it you will realize how much better the bottom two octaves have become !!

There is no doubt that adding the Descent i to the Vantages, improves the overall bass performance/effect. It makes the music more three dimensional too. I have it off the the right by about 4 feet and about 2.5 feet from each corner wall. I tried it in the center (but infront of my equipment cabinet so it wasn't really lined up with mains correctly) and I thought it sounded great there. Much more authority and puch, and blended in well too. But, it's not a practical position for me right now with the equipment being in a cabinet (twin 21" high Salamander) in between the Vantages.

JM

 

[Rich]

I'm also wondering then, if I upgrade my pre amp (1980's Hafler DH-110), would I get "improved" Decent i bass performance too?

I don't know for a fact, but my guess would be Yes. However, remember what you said earlier that your Descent only kicks in at 35 hz., so it only covers a small part of the spectrum and the improvement may not be as noticeable as with the Vantages and Summits. I personally find that in my room (14' by 19' with ample bass traps) I do better using only the Summits for two channel and running the Descent with the Summits for home theater.

 

[music again]

14 x19 room size

I don't know for a fact, but my guess would be Yes. However, remember what you said earlier that your Descent only kicks in at 35 hz., so it only covers a small part of the spectrum and the improvement may not be as noticeable as with the Vantages and Summits. I personally find that in my room (14' by 19' with ample bass traps) I do better using only the Summits for two channel and running the Descent with the Summits for home theater.

Rich,

My room is 15' x 19' (plus another 10' for the foyer).
The Vantages are on the long wall just off center on the 19' side.
Are your Summits sitting on the short 14' wall so you have 19' front to back?

I am concerned that if I went with the Summits, 15' front to back is too close. I would only be able to keep the panels out 3' or so from the back wall, sitting about 8' from the panels, leaving 4' behind me. Ceiling 11' high.

I know there are the special spikes Gordon mentioned, and that would help bring the image more in line. Sounds like there are plenty (2) of adjustment possibilities to dial in the base.

Thoughts on the room size and speaker position?

Thanks!

JM