Stereophile recommended - No Martin Logans?

[tonepub]

One thing to keep in mind also, is that mfrs usually only have so many pairs of speakers or amplifiers in circulation at one time...

I'm sure ML didn't expect us to buy the Vantages and the Summits that they sent us, so I know we are responsible for taking two pairs out of circulation that were probably headed for another reviewer!

Same with the Descent and Grotto subs. I liked em both so much, I replaced my REL in the main system with the Descent and put the Grotto in the second system with my Harbeths.

 

[eknuds01]

Neil,

I really appreciate your observations and contributions to this site but I would like to ask a favor.

You obviously don't like Jeff D. and seem to take any opportunity to make disparaging remarks about Jeff. Witness the last two lines of your second from last post on this thread.

I'd really appreciate it if you could refrain from doing this anymore. It accomplishes nothing positive relative to purpose and spirit of this Club.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Gordon

Gordon -

At times Neil can come across as a really informed and knowledgeable poster on this forum...and then he goes and makes a lot of childish remarks. He's got some brass balls writing how Jeff can't set up a piece of equipment.

I agree whole heartedly with your comment. I have no idea why Neil engages in that sort of debate with Jeff. He simply can't get over himself. Heaven forbid I ever audition some Mac gear and not like it. I shudder to think about the deluge of posts that will spew forth from Neil about ignorant I am about high end audio.

I have always enjoyed and valued Jeff's input. I think it's great that we have an editor/reviewer that posts (well used to post regularly) about his findings, tastes, and experiences with this hobby. I thought he's always been direct and honest with how his business works and he likes to run TONE. I haven't read every issue, but his magazine is a welcome departure from TAS and Stereophile.

I, more or less, just ignore Neil's posts. I hope Jeff can grow a thick skin and ignore Neil's drivel too. This forum is a better place with Jeff D around.

Funny...I don't see anyone stating how much better or friendly this environment is when Neil is around.

Just my $0.02

Erik

 

[slowGEEZR]

I read TAS, stereophile and TONE and think they all do a great job! Both TAS and stereophile have, for many years, had to repeatedly defend themselves from the paranoid who think they bias their reviews towards their advertisers. They continuously bring this stuff out into the open and explain their policies, but some people continue to believe they beef up their advertisers products reviews. I think they have been very honest and as subjective as is possible and will continue to read all three as sources of input to my home audio knowledge.

 

[tonepub]

Thanks for the word up guys...

However, in defense of my competitors, here's a little more insight into the industry....

While we might not all agree with what everyone writes, at the end of the day you have to remember that John Atkinson and Robert Harley have been writing equipment reviews for 20 years. As much as I've had the privilege to hear a lot in 4 years (as a professional reviewer) they've heard even more.

And they are no different than any other audio enthusiast/music lover, I'm sure if you pulled em on the side you would find out that they have a certain bias for this kind of thing or that.

I still read both of them, hifi + and whatever magazines I can get my hands on. Partially, because I don't like to cover too much of what they cover so that you all have something a little different to read and part to keep up with the competition and get a scoop now and then!

The high end industry is a lot smaller than you might think. As much as we would like to think there are behind the scenes shenanigans, if any of us write a review that's really off base, there are too many of you out there in internet land to get away with much for long.

The only way I see a review to be successful is if you are able to audition that piece of gear and agree with me or totally disagree with me. If we haven't described it well enough or accurately enough, we aren't doing our job well.

Otherwise what we have to say isn't of much use. For example, I like panels and british speakers, tube amps, mini monitors and British turntables, so I tend to prefer Art Dudley's column in stereophile because I like a lot of the same things..

Even with Mikey. While I didn't draw the same conclusion as he did with the Continuum Criterion, after listening to it for three months, I feel a lot of what he wrote about it to be true. I "get" the Continuum sound and see why Mikey likes it, especially considering the rest of his system.

You'll have to read my review in this issue of TONE (hopefully out on Monday of next week) to read the bone chilling conclusion. But I can tell you this much, I'm sending it back next week, I'm not buying it.

So, I'll be happy to hang out here more if you guys want me to. I was kind of getting the feeling that my presence wasn't welcome for a while. It's your forum, I'm just a visitor.

And besides, what other hifi magazine editor loves their M-L's as much as I do? Oh that's right, they all have Wilson Maxx 2's!

