Summit X midrange

[twich54]

I remain skeptical of this whole wire thing but am willing to give some exotic wire a try.

as you should, high priced wire WILL NOT correct a room acoustical issue ......pure BS !!

OK, now that I got that out of the way lets continue on the correct path that the others got you started on...............mentioning room treatments is important but what is more important is understanding how to apply them correctly. The mere fact that some simple foam and a few beach towels showed signs of improvement means you're headed in the right direction.

Treatments are usually grouped in categories of absorption and diffusion. Corner loading of bass freq for example require absorption and to do so one need sufficient thickness of material to absorb the longer wavelegths of the lower octaves, the reverse of this as you climb up the freq ladder.

So, understand that your beach towels provided little or no absorption but did possibly provide an ounce or two of diffusion. With that being said if you can 't bring your speakers further into the room (ideally 4-6 feet) then a combination of absortion and diffusion behind them would probably be good.

remember junior high science class.......angle of incidence equals angle of reflection........well that's how you treat your side wall first reflection points (2-3" of accoustical foam or similar should be fine)

This is but a snipit of info for you, hopefully JonFo and a few of the other 'pros' will chime in as well !

 

[autoformer]

Thanks Dave! Good info.

My simple beach towel/foam experiments have been very revealing. As you say, they are far from the right materials for this purpose, but even so, the difference in the room is quite audible.

Time to start learning about acoustic materials and placement.

as you should, high priced wire WILL NOT correct a room acoustical issue ......pure BS !!

OK, now that I got that out of the way lets continue on the correct path that the others got you started on...............mentioning room treatments is important but what is more important is understanding how to apply them correctly. The mere fact that some simple foam and a few beach towels showed signs of improvement means you're headed in the right direction.

Treatments are usually grouped in categories of absorption and diffusion. Corner loading of bass freq for example require absorption and to do so one need sufficient thickness of material to absorb the longer wavelegths of the lower octaves, the reverse of this as you climb up the freq ladder.

So, understand that your beach towels provided little or no absorption but did possibly provide an ounce or two of diffusion. With that being said if you can 't bring your speakers further into the room (ideally 4-6 feet) then a combination of absortion and diffusion behind them would probably be good.

remember junior high science class.......angle of incidence equals angle of reflection........well that's how you treat your side wall first reflection points (2-3" of accoustical foam or similar should be fine)

This is but a snipit of info for you, hopefully JonFo and a few of the other 'pros' will chime in as well !

 

[Lagonda]

Fix your room first, to bright a room will mess up your soundstage to. A treated room is a must, but the right cables can give your components a synergy that is missing. There must be plenty of cables out there that warm up the midrange.
Most dealers will let you try them out, they dont have to be costly, i just know the Cardas and Sraightwire because they helpt me tame my CLS's when i was having the same problem.

 

[autoformer]

Using 2 ohm taps made a huge difference

Just wanted to follow up on this thread with my latest results.

As part of my work to get better sound out of my Summits, I decided to try driving them from the 2 ohm taps on my McIntosh amp. Lo and behold, I had a huge improvement. For the first time since I've owned these speakers, I have been able to sit down and listen to a wide variety of music without cringing!

I took down some of the foam I was using for acoustic experiments and I'm still getting the sound I want. The midrange is a lot less harsh and penetrating, so I am able to listen a higher volumes. The music just sounds better - even tthat poorly recorded 70's pop we sometimes listen to.

I spoke with my dealer on this and he confirmed that they have set up Martin Logans like this in the past. In particular, he talked about a customer with CLXs that sounded much better on the 2 ohm taps of his McIntosh amp. He said the 2 ohm taps can lead to an overly thick sound on speakers like Magnepans, but that the higher current seems to help tame the somewhat brighter Logan ESL panels.

I still need some acoustic work in my room, but the midrange tonal quality that was driving me crazy seems to be gone!

 

[twich54]

Very good, this option was brought forth awhile back by Jeff (Tonepub) where he advised using two ohm taps (if provided), glad you're sonically regulated !

 

[autoformer]

I have continued listening on the 2 ohm taps to an even wider variety of music. Everything just plain sounds great. No more pain in the ears!!

I saw the post where tonepub was saying that he uses the 2 ohm tap for Summits on the MC252, but that the difference is small. Guess we all hear things differently because to me the difference could not be more pronounced.

Very good, this option was brought forth awhile back by Jeff (Tonepub) where he advised using two ohm taps (if provided), glad you're sonically regulated !

 

[iove]

I have continued listening on the 2 ohm taps to an even wider variety of music. Everything just plain sounds great. No more pain in the ears!!

I saw the post where tonepub was saying that he uses the 2 ohm tap for Summits on the MC252, but that the difference is small. Guess we all hear things differently because to me the difference could not be more pronounced.

I agree with you. I hear a big difference between the 8 and 4 ohm tap on my MC402 with the Vantage. My mancave is overly dampened to the point where I used the 8 ohm tap to add some liveliness. :music:

 

[Gordon]

Like the name you use!! I have the 501's with Spires. I've found the 4 Ohm tap to most pleasing to me. I tried all three and it was like the three bears! 8= to fat, 2= to thin and 4= just right!!

