I just purchased a Squeezebox Duet and am really enjoying the Internet radio and access to my music files on my computer. I have a few questions. First if I were to buy a Squeezebox touch can I use the Duet's remote with it? Would anything prevent both the Duet receiver and Touch being used on separate systems (not at the same time) with the same remote? I'd like to try a DAC with them something between $500.00 to $1000.00 used I'm thinking possibly a Benchmark DAC1 or PS audio digital link III. I've seen a lot of these for sale as of late which scares me a little are they still good choices or are there better ones out there for the money?
Squeezebox/DAC advice
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tsv_1
Well-known member
wallacefl
Well-known member
I use a Benchmark with my Squeezebox...very clean sound.
The W4S dac2 has been getting some stellar reviews. This product was designed by Rick Cullen - the same designer for ps audio I do believe.
Soundstage.com had an excellent review where they compare it to the benchmark dac1 and a meridian cd player. Reviewer said it trumped the benchmark via USB and coax / and it is a high quality USB where the comparison to the coax was a negligible difference. The meridian had more dynamics but the dac2 was more refined in other areas per the reviewer. Pretty awesome sounding I think considering the numerous connections, quality USB, ability to handle 192khz hi res files, plus a volume control.
I'm sold!! Now I have to get the $$$. Oh yeah I am getting a bonus in april! Heheeeyyy!
Soundstage.com had an excellent review where they compare it to the benchmark dac1 and a meridian cd player. Reviewer said it trumped the benchmark via USB and coax / and it is a high quality USB where the comparison to the coax was a negligible difference. The meridian had more dynamics but the dac2 was more refined in other areas per the reviewer. Pretty awesome sounding I think considering the numerous connections, quality USB, ability to handle 192khz hi res files, plus a volume control.
I'm sold!! Now I have to get the $$$. Oh yeah I am getting a bonus in april! Heheeeyyy!
tsv_1
Well-known member
Good choice. You will love it! Let me know if you have any Qs about it as I've had mine for about a month now.
Cheers
TomDac
former MLO owner/operator
I'm using the PS Audio Digital Link III Dac and really like it.
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/digital-link-3-dac?cat=audio
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/digital-link-3-dac?cat=audio
Hey Todd the reviews say it needs a lot of burn in. Have u noticed any changes. Secondly - how are you connecting up? Any comparisons before and after you used it? Ie did you use anything for a baseline in comparison? Not sure if you posted on this prior. As I said I have seen very favorable reviews vs the benchmark , psaudio dacIII, and a comment vs a modded dacIII by Cullen. I can't imagine
him creating a new dac and not trying to improve on his modded daciii.
I would be going from a denon 5900 (using my analog outs) to just using it as a transport. Any comments or opinions on this move by anyone would be appreciated
Spike
Well-known member
Go with USB-capable DAC
With the recent refinement of asynchronous USB interface, you should really consider a USB capable DAC in order to maximize your investment in the future. Technically speaking, asynchronous USB is superior to SPDIF in terms of eliminating jitter. Recently, there are lots of movements to audiophile quality music server units to interface with USB DACs. At the top of my list, I am allocating funds for a Mach2 Music Server (or an Auraliti PK-USB) + W4S DAC2. There are more expensive asynchronous USB DACs on the market, but I cannot see myself splurging more $$$ than the W4S DAC2.
Spike
With the recent refinement of asynchronous USB interface, you should really consider a USB capable DAC in order to maximize your investment in the future. Technically speaking, asynchronous USB is superior to SPDIF in terms of eliminating jitter. Recently, there are lots of movements to audiophile quality music server units to interface with USB DACs. At the top of my list, I am allocating funds for a Mach2 Music Server (or an Auraliti PK-USB) + W4S DAC2. There are more expensive asynchronous USB DACs on the market, but I cannot see myself splurging more $$$ than the W4S DAC2.
Spike
churchill
Well-known member
Good reviews of both W4S DAC1 and DAC2! I own the DAC2 and love it! It replaced my PS Audio Digital Link III.
tsv_1
Well-known member
Hi Tim,
I may have committed a minor breach of audio etiquette in that my 2-chan system is almost entirely made up of new components from over the last 60 to 90 days. So it's tough to say just what is breaking in and to what degree relative to all the other components. As such, my baseline is virtually non-existent. But hey, that's how I roll
I can tell you that I was running my Olive 04HD analog outs directly to my PL Dialogue pre and the sound was good, in fact, I thought it was exceptional. But I knew I could do better. So I installed the DAC2 (via digital coax) from the Olive, and I ran the DAC2 analog outs to a second set of inputs on my pre. This allowed for instantaneous comparison. EVERYTHING about the DAC2 was better than the Olive. The bass was markedly tighter, the sound seemed to have more presence - crisper with better transients, but in no way unpleasant (i.e. pending break-in). I cycle through audio equipment at a sometimes alarming rate. If I don't like a component, out it goes. I really like the DAC2 and it will be staying in my system for a long time (i.e. at least a year, or maybe two). Will also say that the entire system seems to be improving each and every day. How much of that is actual component break-in versus me acclimatizing to the newness is, well, difficult to quantify.
In the past, I've favored minimal signal-path arrangements, and this has meant omitting any pre-amp, finding a high-quality source (with integrated volume control e.g. Mac MCD301, Shanling SACD, Wadia, etc)... to that end, I've never owned an outboard DAC, so again in keeping with the theme of my commentary here, my experience is entirely useless wrt addressing your questions.... sorry!