 

[DTB300]

And they are no different than any other audio enthusiast/music lover, I'm sure if you pulled em on the side you would find out that they have a certain bias for this kind of thing or that.

This is so true, and one has to learn the bias each of these reviewers has and find the one that you agree with based on listening experiences of your own. Only then can you take a review for its words on paper - and then still only to a point.

So, I'll be happy to hang out here more if you guys want me to. I was kind of getting the feeling that my presence wasn't welcome for a while. It's your forum, I'm just a visitor.

Please stick around and do not worry about the few that seem to not want you here. I would imagine there are many who do not like my presence and my posts either - big deal - but I will always post my opinions and ideas independent of others agreeing with me or not. Your insights and discussions are a great addition to this forum. This is EVERYONES forum, with Tom probably being the sole owner and sole decision maker of the fate of the board and its members. Like all forums which are public posting places, this too is a place for opinion and discussions, and most of us keep from using personal attacks.

 

[twich54]

So, I'll be happy to hang out here more if you guys want me to. I was kind of getting the feeling that my presence wasn't welcome for a while.

Jeff, I believe I speak for the majority here.....Hang with us baby, I know your tough skinned enough to handle the one or two individuals that "all" forums tend to have !

It's your forum, I'm just a visitor.

No, your a 'Senior member' ! Therfore you are part of what makes up this forum !

 

[Rich]

I always appreciate Jeff D's posts and input. I think it is invaluable to have industry insiders like Jeff and Ethan as active members of the forum. They can provide insight that is a little different than everyone else. And, Jeff, please don't feel because you are a magazine editor that you are different from anyone else on this forum. You have a right to be here, and to post your opinions, as much as any of us, and most of us truly appreciate your presence.

As everyone knows, I am as much for hotly contested debate as anyone. If I disagree with your opinion on a subject, I will say so and make my argument in no uncertain terms. But it is key in a forum like this that we address the topic under consideration and not make personal slights at each other to get our point across. Suggesting someone who is a professional reviewer can't set up a piece of equipment right falls into this category. It is a personal attack that has little to do with the topic at hand and it just doesn't belong in the forum.

I agree with some of Neil's ideas and opinions and I vehemently disagree with others. That is o.k. It makes for good discussion and debate. But we all need to limit ourselves to good discussion and debate, while not resorting to personal attacks against other members.

 

[Bernard]

For example, I like panels and british speakers, tube amps, mini monitors and British turntables, so I tend to prefer Art Dudley's column in stereophile because I like a lot of the same things..

This just means that you are like the rest of us, with our own biases and opinions. It makes for a richer mix in the forum.

So, I'll be happy to hang out here more if you guys want me to. I was kind of getting the feeling that my presence wasn't welcome for a while. It's your forum, I'm just a visitor.

A visitor? I think you are an integral part of this looney bin of hi-fi fanatics. If you left, this forum would lose a valuable asset. Please stay.

 

[roberto]

Hola Jeff. When you don't speak fluent English and also do not have the skills to express yourself with the right words and then we read you, we thanks God the we have you! I can agreed or disagreed your comments, but with respect!!! I have some time in this forum, and all I can say is that I had learned that we don't listen the same, and some of my likings are not necessary yours, but I do respect your findings and honesty words. This passion that have for high end gear is a good thing. This forum is a good thing too. We need you both! Happy listening, and warm regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.

 

[MickeyVee]

Thank you Jeff for the insites into the publishing industry.

We all pick and choose what we want to read and some of us read everything we can get our hands on. I used to read everything I could get but an now finding that I am getting more particular in my choices, whether its an online publication like yours, or a print magazine from the US or UK.

I do have to admit that sometimes, I really don't udnerstand the reviews and wording used, particulary the US mangazines so my preference has gone to UK publichations which I find down to earth.

In Tone 14, you have a review of the Rega CD players with the obvious no cost recommedation being the Saturn. I applaud and respect the commentary that there is a palce for both of them depending on your situation, budget and supporting gear. I did a lot of online research on the Regas before I auditioned and on round two, listened to the Saturn. Well, my budget does not allow for it and I went with the Apollo knowing that it was good value for the money.

As a budding audiopline (and video too), I would like to know that I am getting good value for the money, no necessarily the best overall. The Rega review did clearly state the difference and did give good examples of what fits where. Thank you for that and for your integrity.

