Stereophile on CLX: system kicked ass in a way that was difficult to credit to 'stats
- Thread starter David Matz
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Not at all
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I grew up in a tough neighborhood. I am a criminal defense attorney. Frequently I hold the minority opinion. I am a big boy. I can take it.
For example I think cable break in is laughable. I also think the notion that a cartridge should mimic the cutting head is wrong.
Some one will see this. Try different amps. Get better sound from their ML and that will make all the attacks worth while. Indeed I am not so arrogant as to think there are many out there who have not already made the correct amplifier choice. Moreover there are plenty who did not need my help in deciding they need an amp upgrade.
Gregadd
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Poor Greg! You must feel like the nerd in the school yard!
I grew up in a tough neighborhood. I am a criminal defense attorney. Frequently I hold the minority opinion. I am a big boy. I can take it.
For example I think cable break in is laughable. I also think the notion that a cartridge should mimic the cutting head is wrong.
Some one will see this. Try different amps. Get better sound from their ML and that will make all the attacks worth while. Indeed I am not so arrogant as to think there are many out there who have not already made the correct amplifier choice. Moreover there are plenty who did not need my help in deciding they need an amp upgrade.
Gregadd
Greg, I'm going to try and help you out here....... the above sentence makes little sense (and besides that's not what Stereophile said / implied) for the simple fact that when the Bryston's were matched up with the CLX's, in the reviewers 'ears'..... the sound was good ! In other words synergy !
Nobody in their right mind just says such and such amp sounds good, hell, if it makes a noise that's not good !
It's the marriage of amp / speaker that we comment on (and again...I think this is what you're trying to convey)So, again, in the grand scheme of things yes there are folks that may not have the ideal match of amplification for their given M/L's, but these are areas in which ones system evolves. Myself in my three plus years of owning Logans I've 'evolved' my amplification three times to a point that I am very happy with my present set up.
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Don't know
Brian- I do not have the answer to the second part of your question.
Gregadd
Brian- I do not have the answer to the second part of your question.
Gregadd
System is in transition
My most most recent system was Accuphase DP 57, Preamp ARC SP14(modified by Great Norther Sound); VPI Airies II with SME IV and Rosewood Signature and Benz Glider;Moscode 401hr and of Course ML CLS I w DH Labs Power Cord. Cables were Straightwire,river cables modified w WBT connectors. Pair Janis w3 subs w/ 2interphase xovers and amps.
My system is dark right know
My most most recent system was Accuphase DP 57, Preamp ARC SP14(modified by Great Norther Sound); VPI Airies II with SME IV and Rosewood Signature and Benz Glider;Moscode 401hr and of Course ML CLS I w DH Labs Power Cord. Cables were Straightwire,river cables modified w WBT connectors. Pair Janis w3 subs w/ 2interphase xovers and amps.
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I could pass...
I don't see anything wrong here. I think the Pass is a little polite for my taste. I also think the Summits small panel necessitates a high crossover point which makes for a disconnect between the panel and the dynamic driver. Personally I think the Prodigy is a better speaker. IMO the bigger the panel the better.
There. Are you offended enough?
Gregadd
I don't see anything wrong here. I think the Pass is a little polite for my taste. I also think the Summits small panel necessitates a high crossover point which makes for a disconnect between the panel and the dynamic driver. Personally I think the Prodigy is a better speaker. IMO the bigger the panel the better.
There. Are you offended enough?
Gregadd
tonepub
Senior Member
However, the whole reason behind the current Vantage/Spire/Summit speakers with the micro perf technology gives an equivalent output to the older, bigger panels in a smaller space.
quote
"this system kicked ass in a way that was difficult to credit to electrostatics. I suspect the Bryston amps (1000W!) were a major contributor here. I understand that, in typical electrostatic fashion, the impedance of the CLX goes very low in the treble, a characteristics that many amps have trouble dealing with—but not the Brystons."
"this system kicked ass in a way that was difficult to credit to electrostatics. I suspect the Bryston amps (1000W!) were a major contributor here. I understand that, in typical electrostatic fashion, the impedance of the CLX goes very low in the treble, a characteristics that many amps have trouble dealing with—but not the Brystons."
User211
Well-known member
But it fails to give the scale of the older models...
I'll repeat that more accurately. It fails to give the scale (size of presentation of soundstage) of the older hybrids... just pair a Monolith next to a Summit. Same scale? No.........
