Summit X and which sub? Descent i or Depth i

[GW1800]

I'm reposting it here as so far I've gotten no responses from the "New" section. I have also edited it some also. Need some input!


Although I love these speakers alittle more on the bottom end would be nice. My setup is just stereo music sacd source. Most likely will go with two subs. Where do I set the crossover the manual says 70% of low end of main speakers with summits at 24 hz that will be a problem. Just talked to ML and they suggested the two depth i's. He said that the depth's with 8" was a little more musical i.e. faster. He said that although they will not go as low he felt that they would integrate better (Why does the descent integrate so good with the CLx then?). He also suggested to cross over at 70-80 hz. which I replied that I don't really want to add or replace the good bass that is already there(there are two outputs from the Mcintosh SACD player the balanced set goes to the Mcintosh 402 and the unblanced set will go to the subs) from the Summits so I was thinking more like 30/35hz(this was mentioned in one of the MLO's I did find something). He then thought that this was a good idea. I then questioned that I would of thought that ML would have a more solid reccommendation for the Summit x's on which sub to go with but they do not.

My room is relatively small 13'x20' with 9' ceilings. The system (Mcintosh 500 CD/SACD and 402 amp - thats right no preamp also Sonos to one of the digital inputs on the 500) this equipment is set on on the narrow end and the sub(s) would need to be inline with the speakers(I do not have enough room to put them behind). Although the room is long in reality I have only about 2/3's that lengh where I'm sitting the rest of the room more of a bar setup. Again this is for music only setup. I reviewed many MLO postings searching for some past info but found few that were helpfull. I'm getting the impression that this is not a common setup and wonder why? Don't get me wrong the bass that is there is outstanding but again a little more lower would be perfect. Just uncertain on how to proceed with the best chance for success. Just a little more info over the weekend I hooked up an exisiting Velodyne 12" that I had with the crossover set to about 40(that is as low as I could set it) and left the Summits as is. I did notice an immediate positvie impact on the lower end and the whole setup sounded better. This was a good test but I need a better sub.

MMC

 

[Hocky]

If you're looking for more visceral impact, I would probably take the descent route and cross it over higher. It'll take some time to figure out how to get it blend properly, though. If you're not looking for more visceral impact, I am not sure what you're looking for since the summits play pretty deeply and pretty loudly. :-\

 

[Audioseduction]

I had a sub and it was OVER kill! Much cleaner and better sounding just the X's alone.

 

[GW1800]

Hocky - Ya that is what I'm trying to say but why cross over so high not lower like I was thinking?

Audioseduction - Explain overkill? If the bass is clean and deeper which I would think it is then how is this overkill?

I know this is different but the CLX is just slightly higher at 56 Hz. never heard them but if a sub improves them I would think the same for the Summits???

 

[Hocky]

Hocky - Ya that is what I'm trying to say but why cross over so high not lower like I was thinking?

You're going to get it to blend easiest crossing over lower like you suggest. However, you're not going gain nearly as much impact from the subs as you would with the crossover higher. The subs will definitely move more air more dynamically at those frequencies than the Summits will. I currently have my Summit X's crossed into my JL F212 at 60hz and like the results, but it does provide more impact if I cross at 80.

 

[GW1800]

Hocky - I sometimes wonder if I should not of went with the Spires and then the subs Vs the Summits and the sub. it sure would of been less costly. Just like you said the higher cross over will help the impact but then its like the money spent on the 2 10" woofers in the Summits are being wasted to some degree? Also did you have your JL sub already or just did not like the ML subs and do you have one or two subs? Do you mostly listen to music?

 

[Hocky]

Hocky - I sometimes wonder if I should not of went with the Spires and then the subs Vs the Summits and the sub. it sure would of been less costly. Just like you said the higher cross over will help the impact but then its like the money spent on the 2 10" woofers in the Summits are being wasted to some degree? Also did you have your JL sub already or just did not like the ML subs and do you have one or two subs? Do you mostly listen to music?