I really don't care about the politics within the industry but do look for honest reviews that would tweak my interest to go out and audition a new piece of hardware or new music. The rest is up to me.

I for one, and beleive that many do, appreciate your input in this forum. Thanks and keep up the good work!

 

[asindc]

I believe their list includes ONLY components they've previously reviewed, and they haven't reviewed any ML's lately. On the other hand, I think The Absolute Sound reviewed both the Vantage and Summit, but I don't recall if they publish a similar "Recommended" list.

Neither Absolute Sound nor Stereophile has reviewed the Vantage. AS reviewed the Vista and Summit, and I don't think Stereophile has reviewed either. Both magazines emphatically state that they do not include in their rankings products that they did not review. Seems credible to me.

Jeff's ToneAudio online magazine and a British mag called Hi-Fi News (which is featured on ML's website) are the only magazines I'm aware of that have reviewed the Vantage. Of course, the relative lack of reviews didn't stop me from buying mine!

Add me to the list of members who welcome Jeff's input as a fellow member and an industry insider. BTW, given Neil's passion towards the McIntosh MC275, I really would like to audition it in my system to see what the hoopla is about!

Anthony

 

[David Matz]

Re-frame the question

Neil, maybe you can take advantage of the available market niche and start your own magazine where you will review and write your own honest opinions about every component you try. It will no doubt be a fun read.

Kidding aside, it seems to me that since there are so few negative reviews, the editors either don't bother writing them as Jeff has acknowledged or they don't hire enough reviewers. Does anyone know how much reviewers get paid? Also, how hard does the vendor need to try to get their product reviewed?

Another complicating factor, and Jeff alludes to it, is system synergy. Maybe the reviewers don't want to bother yanking everything from their system at once for 3-4 months to review a piece that may not be to their taste or work with the equipment they already have.

But all of this is kind of meaningless, in my opinion, unless the question is re-framed to how one should decide to purchase a piece of equipment. What would be great is to see a list of products at various price points. The person looking can then go audition a few items from this list. After auditioning in his home, he can then, and only then, read reviews and speak to friends and dealers about what he likes and dislikes. The reviews and conversations about equipment make much more sense when one has heard the unit. For example, after I heard the CJ 350 and my jaw dropped in amazement, I read all of the reviews and called Jeff to discuss my experiences to confirm my experiences. All of the reviewers had the same experience. The problem with reading reviews - positive or negative - first is that one's opinion is primed and colored prior to experiencing the product. This leads to dumb decisions.

 

[Dreamer]

Jeff, I value your contributions to both this forum, and in your magazine and website. When you publish a review of a piece of gear, there are ALWAYS going to be a few vocal readers who will vehemently disagree with you--some are thoughtful and make passionate and logical arguments, and others are just mud-slinging troublemakers with a closed minded agenda.

You know, as a publisher, that you have to have a pretty thick skin in this business. You seem to hold your own--your opinions are well-thought-out and eloquently written. And I'm sure you know that on these forums, you need to have an even thicker skin because any yahoo with an internet connection can spew forth slander (or praise) instantly--they don't even need to buy a postage stam to reply to forum posts. This sort of raw democracy has good abd bad points, but we all understand where these folks are coming from, and take these flaming responses for what they are.

I have gone back and re-read a lot of Neil's posts, trying to figure out what he is all about. I don't profess yo know or understand him completely through his posts, but I do recognize that Neil often displays those tell-tale signs of McIntoshus Superiorosis--a common malady among McIntosh owners who have bought into the endless torrent of "white papers", spec sheets, and "benchmark tests" that are the core beliefs of the McIntosh universe. I've met several McIntosh owners (and even a few dealers) over the years who were terminally infected with this memetic virus, and honestly believed in their heart of hearts (interestingly enough, with disturbing similarity to some Mercedes Benz owners) that if it wasn't McIntosh, it was crap--end of discussion...

I'm sure Neil likes the sound of his system more than any other system he's heard. I'm also pretty sure that Neil secretly knows his rig MUST be capable of sounding a whole lot better, but just can't understand why, with the power of his beloved McIntosh gear, it is just not as good as the spec's say it should be...

