Bass Advice

[Fidji99]

Thanks for your concise, honest advice Fidjii99 - Didn't sound harsh at all - I've worried the Summits are too big for the room and the dim's are a major, maybe even unsurmountable challenge - but they just sound sooooooooo good lol. I have a pair of VA Beethoven Baby Grand's. They sound wonderful given their size, and did balance the bass out quite well. I did use a sub with them. I'd like to improve their tweeter as they are the prior model. Maybe that would help give them some of the airiness of the ML's. Just haven't heard anything that can do what electrostats can do in the way of soundstage and imaging (At the under $10k price range). Maybe some used Wilson Audio Sophia's or Sasha's? Do you have any recommendations?

- I will follow your advice measuring with REW. I have the app but never used it. I've measured it with the DSP from my DBX Driverack and used their eq recommendation but it seems to loose the fine detail over 400k+. Could this be just the quality of the DBX? I have little experience with Audiophile level DSP units.
- You were adamant about not using foam for panels. Just curious why?

1) Foam vs Rockwool [or similar] - rockwool is just denser and you get the same performance from thinner panels. e.g. GIK Acoustics is using this type of absorption. 4 or 6in wool panels are already usable, if yo support them with air gap and can nicely improve 80-200Hz range, if placed properly.

2) recommendation re speakers - I have one, but i do not know how applicable it is in US.
Most neutral and well behaving speakers for small room [for me] are Neumanns with Calibration and Subwoofer [sold together]
You need 2 of those
https://www.neumann.com/en-us/products/monitors/kh-750-dsp/

and 2 of those - your choice, my preference is KH310 [sealed]
https://www.neumann.com/en-us/products/monitors/kh-310-a/
or
https://www.neumann.com/en-us/products/monitors/kh-150/
150's are maybe even better, 310 might be an overkill for your size of the room.
top quality build, some review
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...neumann-kh-310a-review-powered-monitor.17723/

and then you round it with this
https://www.neumann.com/en-us/products/monitor-accessories/ma-1/

3) Wilson Audios are MUCH more finnicky to setup, even compared to ML's. I had Sasha's.

Hope this helps

 

[R.I.P]

https://www.shahinianacoustics.com/

Price approx. same as Classic ELS 9.

Sound articulate, drivers provide a very integrated sound and are detailed.

The area they shine in is musicality. Beat one of the best in this area that is Martin Logan Original CLS.

If you are considering other dynamic speakers then this is the best i have heard.

You may be pleasantly suprised when you hear Shahinian Arc loudspeakers.

 

[Nuri58]

How do thes compare to the ML traditional LS? From various reviews of ML vs ML I note there are at least some preferring the traditionals

 

[Duke]

Surfing while waiting to leave on my Mother's day adventure and I read this. While I do not know what your sub is, I recommend trying this: Whatever you choose, try to avoid convention and go nearfield. By dumping all the energy into your listening seat, you avoid problems with room boundaries and end up with a tactile sub. You owe it to yourself to try this.

Expert opinion on sub placement worth trying

I have spent thousands on this problem and now I have two big subs within 8" of the back of my listening seat. I had my first clue from emulating Fidji99 and the second from the YouTube I refer to above. I would be happy to follow up with proof and photos if it really matters to you.

 

[Duke]

another mention about nearfield and conventional placement

This video was published 05/12/2024

 

[Leporello]

Hello fellow members. I have a fairly common question regarding room treatments for bass issues. I have a pair of Summits in a room that is about 10'wide x 11'long x 9'high. I am struggling with finding a listening position that captures mid bass frequencies without compromising the spacial imaging of the panels. This seems to be the innate struggle with this type of speaker.
So far I have tried placing some foam yoga rollers in the corners (it's ok to lol) - which removed much of the boominess. very pleased with that
- I've relentlessly and patiently tweaked the speaker positions - which has been worth the effort
- added first reflection screens - a discernible improvement.
- diffused the wall behind the speakers with heavy curtains (they block the windows that sit right behind the speakers) - very helpful for the higher frequencies and imaging.
- I have a floor rug and I sit on a large couch about a foot from the back wall.
- I've also used DSP with my DBX Driverack which helped. But, honestly I'd rather not use as it as I don't want anything to alter the signal (trying to keep it purist as much as possible).
Managing the signal are a Krell KRC 2 pre and Kav 250 Amp which sit between the speakers against the front wall.
I know the size and dimensions of the room is a challenge and further treatment is necessary. I just have no idea where to start ie. diffusion or absorption. When I sit closer to the speakers the full band of bass frequencies appear, but I loose the benefit of the electrostat panels.
Thanks in advance to any and all advice!

I just re-read your post. The part about your sofa about a foot from your rear wall set off alarm bells. With loudspeakers as coherent as ML ESL's, specular reflections from the wall behind you can really do a number on imaging. I know this well from experience. What I would try is heavy absorption on the wall behind you, and stochastic diffusion, e.g. quadratic residue diffusors, behind the speakers. I know "live end-dead end" isn't trendy in home installations any more, but in your situation it could work. Too much absorption could deaden the sound. You may find the compromises you are making between bass performance and imaging could be tiled more in favor of bass.

That 9X10X11 sounds nasty though. Not exactly cubic, but maybe for all practical purposes. My living room listening area is fairly small, but irregularly shaped, including a large bay window construction, and large openings into adjoining rooms. I've lived in a number of spaces like that and the optimum setup has always been with the speakers in the polygonal bay window area and the listening position near the opening to the dining room. Totally avoids the near reflections from behind problem. Also allows listening throughout the flat.

I'm a little surprised that rolled up yoga mat had any effect at all in mid-bass, actually. Typically eigenmodes in that range are tamed by resonant absorbers e.g. "Tube Traps".

 

[Leporello]

Lots of ways to achieve successful results. Just takes time and money! I consider the time aspect the fun part! . . . along with the learning.

The only problem I have with the time part is after a while I get burned out and lazy, and just want to sit and listen to the music. But I do have a fair amount of critical listening time invested in my setup.

 

[R.I.P]

How do thes compare to the ML traditional LS? From various reviews of ML vs ML I note there are at least some

Difficult to be objective when comparing an apple with an orange to determine which tastes better. If not mistaken, a conclusive answer is subjective in nature.

However, for instance if contrast based on objective criteria such as which one is good for bolstering immunity against germs since orange contains vitamin C or apple includes flavonoids and hence provides antioxidant benefit. Then based on specified narrow criteria can compare and decide.

Difficult to be objective when comparing traditional or vintage original CLS with latest generation Classic ELS 9 to determine which sounds better. Answer is subjective in nature.

However, for instance if base contrast on objective criteria such as which one has greater amplifier friendly high frequency loudspeaker resistance. Then comparison can be done.

Possible to contrast and compare CLS range with CLX and different generations of hybrid loudspeakers. Similar to contrast and comparison of varieties of orange or comparison of varieties of apple.

Net or overall, I prefer CLS sonics over Classic 9, largely due to outstanding sonic picture. Though with correct room size, matching amplification and correct setup both have the potential to sound great. CLS has greater potential to sound superb or outstanding.