Then again - a huge soundstage may not be your bag. I like it though - I think it acts as a great lens into a performance.
DTB300
Well-known member
Agreed.....as long as it is realistic and not over accentuated. I do not want to hear Ben Webster at the Renaissance sound like he is playing in the Kennedy Center Symphony Hall.
If you have not heard it...
Since this seems the most popular line of attack for the "if it sounds good to me it's ok camp"
If you have not heard my system you can't comment.
Let's consider brand name recognition. Over the years I have test driven a lot of BMW's and Mercedes Benz. I've ridden with friends in their Mercedes and BMW. I've read reviews in the car magazines. I've driven and owned lots of cars. A friend comes to me and says "should I buy a Mercedes or BMW or neither." The two particular models he is considering I have never driven. But I am familiar with the basic car design of the two brand names.
Could I give a valid opinion that these cars are more than most people need? Yes.
They are buying the car based on prestige and not their transportation requirements. Indeed that they are choosing the wrong car for the type of passengers and cargo they carry and terrain they will be driving. That they could get a car more suited to their needs for less money.
Based on what I know could I say most people are driving the wrong car for their needs. That their decision was an emotional one. ( I happen to believe that. myself included) I may be wrong, but certainly not "silly". Even if right they have no obligation to pay any attention to me.
It would be impossible to listen to all the permutations of equipment available. But given that I am familiar with the sound of certain brand names. I can make an educated guess as to how they will sound together.
Reviewers do it all the time. As a matter of fact members of this forum have done it. How many of us return form a show or audition and say the following:" I know that's a great speaker but it sounded horrible. It must have been the associated equipment or the room."
I can't help but think if you guys were really that happy with sound of your system you would not have been so offended.
Gregadd:
Since this seems the most popular line of attack for the "if it sounds good to me it's ok camp"
If you have not heard my system you can't comment.
Let's consider brand name recognition. Over the years I have test driven a lot of BMW's and Mercedes Benz. I've ridden with friends in their Mercedes and BMW. I've read reviews in the car magazines. I've driven and owned lots of cars. A friend comes to me and says "should I buy a Mercedes or BMW or neither." The two particular models he is considering I have never driven. But I am familiar with the basic car design of the two brand names.
Could I give a valid opinion that these cars are more than most people need? Yes.
They are buying the car based on prestige and not their transportation requirements. Indeed that they are choosing the wrong car for the type of passengers and cargo they carry and terrain they will be driving. That they could get a car more suited to their needs for less money.
Based on what I know could I say most people are driving the wrong car for their needs. That their decision was an emotional one. ( I happen to believe that. myself included) I may be wrong, but certainly not "silly". Even if right they have no obligation to pay any attention to me.
It would be impossible to listen to all the permutations of equipment available. But given that I am familiar with the sound of certain brand names. I can make an educated guess as to how they will sound together.
Reviewers do it all the time. As a matter of fact members of this forum have done it. How many of us return form a show or audition and say the following:" I know that's a great speaker but it sounded horrible. It must have been the associated equipment or the room."
I can't help but think if you guys were really that happy with sound of your system you would not have been so offended.
Gregadd
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
I don't see anything wrong here. I think the Pass is a little polite for my taste. I also think the Summits small panel necessitates a high crossover point which makes for a disconnect between the panel and the dynamic driver. Personally I think the Prodigy is a better speaker. IMO the bigger the panel the better.
There. Are you offended enough?
Gregadd
Hi Greg,
Thanks for your analysis.
Offended? Nope.
But I really did enjoy Karmac the Magnificent when JC was still alive and hosting TTS.
I do wonder though why you are saying what you are saying, with apparently a high degree of self confidence, absent any personal experience of what my system (or anyone else's for that matter) actually sounds like in my (or their) room.
Quite amazing I must admit.
GG
PS I just reread your last post. Second line "if you haven't heard my system, you can't comment". Please to reconcile your observation on my system, which is not accurate, with your statement cited above.
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tonepub
Senior Member
But it fails to give the scale of the older models...
I'll repeat that more accurately. It fails to give the scale (size of presentation of soundstage) of the older hybrids... just pair a Monolith next to a Summit. Same scale? No.........
Then again - a huge soundstage may not be your bag. I like it though - I think it acts as a great lens into a performance.
Once again, you make it up as you go. I've heard Monoliths plenty of times. I prefer the new speaker. I have some pretty major soundstaging going on right now. Even the folks at ML that have listened to my system have told me that they've never heard the CLX sound that good, so I'm pretty confident I'm on to something.