Don't get me wrong- the McIntosh MC275 is a VERY nice amp, and I'm sure in Neil's rig it produced the sound he's looking for. But where Neil is getting into trouble, from a philosophical point of view, is that he is suffering philosophically from the largest and most fundamental flaw in the entirety of modern Western thought, in that he has willing dived into the pool of Descartean dualism, and he simply cannot fathom that the REAL nature of reality is, that it is equally real and unique for each and every one of us, and that there really is no "right and wrong" when it comes to perceptual analysis. If one person LOVES the sound of Amp-A with Speaker-B, and another person thinks it sounds like a pile of dog crap, then unless one of those people has provable hearing damage or is certifiably insane, both their opinions are equally true and valid--FOR THEM...

Apparently they do not teach philosophy, ontology, or logic in the school system any more, and the concept of training people to be well-equipped critical thinkers with a firm grounding in the fundamental thoughts and ideas of philosophy are no longer part of the educational curriculum. Anyone who doesn't know who Descarte, Hegel, Plato, and Aristotle are and what they discussed has NO BUSINESS posting their opinions about perceptual reality, let alone flaming out on other people for their personal opinions...

Neil, I genuinely feel sorry for you. You've bought into the McIntosh Meme, hook, line and sinker. Your system would sound SO much better (and you would be a much happier person) if you opened your mind a little and stepped outside the Mc-compound. There is a big world out there, fella, and it's full of wonderful, amazing, and delightful things. Put away your spec sheets for one minute, and go outside and listen to the birds, the children, and smell a flower or two, bro. Go to a live concert. Put away your pocket protector, and find a little Jazz Cafe some weekend, and listen to REAL PEOPLE playing REAL MUSIC, and just forget about your oscilloscopes and response curve charts and your benchmark tests for a few hours and experience something REAL.

You see, Neil, you aren't really a cranky curmudgeoun because you are surrounded by idiots--you're a cranky curmudgeoun because you have surrounded yourself with a synthetic version of reality, and your SOUL knows that somewhere out there, there has GOT to be a better way.

Free your mind, and your ears will follow...

--Richard

 

[Bernard]

It accomplishes nothing positive relative to purpose and spirit of this Club.

Guys, in the spirit of Gordon Gray's request, may I also request that we do not turn this thread into a Neil-bashing session (even though he inarguably threw the first stone), as it as well is not in keeping with the spirit of this Club. Thanks.

 

[Dreamer]

Does anyone know how much reviewers get paid? Also, how hard does the vendor need to try to get their product reviewed?

Unless said writer is also a shareholder in their publisher's company, I'd venture to say there is not a single reviewer for ANY audio magazine who makes enough money from writing reviews to be able to afford 80% of the gear they gush over. That is why most of the reviewers for these magazines also have "day jobs". (and even then, most of them can't afford ost of the gear they review--the truth is that most of the "high-end" gear out there is just obscenely expensive. Some of it is justifiable because it is truely hand-crafted works of art, but most of it is simply overpriced vanity-stroking drek that sounds no better than stuff 25% it's price)

But if they write good reviews on gear they want, they are guaranteed to get more gear to try from that manufacturer...

Michael Fremmer doesn't count--he inherited most of his wealth, and has most of his gear given to him as "gifts". If he had to work an honest job to feed his audio habit, in my opinion, he's got enough intelligence and skills to put him in a position where he could perhaps afford to be listening to a Crosley turntable...

I find that reviews in magazines--ANY magazine that accepts loaners from manufacturers rather than buying them anonymously through retail dealers--strains credibility, and presents, at the very least, a HUGE temptation toward biased write-ups...

I know what sort of sound I like. I use the reviews to point me toward the herd, but when it comes to "taking down my own trophy", I rely on my own ears 100%.

--Richard

 

[eknuds01]

Jeff, I value your contributions to both this forum, and in your magazine and website. When you publish a review of a piece of gear, there are ALWAYS going to be a few vocal readers who will vehemently disagree with you--some are thoughtful and make passionate and logical arguments, and others are just mud-slinging troublemakers with a closed minded agenda.

You know, as a publisher, that you have to have a pretty thick skin in this business. You seem to hold your own--your opinions are well-thought-out and eloquently written. And I'm sure you know that on these forums, you need to have an even thicker skin because any yahoo with an internet connection can spew forth slander (or praise) instantly--they don't even need to buy a postage stam to reply to forum posts. This sort of raw democracy has good abd bad points, but we all understand where these folks are coming from, and take these flaming responses for what they are.