I sometimes think the same thing about Spires vs Summits. haha. ;-) I used to have a Descent (original) and it was quite good, but I got a bug to update/upgrade (and coincidentally while I was shopping my Descent was minorly damaged) and bought the F212. I only have 1 subwoofer because my current room has some serious placement limitations for subs, unfortunately. I am probably 60% HT and 40% music.

 

[MOON]

GW1800,

My room is almost identical to yours at 12x20. I bought 2 Depth i's in August to go with my Odyssey's. Am I happy , you bet! They add so much more to my listening pleasure, expanded soundstage, foundation, etc 100% better.I have the Depth i's even with the outside of each Odyssey with the back of the sub even with the front of the Odyssey. The front of each sub is pointed to my central listening position. I also bought the Depth i's for their speed and musicality.

I used to have a single depth, original. Definately go for 2 subs, it sounds much better than just 1 sub. I sold the depth to fund another purchase last year and regretted it the minute I unhooked it. I made a decision right then to buy 2 Depth i's over a new TT or Monoblocks. I have the subs set at level 6 and the 25 hz control on 0, straight up.I will try to get time next week to update my system pictures with the Depth i's in .

I read on the forums here from an ML dealer that they prefer bringing in the ML subs as low as possibe. I have mine at 35hz.

 

[GW1800]

Moon

Did you feel you gave up anything going with the depth vs descent? Have you hear the descent? When two are purchased there is a big difference in money. I just Don't want to regret this but with this size room maybe the depths are the right size. I do want two of something it's just which ones. How low does your odyssey's go on there own? Summits go to 24hz.

Mmc

 

[dmusoke]

Phase Align your subs with your mains for best sound.

I'm reposting it here as so far I've gotten no responses from the "New" section. I have also edited it some also. Need some input!


Although I love these speakers alittle more on the bottom end would be nice. My setup is just stereo music sacd source. Most likely will go with two subs. Where do I set the crossover the manual says 70% of low end of main speakers with summits at 24 hz that will be a problem. Just talked to ML and they suggested the two depth i's. He said that the depth's with 8" was a little more musical i.e. faster. He said that although they will not go as low he felt that they would integrate better (Why does the descent integrate so good with the CLx then?). He also suggested to cross over at 70-80 hz. which I replied that I don't really want to add or replace the good bass that is already there(there are two outputs from the Mcintosh SACD player the balanced set goes to the Mcintosh 402 and the unblanced set will go to the subs) from the Summits so I was thinking more like 30/35hz(this was mentioned in one of the MLO's I did find something). He then thought that this was a good idea. I then questioned that I would of thought that ML would have a more solid reccommendation for the Summit x's on which sub to go with but they do not.

My room is relatively small 13'x20' with 9' ceilings. The system (Mcintosh 500 CD/SACD and 402 amp - thats right no preamp also Sonos to one of the digital inputs on the 500) this equipment is set on on the narrow end and the sub(s) would need to be inline with the speakers(I do not have enough room to put them behind). Although the room is long in reality I have only about 2/3's that lengh where I'm sitting the rest of the room more of a bar setup. Again this is for music only setup. I reviewed many MLO postings searching for some past info but found few that were helpfull. I'm getting the impression that this is not a common setup and wonder why? Don't get me wrong the bass that is there is outstanding but again a little more lower would be perfect. Just uncertain on how to proceed with the best chance for success. Just a little more info over the weekend I hooked up an exisiting Velodyne 12" that I had with the crossover set to about 40(that is as low as I could set it) and left the Summits as is. I did notice an immediate positvie impact on the lower end and the whole setup sounded better. This was a good test but I need a better sub.