I think you just like to argue. It's only right if it's something you have, you own, or you've discovered.
"absent any personal experience of what my system (or anyone else's for that matter) actually sounds like in my (or their) room."
IS THAT AN INVITATION? I'VE NEVER BEEN TO WYOMING.
If you read my post more carefully you'll see I never gave an opinion on your system.
I did give an opinion on the Pass amp and the Summit. I don't think I have to come to Wyoming for that.
Gregadd
IS THAT AN INVITATION? I'VE NEVER BEEN TO WYOMING.
If you read my post more carefully you'll see I never gave an opinion on your system.
I did give an opinion on the Pass amp and the Summit. I don't think I have to come to Wyoming for that.
Gregadd
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Greg,
You are more than welcome to come visit. This applies to yourself as well as other MLC members. I will make arrangements and provide recommends as appropriate. I love to play host having lived here for some 36 years.
Prime time (good weather and few tourists) is September, after the Labor day holiday.
IMHO, everyone should visit Yellowstone National Park at least one time in their lives. The south entrance is about 45 minutes away from Jackson. Absent the other attractions, it's quite amazing how the Park has recovered from the 1988 fires. Mother Nature is quite remarkable.
Chow.
PS Greg, I forgot to mention that I had the CLS2A's and the original Moscode 300 in one of my previous systems for some four (4) years and have fond memories of that combination.
Gordon
You are more than welcome to come visit. This applies to yourself as well as other MLC members. I will make arrangements and provide recommends as appropriate. I love to play host having lived here for some 36 years.
Prime time (good weather and few tourists) is September, after the Labor day holiday.
IMHO, everyone should visit Yellowstone National Park at least one time in their lives. The south entrance is about 45 minutes away from Jackson. Absent the other attractions, it's quite amazing how the Park has recovered from the 1988 fires. Mother Nature is quite remarkable.
Chow.
PS Greg, I forgot to mention that I had the CLS2A's and the original Moscode 300 in one of my previous systems for some four (4) years and have fond memories of that combination.
Gordon
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I'll try
An invite? you really are not offended.
I would like to accept an invite. But I've stood up so many any audiophiles. I need to go to Texas, Mexico, San Francisco,and Richmond,Va. (Richmond is in driving distance.)
My birthday is in September maybe I can get some time off. Anyway it's almost impossible to get me on an airplane. :music:
The moscode was a great amp although the 402au is altogether different.
I'll contact you in the summer one way or the other.
Gregadd
An invite? you really are not offended.
I would like to accept an invite. But I've stood up so many any audiophiles. I need to go to Texas, Mexico, San Francisco,and Richmond,Va. (Richmond is in driving distance.)
My birthday is in September maybe I can get some time off. Anyway it's almost impossible to get me on an airplane. :music:
The moscode was a great amp although the 402au is altogether different.
I'll contact you in the summer one way or the other.
Gregadd
radicalsteve
Active member
amp synergies
Hi Jeff,
just to help me understand - what amps are you using to drive your speakers. I have just acquired a apir of reQuests and tried my Spectron MIII Mk 2's in bridged mode, each 'channel' driving both bass and panel versus horizontal mode configuration. The bridged Spectrons put out 3000 watt peak into 0.1 ohm. I believe the stereo mode puts out 500 watt peak. There is no comparison .... bridged mode is way better. Now, this is true for any speaker I tried with these amps, not just the ML's, as I have done this config change on a couple of dynamic driver speakers models as well. Nevertheless, driving the ML's demonstrated the difference much more obviously than the same comparison with other speakers. All of this is to say that until you try the system synergy, it is all just hypothetical and real life listening tells the truth, but so far I get the impression that the ML's show up small variances more than conventional dynamic driver speakers. I should ad that one of my comparisons was with dipole speakers.
I heard the CLX's in Montreal and fell in love (again) but I also heard the sonic signature of the Bryston amps at the same time and so I could make a choice on amplifier synergy as well. For the record, the Bryston amps are great products, but personally, I would not choose to match them with the CLX's. Hope that is not too opinionated - just my perspective.