I have gone back and re-read a lot of Neil's posts, trying to figure out what he is all about. I don't profess yo know or understand him completely through his posts, but I do recognize that Neil often displays those tell-tale signs of McIntoshus Superiorosis--a common malady among McIntosh owners who have bought into the endless torrent of "white papers", spec sheets, and "benchmark tests" that are the core beliefs of the McIntosh universe. I've met several McIntosh owners (and even a few dealers) over the years who were terminally infected with this memetic virus, and honestly believed in their heart of hearts (interestingly enough, with disturbing similarity to some Mercedes Benz owners) that if it wasn't McIntosh, it was crap--end of discussion...

I'm sure Neil likes the sound of his system more than any other system he's heard. I'm also pretty sure that Neil secretly knows his rig MUST be capable of sounding a whole lot better, but just can't understand why, with the power of his beloved McIntosh gear, it is just not as good as the spec's say it should be...

Don't get me wrong- the McIntosh MC275 is a VERY nice amp, and I'm sure in Neil's rig it produced the sound he's looking for. But where Neil is getting into trouble, from a philosophical point of view, is that he is suffering philosophically from the largest and most fundamental flaw in the entirety of modern Western thought, in that he has willing dived into the pool of Descartean dualism, and he simply cannot fathom that the REAL nature of reality is, that it is equally real and unique for each and every one of us, and that there really is no "right and wrong" when it comes to perceptual analysis. If one person LOVES the sound of Amp-A with Speaker-B, and another person thinks it sounds like a pile of dog crap, then unless one of those people has provable hearing damage or is certifiably insane, both their opinions are equally true and valid--FOR THEM...

Apparently they do not teach philosophy, ontology, or logic in the school system any more, and the concept of training people to be well-equipped critical thinkers with a firm grounding in the fundamental thoughts and ideas of philosophy are no longer part of the educational curriculum. Anyone who doesn't know who Descarte, Hegel, Plato, and Aristotle are and what they discussed has NO BUSINESS posting their opinions about perceptual reality, let alone flaming out on other people for their personal opinions...

Neil, I genuinely feel sorry for you. You've bought into the McIntosh Meme, hook, line and sinker. Your system would sound SO much better (and you would be a much happier person) if you opened your mind a little and stepped outside the Mc-compound. There is a big world out there, fella, and it's full of wonderful, amazing, and delightful things. Put away your spec sheets for one minute, and go outside and listen to the birds, the children, and smell a flower or two, bro. Go to a live concert. Put away your pocket protector, and find a little Jazz Cafe some weekend, and listen to REAL PEOPLE playing REAL MUSIC, and just forget about your oscilloscopes and response curve charts and your benchmark tests for a few hours and experience something REAL.

You see, Neil, you aren't really a cranky curmudgeoun because you are surrounded by idiots--you're a cranky curmudgeoun because you have surrounded yourself with a synthetic version of reality, and your SOUL knows that somewhere out there, there has GOT to be a better way.

Free your mind, and your ears will follow...

--Richard

Richard -

You da man.

Erik

 

[tonepub]

At the end of the day, what really is the most important is finding a system that has the perfect balance for YOU. If that's an MC275 or whatever, you are the only one it has to make happy, not me.

As a reviewer, I have the luxury of not only having a first class reference system and a few of my own power amps besides my Premier 350. I also own the MC275 (that I really love with my Harbeth Compact 7-3s), a Pass Aleph, a Prima Luna Prologue 1, a Luxman 590, the RedWine Audio Signature 30, a pair of Bottlehead SET's and a Nagra PSA. These are all amplifiers that I own that I keep around as a reference.

Then there is the usual review pool of amps that can be as high as a dozen.

Marc Phillips who just lives down the street also has about four amps, so when we get a pair of anyone's speakers in for review, we usually give it a try with anywhere from 5 to as many as a dozen different amps.

While we obviously can't use everything, I think we have a good cross section from low powered tube to high powered solid state, so we at least have an idea of how a pair of speakers might respond to different amplification, not just my reference amp.

And as all of you know, there is always that "magic combination" out there that we haven't found yet.

Again, it's about us helping you to find what you will enjoy most. I've got it.