MMC

GW:

I have had new pair of Spires for a month or so now and run them with dual subs on the long wall of my room(12' x 20'). The combination is simply superb but before you get to this point, you have to 'phase align' the subs with respect to each other and then once aligned as one, you phase-align the combo with your summits. I wrote a procedure on AVS on how to do this here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19542630#post19542630 Its called the NULL Method and it works great! Worth the effort and time taken to do it.

As i said before, my subs are on the opposite side of the long 20ft wall and my Spires are 3 feet from the side walls and 2.5' infront of the front wall. Even though the Spires go down to 29Hz, i cross my subs over at 60Hz for they are able to easily produce the below 20Hz bass w/o much effort.

I believe the reason why some object to mixing subs with their Xstats is the lack of proper phase alignment in this critical crossover region. If this process isn't done at all or done correctly, then the pairing of the subs and mains will be terrible and produce unsatisfactory results. In my case, the subs are invisible in that i don't hear them at all except in the lowest of registers even though i cross them at 60Hz.

 

[GW1800]

Tried to go to your "null" method but says it doesn't exist?... Am I missing something?

Mmcp

 

[GaryG]

GW: Your main question is Depth or Descent. You called ML and someone there suggested the Depth i's might be best since they are a little more musical and he suggested you bring the subs in between 70 or 80 Hz. For some reason you weren't completely comfortable with the ML persons recommendation or you would not be on this forum. I think the person at ML gave reasonable advice given the size of your room and your two channel non-movie musical listening. When you say you would like a little more on the bottom end, what do you mean? The Summits are -3 dB at 24 Hz. What are you looking for, "impact"? Do you want to feel a kick drum in the chest? Do you want to feel and I mean feel the warm resonance of the bow on low notes of a double bass? Looking at the stats the Depth i goes down to 20 Hz and the Descent i goes down to 18 Hz. Almost double the price for only two Hz statistically speaking. Of course I'm not recommending you buy any speaker based on statistics but since both are in the ML family with very similar design they have a similar flavor. That brings me back to "impact". Having a total of six 10 inch woofers may give more kick to the kick drum.

Hocky wrote:

"If you're looking for more visceral impact, I would probably take the descent route and cross it over higher. It'll take some time to figure out how to get it blend properly, though. If you're not looking for more visceral impact, I am not sure what you're looking for since the summits play pretty deeply and pretty loudly."

"You're going to get it to blend easiest crossing over lower like you suggest. However, you're not going gain nearly as much impact from the subs as you would with the crossover higher. The subs will definitely move more air more dynamically at those frequencies than the Summits will. I currently have my Summit X's crossed into my JL F212 at 60hz and like the results, but it does provide more impact if I cross at 80."

And you replied: "Hocky - Ya that is what I'm trying to say but why cross over so high not lower like I was thinking?" Hocky has already answered in his last few words "but it does provide more impact if I cross at 80"

I use 4 subs 2 Descent's and 2 Velodyne DD-18's. I crossover at 80 Hz. Yes, I cut my CLX mains off at 80 and I cut my Prodigy rears off at 80 (when I listen to multichannel) and I get "impact" and warm resonnance. Why would you buy a pair of speakers (subs) that specialize in low frequencies of say 18-120 Hz and then cut them off at 30 Hz? Wow $7000 for only a few Hz. Here is an easy test. Cut the subs at 30 Hz turn everything else off and play your music. Make sure you have a good book to read because you won't hear much.

I guess I'll make the same recommendation as Hocky. Buy the Descents and make the effort to integrate them properly for your taste. If I've read properly between the lines, I believe you will be using a higher cut off than you currently think.

As an aside they have been beta testing a new more powerful Descent i at ML. I don't know when or if they will release it. They are also beta testing a new 15" sub for a future release.

Regards,
Gary

 

[twich54]

Audioseduction - Explain overkill? If the bass is clean and deeper which I would think it is then how is this overkill?

