Stereophile on CLX: system kicked ass in a way that was difficult to credit to 'stats
- Thread starter David Matz
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tonepub
Senior Member
I've actually always been impressed with the really decent systems I've seen on this forum. Much better than most!
Ahem. Excuse me!
And that's why you are so much more popular than I am.(not the only reason)
I must admit I have repeatedly viewed the entire list of systems in the members section and the entire post by Robin. Sometimes I am impressed. Sometimes I cringe.
I was lucky to hear a well set up CLS system the first time I heard ML. If I had heard some of the awful combos I would never have become an ML fan.
The biggest offender is the myth that because ML has a wicked impedance curb, you have to have some solid state beast to drive it.
gregadd
And that's why you are so much more popular than I am.(not the only reason)
I must admit I have repeatedly viewed the entire list of systems in the members section and the entire post by Robin. Sometimes I am impressed. Sometimes I cringe.
I was lucky to hear a well set up CLS system the first time I heard ML. If I had heard some of the awful combos I would never have become an ML fan.
The biggest offender is the myth that because ML has a wicked impedance curb, you have to have some solid state beast to drive it.
gregadd
The biggest offender is the myth that because ML has a wicked impedance curb, you have to have some solid state beast to drive it.
gregadd
The truth is the impedence curve it less of an issue (low dip is damn near out of the range of audibility and at an area of limited energy demand) whereas the capacitence nature of our panels and their subsequent behavior as it imparts a greater need for an amplifiers current / stability capabilities.
Now, with all the above being said I have not only looked at but also have had the good fortune of listening to some mighty fine sounding Members Systems on this forum.
IMO, and I'm sure others will agree with me, areas of room acoustics are a bigger issue.
tonepub
Senior Member
I think the hardest thing to remember is that everyone hears differently, so the amp I don't like, might be the thing that really makes someone else happy.
And I'm very fortunate that I get to sample as much as I do, but that didn't stop me when I wasn't in the industry... I spent every dime I could on hifi but I admit I'm more obsessed than most.
Always plenty to explore!
And I'm very fortunate that I get to sample as much as I do, but that didn't stop me when I wasn't in the industry... I spent every dime I could on hifi but I admit I'm more obsessed than most.
Always plenty to explore!
tonepub
Senior Member
I'm with you there. Granted, ML's benefit from good gear, they really benefit from proper setup and the right room...
Bernard
Well-known member
Very true, but not just amplifier-wise. I recently listened to a relative's (non-ML) system, and found that it sounded harsh on top. She had the treble on her receiver turned up, such that I found it unlistenable, but then it occurred to me that perhaps she has hearing loss in the highs. When she reduced the treble boost it sounded fine to me but unacceptable to her. She could not hear what I considered glassy highs when the treble was boosted.
Brian Walsh
Well-known member
Forgive me for asking, but what does the impedance curve of MLs (let's say Summits) look like? How many step-up transformers are used?
The basis for this statement would be?
So you have listened to the systems of "most ML owners"? . . . or you just know through your own superior knowledge of audio what all of this gear sounds like in these individual rooms when matched up with ML? Sorry, but making an overly broad statement that "most" ML owners have horrible sound because they don't use your favorite amps is both pretentious and ill-informed. If you haven't heard the setup, you simply don't have any idea what it sounds like.
Now I would agree with you that plenty of folks do use poor equipment to drive their ML's. But I think most of the people that can afford ML's are intelligent enough to drive them with at least some decent equipment. And I would disagree with you on the idea that high powered solid state amps can't drive ML's sublimely.
I have Sanders Monoblocs, a Pass Labs X-350.5, and a Conrad Johnson Premier 140 tube amp, and they ALL sound sublime (but each has its own unique sound signature). I have also heard ML's driven by high powered Krell amps and they sounded incredible. Likewise, I have heard them with a low-powered jolida tube amp and it sounded pretty darn good (not my cup of tea, that particular combination, but still not bad). Different strokes for different folks. But to suggest that most ML owners aren't getting the full benefit of their speakers and have horrible sound because of their amp choice is just silly.
The emperor has no clothes...
I knew that comment would get me into trouble.
Allowing that everyone's opinion is valid means the emperor walks around naked and everyone else has to look at his nude body and delude themselves into thinking he has beautiful clothes. Someone had to point out he was naked. As risky and unpopular as that opinion is.
My opinion is "silly"? Why? Because you hold a different one?
That's your argument. I must be wrong because you are right?
Can we at least agree on some ground rules?
Amplifiers do sound different.
Some amplifiers and some speakers represent a mismatch.
Some amplifiers are better than others.
Some amplifiers mate better with ml than others.
ML transparency will make the wrong amplifier choice painfully obvious. Since most of us can't or will not purchase an all out design, system synergy is essential.
Forutnately there are a lot of amps that will adequately drive the ML.
Remember this thread started out because Stereophile believed it was Bryston sounding good and not the ML.
If we all made the right choice of amplifier then let's just post a picture of our system and call it a day.
Indeed if I can be even more obnoxious some have a need to change their entire list of associated components. I continue my search.
Gregadd
I knew that comment would get me into trouble.
Allowing that everyone's opinion is valid means the emperor walks around naked and everyone else has to look at his nude body and delude themselves into thinking he has beautiful clothes. Someone had to point out he was naked. As risky and unpopular as that opinion is.
My opinion is "silly"? Why? Because you hold a different one?