And if you have the awesome system of your dreams, just read TONE for the music. Hopefully, we will help you find some new music to enjoy.

We've just established relationships with all four major labels, so we will be having a lot more new music in all genres coming out on the website, so stay tuned.

 

[risabet]

I find that reviews in magazines--ANY magazine that accepts loaners from manufacturers rather than buying them anonymously through retail dealers--strains credibility, and presents, at the very least, a HUGE temptation toward biased write-ups...
--Richard

The Consumer's Report school of reviews and I disagree. Do you expect Road and Track or Car and Driver to buy every car they review? If so, you wouldn't have many reviews of the Bentley Brooklands.

If audio reviewers had to purchase every piece of gear reviewed in the high-end we wouldn't have reviews of the Caliburns and the Wilsons; Summits and Pass Labs amps or many other high dollar items. The products are obscenely expensive and no one reviewer or a reviewer's cooperative could afford enough gear to give detailed comparisons to the readers of the magazines.

The issue for me is disclosure. As long as I know the item is a manufacturer's loan I don't have an issue with the veracity of the publication if they have earned that trust in the past. Outside of what I see as the misperceptions of many that audio reviewers and mags are in the pockets of the companies, both Stereophile and TAS have earned my loyalty as a reader. That doesn't mean that I agree with all they print, but that I have no basis in fact to question what they report.

 

[tonepub]

What you forget is that it goes the other way as well.

Many times it can be very tempting to write an overly good review of something you own just to feel good about the purchase. And I've seen that happen plenty.

Owning our reference components has also made it a lot easier to get gear from mfrs to review, because they know we take the process seriously and are not just doing this job to get the latest free gear of the month to listen to and support our own hifi habit. We get a product in, we keep it for 2-6 months, write the review, take the pics, send it back.

All of the manufacturers know what gear I have in my system and it's a reference. If something outperforms my reference in a certain area or overall, that's ok, that's what the reference is for.

That happened this issue with the ASR phono stage that has been my reference for two years. I heard two phono preamps I liked better, the new CJ TEA-1 which I can't afford and the Nagra PSR, which is about 90% as good as the CJ for a lot less money. The bottom line is that I like them both more than the ASR and said so in the review.

The other thing you forget about Consumer Reports is that they have a huge PAYING subscriber base that pays the bills. If all 110 thousand people that get TONE for free start paying 10-20 bucks a year, I'll drop the ads tomorrow.

As someone said, it's really about disclosure. Most of the speaker guys know I love my Summits, but I've given their speakers fair, objective reviews (to the best of my abilities) and it's been cool so far.

So much of audio is not about better or worse, it's about different flavors.

And in reference to Neil's other comment about my inability to adequately set equipment up, that's why we have the mfr come out in the first place. It's not so that they get an unfair advantage, it's so that when they leave, they know that their gear is set up properly and to their satisfaction, which is very important in a review.

In over 100 product reviews, I've never had a mfr pull a product out of here because I had a lousy room or a lousy system, so I'm feeling pretty confident at this point.

This is also about disclosure.

I've seen way too many reviews where I took one look at the reviewers setup, read a negative review and then went "well, that combination of gear would never work" Once it's in print, it can be very harmful to a manufacturer.

It's one thing if the mfr. makes a crappy product, but it's completely another thing if I cost someone sales or jobs, because I didn't set their gear up properly and drew the wrong conclusion, don't you think?

I even go as far as to ask a mfr if there is a particular set of cables or whatever that they know their equipment responds to the best. I usually have enough cable from Cardas, Shunyata, Audience, Audioquest and a few others, but if they know a particular cable is not terribly good, I give their suggestion a try and then my references as well so we can pass that info on to you.

Our music editor Ben Fong-Torres always tells me to "make it easier for the reader". If I can let you know about setup on a particular component and it will make your experience easier, I do it.

I hope this also lends a little more insight into how we operate.

 

[amey01]

I hope this also lends a little more insight into how we operate.

As always, yes. It's great having you here too - you're part of us - not a visitor!

Anyway - my view on all this is that I read reviews for interest. Most of the reviews I read are for equipment I couldn't afford. We're interested in audio, and that interest extends to what others think. But it stops there.

Only a fool would let someone else make the decision whether to or not to spend a very large sum of money on a particular component.