What George means (I think) is it will likely over presuurize your room and given your rather modest / small room size and knowing the capabilities of the Sumitt 'X' I doubt very much if you have them set up correctly and or interaction with the rooms acoustic signature is way off.

if you do go the 2 sub route you had best know what your doing in regards to room treatments for I guarantee you'll be building one giant 'Boom-Box' !

 

[GaryG]

What George means (I think) is it will likely over presuurize your room and given your rather modest / small room size and knowing the capabilities of the Sumitt 'X' I doubt very much if you have them set up correctly and or interaction with the rooms acoustic signature is way off.

if you do go the 2 sub route you had best know what your doing in regards to room treatments for I guarantee you'll be building one giant 'Boom-Box' !

For many years I used Prodigy's as mains and even though I had/have a large room and 2 Descent subs I did not use my subs for 2 channel music. But (IMHO) I was wrong. I did not have my subs and my room accoustics properly integrated. There is a lot of info on this forum on room accoustics and ML's. Additionally "RUR" has recently posted a number of links that are good regarding subs, do a search of some of his recent posts. Here is one that I remember:

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Technologyleadership/Documents/White Papers/multsubs.pdf

I understand George's point of view. The Summit-X is a full range speaker and you can even bring out the bass with proper set-up and room treatment. But if you really want more "impact" then work at integrating the subs. YMMV

Gary

 

[babydoc]

Your room is nearly the same size as mine. I had Summits with a pair of Descent i's in the front and a pair of Descents in the rear (for HT). You actually will notice the most improvement in the mid-range and with multiple subs you can work around bass nodes due to placement. The M-L subs allow for some tweaking of phase and definitely in volume. Since you are listening to music rather than Tyrannosaurus Rex bass effects, you will not be going after heart-stopping LFE's just honest bass when it is there (tympanic and pedal organ mostly) and support for the rest of your speakers. I would suggest going for Descent's rather than Depths as the woofer elements are identical to the Summit's except each has 3 of them. I now have CLXes so there is need for subs due to the deliberate low frequency roll off in the panels. Your best bet in setting them up is to do it with an assistant as one of you can make the phase and volume adjustments while the other listens for better or worse-the optometrist approach to checking vision.

 

[dmusoke]

My mistake GW. I amended the post above with the correct link address. In case that fails, here it is: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19542630#post19542630

BTW, i also have bass panels in the corners of my room. mid-bass panels in the ceiling corners and high frequency panels on the side walls. These help to greatly tame the trouble some room modes prevalent in small rooms like ours, without dampening the sound in the room. Their quantity, type and placement was a design recommendation from Ready Acoustics.

 

[GW1800]

Ok it looks like the consensus is unknown except that two is best and most think to crossover higher in the 60-80 hz area. Any more input as far as which one to go with?

 

[GaryG]

Ok it looks like the consensus is unknown except that two is best and most think to crossover higher in the 60-80 hz area. Any more input as far as which one to go with?

With the Summit's and Descent's you will have 10x(10 inch) woofers. It just doesn't get much better than that. :ROFL:

Let us know what you decide.

 

[MOON]

GW1800,

To answer your question, no I haven't heard the descent i. With Ml suggesting the depth was more musical as well as I read it on these forums from an ML dealer, I decided to go the Depth i route. I also thought 2 Decent i's would be overkill for a room my size and take up too much floor space.

Twitch had a good point on room acoustics. I have ASC tube traps, 16x78 inches tall in every corner as well as 1st and 2nd reflection points taken care of. My Odyssey's don't go as low as your speakers do.Either way, I don't think you could go wrong with either the depths or descents, and yes , buy 2 .

 

[Audioseduction]

Audioseduction - Explain overkill? If the bass is clean and deeper which I would think it is then how is this overkill?

My room is about the same as you’re except I have my equipment on the long wall and is 14' and instead of 13' like yours. I have several bass traps and tweaked the bass play back to perfection. I also think that cone drivers will produce higher levels of bass then panels will. I guess your room is sucking out the bass frequencies which makes it more difficult to get proper bass response in your room.