Steve
Hi Jeff,
just to help me understand - what amps are you using to drive your speakers. I have just acquired a apir of reQuests and tried my Spectron MIII Mk 2's in bridged mode, each 'channel' driving both bass and panel versus horizontal mode configuration. The bridged Spectrons put out 3000 watt peak into 0.1 ohm. I believe the stereo mode puts out 500 watt peak. There is no comparison .... bridged mode is way better. Now, this is true for any speaker I tried with these amps, not just the ML's, as I have done this config change on a couple of dynamic driver speakers models as well. Nevertheless, driving the ML's demonstrated the difference much more obviously than the same comparison with other speakers. All of this is to say that until you try the system synergy, it is all just hypothetical and real life listening tells the truth, but so far I get the impression that the ML's show up small variances more than conventional dynamic driver speakers. I should ad that one of my comparisons was with dipole speakers.
I heard the CLX's in Montreal and fell in love (again) but I also heard the sonic signature of the Bryston amps at the same time and so I could make a choice on amplifier synergy as well. For the record, the Bryston amps are great products, but personally, I would not choose to match them with the CLX's. Hope that is not too opinionated - just my perspective.
Steve
First of all, I think this is a poor analogy. People choose cars for lots of reasons other than to meet their basic "needs." But honestly, what you said was closer to: Most Mercedes owner's cars drive like crap because they use the wrong tires instead of the correct aftermarket tires that they need to perform their best. And you would make this overbroad generalization based on never having actually driven these types of cars with the tires in question. Do you see what I mean? Yes, you have an opinion. But no, you haven't provided any reasoning to give your opinion any validity.
And, not surprisingly, I disagree with your assessment about BMW's and Mercedes too. Could I get by with a Ford Focus? Sure. But nothing quite compares to the satisfaction of operating well-engineered machinery, and those two brands offer some of the best available automotive engineering in their price ranges from my experience. Too much car for my needs? I think not.
Educated guess? No. More like utter speculation. Because it completely fails to take into account the room, the other associated components and the synergies between them, and the preferences of the listener. It is a complete guess based on unreliable historical memories of what a different component manufactured by the same company sounded like in a completely different room in a completely different system.
And since your comment was that MOST ML owners have horrible sound based on their amp choices, it would appear that you are speculating that just about every major amp manufacturer produces equipment that is sub-par for Martin Logan speakers. I guess you don't like the "house sound" of most all of the amp manufacturers. Because I see a pretty wide diversity of manufacturers represented among ML owners.
What makes you think that I am offended? Because I called your BS statement for what it was? No offense taken, I assure you. But I will always call out what I believe to be BS when I see it. That's just the way I am. And yes, I am quite happy with the sound of both of my current systems. Not that I wouldn't kill for a larger room and a pair of CLX, but then we always want that which we don't have, don't we?
By the way, I actually have been out to visit Gordon Gray and listen to his system. I can attest that he is a wonderful host and a genuinely great person, and his system not only sounds awesome, but has one of the best views I have ever had the enjoyment of experiencing with my music. I highly recommend you visit with him if you are ever out that way.
You disagree, So what!
I stand by my position. You have done little more than state your opinion. No one has produced any shred of proof that I am wrong. If most of the the owners of martin logan owners want the best ML has to offer they are going to have to upgrade. Unfortunately I have heard far to many bad ML systems. That's the price you pay for transparency.
I wish I could travel the country with a truck full of amps spreading them to t ml owners like Johnny Appleseed.
I've said all I have to say on this subject.
My choice of amp is clear. It is not the only amp for ML. It is probably not the best. It does produce beautiful music.
If you want to get on board fine. If not, catch the next bus or stay on the current bus.
Enjoy the music
Gregadd:co
I stand by my position. You have done little more than state your opinion. No one has produced any shred of proof that I am wrong. If most of the the owners of martin logan owners want the best ML has to offer they are going to have to upgrade. Unfortunately I have heard far to many bad ML systems. That's the price you pay for transparency.
I wish I could travel the country with a truck full of amps spreading them to t ml owners like Johnny Appleseed.
I've said all I have to say on this subject.
My choice of amp is clear. It is not the only amp for ML. It is probably not the best. It does produce beautiful music.
If you want to get on board fine. If not, catch the next bus or stay on the current bus.
Enjoy the music
Gregadd:co
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Actually, I would argue that the existence of this forum is proof enough that you are wrong. If most folks were getting horrible sound because they had the wrong amplifier, would we really have a whole forum of hundreds of people dedicated to the awesome sound we are getting from our ML's? I also notice that not one single person here lent any credence to your idea. Since this forum is filled with experienced audiophiles, I think that is another pretty good indication of the validity of your thesis (or lack thereof).