My panels are vertical and the they are placed 5 feet into the room with quite a few absorbers/traps placed in the room. The two HF absorbers directly behind each panel had a HUGE impact on the mids. The bass traps in all the corners really smoothed out the bottom.

As to wires, you're choice. A debate that will never convince either side to try or accept. I'm in the believer camp, but don't hold the non believers as closed minded.

Welcome to the club autoformer!!

Gordon

 

[autoformer]

It's interesting that you describe the 2 ohm tap as too thin, while the poster above seems to be saying that it dulls the sound. Differences in our hearing or just the way we describe things? Difference in our amps? Who knows, but I guess that's what makes the hobby fun!

As to interconnects and wires, I'm studying characteristics of different types of wire and will make up my own. I'm pretty handy with my soldering station! Right now I'm using 4 conductor solid core copper with a pair each to - and +, and twisted around each other in the jacket. Terminated with gold bananas that we use for high current applications in self launching sailplanes.

Like the name you use!! I have the 501's with Spires. I've found the 4 Ohm tap to most pleasing to me. I tried all three and it was like the three bears! 8= to fat, 2= to thin and 4= just right!!

My panels are vertical and the they are placed 5 feet into the room with quite a few absorbers/traps placed in the room. The two HF absorbers directly behind each panel had a HUGE impact on the mids. The bass traps in all the corners really smoothed out the bottom.

As to wires, you're choice. A debate that will never convince either side to try or accept. I'm in the believer camp, but don't hold the non believers as closed minded.

Welcome to the club autoformer!!

Gordon

 

[jjay]

I also believe this is a brightness issue. In one review of the Summit X the reviewer changed the toe in to almost no toe in to relieve this brightness problem. I tried it on my Vantages and it helped quite a bit. Trying absorbion behind the speakers also help.

 

[Len44]

For some reason, in my untreated room, those old $500/pair speakers, sitting right next to the Summit Xs, sound just wonderful.

Are you saying you have multiple speakers next to each other? Perhaps a pic or two might prove helpful...

 

[autoformer]

No, the Summits are normally out by themselves in the theater, but we pull out the Magneplanar SMGAs when we want to enjoy some music. I position them just inside and about 1 foot forward of the Summits. I snap a photo next time I have them out. The SMGAs are very lightweight, so its no problem to move them into position for a listening session.

Are you saying you have multiple speakers next to each other? Perhaps a pic or two might prove helpful...

 

[autoformer]

Thin, hard midrange back again

My theater installer just got done with the majority of work in the room and because of the final placement of the electronics, we connected the speakers temporarily with some different wire (Belden 10 gauge). Wow, I never believed wires made much of a difference, but after switching to the Beldens from my DIY solid core copper wire, and that lean, hard midrange is back! I listened for 5 minutes before leaving the room with my ears ringing like crazy. Same electronics, same speaker positions, still on the 2 ohm taps, no difference in the room. Just speaker wire. Amazing.

I'll be experimenting today to try and figure it out.

 

[Gordon]

As I mentioned before, I'm a believer in the differences in wire. I can't explain the science or the reasons why, just there is in my opinion. I'm actually glad you had this experience. Nothing like your own ears to prove or disprove what YOU are hearing. Have fun in your journey!!

Gordon

 

[Lagonda]

Now that you have heard what difference cables can make, try letting them play for a longer period of time. They will change sound as they brake in.

 

[autoformer]

Yeah, I was pretty surprised. So, you think I should let them play with that Belden stuff for a while before passing judgement? Break-in will have to occur while I'm not in the room. Preferably not in the house. Maybe out of State?

The difference when switching back to the DIY quad conductor solid copper is dramatic. I would never have believed it if I hadn't heard it myself. You don't even need to A/B the wire to hear the difference. It's that distinct. The Summits sound ok on the solid core, but really bright on the Belden with lots of sibilance in vocals and an even leaner midrange that will have you running for the Advil.

Then again, some with different ears might say that the Belden "opened up the space between instruments", "created a more three dimensional soundstage", or improved high frequency extension and allowed me to "hear things in the recording I'd never heard before".

Now that you have heard what difference cables can make, try letting them play for a longer period of time. They will change sound as they brake in.

 

[Gordon Gray]

MIT and Kimber Cable offer some entry level wire that is quite good.

If you do some research, you'll find others like Anti-Cable, etc.

If you are serious, you may want to investigate before installing any wire.

GG

 

[autoformer]

I am going to test drive some Transparent Music Wave. That's where I am - EQ via speaker wire.

MIT and Kimber Cable offer some entry level wire that is quite good.

If you do some research, you'll find others like Anti-Cable, etc.

If you are serious, you may want to investigate before installing any wire.

GG

 

[Tosh]

Autoformer, you said you used banana plugs? Hopefully they are the type of plugs that one can tighten (expand), as a regular spring-loaded-only banana isn't always the reliable low-resistance high current connector needed here.

Although those LS4 bananas look pretty good in photos, I haven't seen them in person. I hope you are auditioning new wire with the same type of banana plugs?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Tosh,

I've recently tried the "Z plug", which seems to offer a secure fit. However, I switched back to my Monster X-Terminators (expandable banana plug) and did notice a positive difference.

GG