That's your argument. I must be wrong because you are right?
Can we at least agree on some ground rules?
Amplifiers do sound different.
Some amplifiers and some speakers represent a mismatch.
Some amplifiers are better than others.
Some amplifiers mate better with ml than others.
ML transparency will make the wrong amplifier choice painfully obvious. Since most of us can't or will not purchase an all out design, system synergy is essential.
Forutnately there are a lot of amps that will adequately drive the ML.
Remember this thread started out because Stereophile believed it was Bryston sounding good and not the ML.
If we all made the right choice of amplifier then let's just post a picture of our system and call it a day.
Indeed if I can be even more obnoxious some have a need to change their entire list of associated components. I continue my search.
Gregadd
Brian Walsh
Well-known member
Thanks. The falling impedance below 900 Hz is unusual for an ESL - the falling impedance above 1 kHz is much more what I expected. Why is that? Do all MLs exhibit such impedance curves? And repeating my earlier question, how many step-up transformers are used?
wallacefl
Well-known member
I use a Bryston 14BSST to drive my CLSZ2s...had tried MAC, Mark L, Sunfire....none provided the resolution the Bryston does. Dry Bass...probably but I would not own the CLS without using my sub(ACI Saturn with SV-12 woofer/Oaudio amp) which really provides the foundation to these speakers. I too thought this amp design would have trouble with the impedence but there is so little going on at the top of the range that it has never been an issue in actual use....could not be happier driving it with my Benchmark Pre-1...but if I want to get warm and fuzzy I just hook up the modded AR LS-7:music:
It is silly because you profess to know the sound of "most" ML owners' systems even though you have never heard them, based solely on their choice of amplifier. You make an all-encompassing negative assessment of people's systems which you have never heard and base it on nothing but your own blind speculation of amplifier synergy with ML's.
If you can't see why that is a silly statement to make, then nothing I can say will change your mind. Your statement pretty well speaks for itself. I seriously doubt you are going to get anyone backing you up on that one.
And I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that "everyone's opinion is valid." Everyone certainly has a right to voice their opinion, but just stating it does not mean it has validity in context. Unless it is based on firsthand knowledge and experience, reasoning, and factual data, it has very little validity.
I may hold the opinion that Burmester gear sucks, but if I have never heard it then that opinion is simply not valid. It is mere speculation. And you will notice that I didn't state an opinion on the sound of anyone's equipment but my own and those that I have personally listened to.
I am running my Quests with a brand new Bryston 4B-SST/2 (squared series) that I received yesterday. It replaced an older 4B-ST.
BIG difference in sound let me tell you! The amp gets barely warm whereas my ST would get pretty hot. Obviously they have thought about an amp that is much more speaker friendly. I am registered at 585 watts/ch in 4 ohms! Don't think it will have too much trouble!!!
The new "square" series has fixed a lot of issues in the top end and I can vouch that my Quests sound amazing right now. I had some friends over last night and one of them owns a new YBA Passion 1000 series system with B and W speakers worth 14000$ and he was amazed and I think a little embarassed at my more modest priced system. I think that system synergy is really important and also the room itself. I can say that his room is not very good for the system he has and I told him that he should build a more dedicated area for his system.
One thing with the new Bryston square series is now that they have tuned the high end, their wonderful and powerful bass makes the hybrid system much more workable. It is all a matter of opinion and trial and error I suppose but we all hear things differently and have various tastes so to say one is better than the other is somewhat irrelevant.
BIG difference in sound let me tell you! The amp gets barely warm whereas my ST would get pretty hot. Obviously they have thought about an amp that is much more speaker friendly. I am registered at 585 watts/ch in 4 ohms! Don't think it will have too much trouble!!!
The new "square" series has fixed a lot of issues in the top end and I can vouch that my Quests sound amazing right now. I had some friends over last night and one of them owns a new YBA Passion 1000 series system with B and W speakers worth 14000$ and he was amazed and I think a little embarassed at my more modest priced system. I think that system synergy is really important and also the room itself. I can say that his room is not very good for the system he has and I told him that he should build a more dedicated area for his system.
One thing with the new Bryston square series is now that they have tuned the high end, their wonderful and powerful bass makes the hybrid system much more workable. It is all a matter of opinion and trial and error I suppose but we all hear things differently and have various tastes so to say one is better than the other is somewhat irrelevant.
Bernard
Well-known member
Rich, to underscore your point, a quote from Ivor Tiefenbrunn is appropriate:
"If you have not heard it, you do not have an opinion".
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
0 to 10?
Hi Greg,
Based on my system components and on a scale of 0 (sound really sucks) to 10 (sounds really good), how would you rate the sound of my system?
GG
Hi Greg,
Based on my system components and on a scale of 0 (sound really sucks) to 10 (sounds really good), how would you rate the sound of my system?
GG
tonepub
Senior Member
I like the Simaudio. Just can't agree the the Byston is dry. I can say that neither is the best amp for ML. I already voted for the moscode.:music:
Indeed amplifier choice is critical for ML. I lament that most ML owners really have the wrong amp and have never heard what the speaker is capable of reproducing.
Gregadd
So just curious, after all this bantering, what are you listening to...
Is your system listed? Always interested in what peoples perceptions are vs. what they listen to...
DTB300
Well-known member
Do NOT forget a picture, as a system description without a PICTURE really does not tell us how it sounds:ROFL: LOL