In the end, I went for the DAC2 for the same reasons you seem to be gravitating toward it as well. I wanted to keep the expense under $2K and I wanted the latest and greatest DAC technology - engineered by a respected industry expert (i.e. Cullin). For me, there really was no other choice.
Hope this summary wasn't a complete waist of your time
tsv_1
Well-known member
Based on what I've read, SPDIF streams are handled with much better jitter tolerance than ever before (reading up on the new SABRE DAC)... to the point where any audible differences between SPDIF and asynch USB are trivial at best. But I wholeheartedly agree that as things shift further toward USB (and other non-SPDIF transport protocols), it's a very good idea to get a DAC that can handle USB. That was one of the reasons I chose the DAC2 (i.e. reuse with other sources, but perhaps more practically, resale value)
Cheers
User211
Well-known member
I just bought a MF V-Link Asnyc USB to SPDIF converter. If it seems worth a mention when I get it I will say so. I have an old M- Audio Transit doing the work at the mo.
Todd. No waste of my time at all. You are right my mindset is the same as yours. I'm guessing the olive dac is no slouch.
In the review I read he said the USB and coax were very close. The USB he said had a more laid back top end which some folks might call more natural but the reviewer said he preferred the coax. Basically a system synergypersonal pref thing.
In the review I read he said the USB and coax were very close. The USB he said had a more laid back top end which some folks might call more natural but the reviewer said he preferred the coax. Basically a system synergypersonal pref thing.
Spike
Well-known member
I completely disagree with this point. In a very simplisitc view, SPDIF interface requires 2 clock sources to sync up in order to retrieve data. The tolerance between these 2 clocks may be minimized but cannot be completely eliminated. Async USB interface is a 2-way interface where the DAC can "tell" the source to "pause" (or "slow down") if the DAC's buffer is filling up too fast. This is usually implemented in as proprietary USB drivers to be installed at the computer side. This driver is included with the W4S DAC2 for example. I've compared SPDIF and Async USB DAC using a Mac Mini feeding into a W4S DAC2 at a friend's house and the difference is startling! Basically, the Mac Mini is connected using both SPDIF and USB to the W4S DAC2. All we did was to switch back and forth between these 2 interfaces. Specific to this experiment, the difference was realized during the transition (back) from SPDIF to USB. For this SPDIF->USB->SPDIF experiment, we found that we could not live without the USB interface. Given that you have the W4S DAC2, you should try this experiment and see for yourself.
PS. This is the main trigger leading me to consider the Mach2 Music server + W4S DAC2 combination.
Spike
Last edited:
tsv_1
Well-known member
Hi Spike,
It's my understanding from the following excerpt that traditional data extraction from SPDIF is set aside in favor of this delay-element solution which is designed to circumvent typical SPDIF jitter issues. The ability for this dejittering circuit to accommodate significant random and periodic jitter is significant (i.e. 50ns and 200ns respectively).
That said, your direct a/b comparison is important and has clearly impacted your buying decision. In my case, the Olive server was a personal choice and I wanted to find a well engineered DAC that would compliment it. The DAC2 works for me in this instance... and apparently several professional reviewers seem to feel it's SPDIF performance is excellent as well. Be that as it may, I wish you all the best with your Server/DAC decisions.
Cheers
<><><>
Because the Sabre is an 8-channel part, today's standalone converters run dual-differential circuit topologies with paralleled DACs. There are two DACs per phase per channel (8 total) whereby each of those 8 DACs is fully balanced unto itself. This configuration allows for better than 132dB of dynamic range. On clock recovery, "the S/PDIF interface is more complex than the DSD and I²S since it must first derive the embedded clock in the bi-phase encoded data. In fact, experience with many forms of S/PDIF decoders suggest that most fail in the presence of high jitter due to the lack of robustness in the clock recovery process. To avoid this potential problem, the Sabre S/PDIF interface avoids having to extract the clock at all. Decoding is done using a method that does not require an explicit measure of the clock frequency.
"Specifically, the digital input is first corrected for 50% duty cycle by means of a discrete digital delay line that is able to delay either the positive edge or the negative edge of the signal such that after this delay line the signal is at 50% duty cycle. Thereafter an assessment is made of the width of each pulse based on its relation to recently seen pulse widths and a decision circuit assigns each a width of 1, 2 or 3 units. A state machine then operates on the assigned widths in succession. This state machine is searching for the block boundaries and the bit states. The state machine makes no attempt to re-time or otherwise decode the clock – it simply time stamps the event and passes it to the downstream processor. Using this method, the S/PDIF interface is able to accommodate 50nS of random jitter and 200nS of sinusoidal jitter in the incoming data."
I spoke with W4S about this and they were non commital on I2S/USB versus SPDIF. Thats why I'm testing both.
I am not an expert on this by any strecth so apologies for any misstatements in advance. If you go to Computer Audiophile, there is a thriving debate on this issue both wrt to the Dac 2 as well as in general with other DACs. To oversimplify a complex debate, I feel the I2S/USB solution is technically simpler, shorter signal path but needs more tinkering and is sensitive to the hardware and software being used, and perhaps even the cable. The SPDIF solution is more complex, longer signal path, 2 additional clock events. But it is less sensitive to the hardware (since the DAC2 reclocks), more plug-n-play and the new chips and reclockers have reduced jitter issues substantially.
I use Sonos and I liked the elegance of W4S' most recent innovation. Bypass the SPDIF entirely and take an I2S signal directly from the board to an I2S input on the DAC - kind of like a USB signal path does but even better (i think). I am curious about testing the SONOs with an I2S output compared to the best, most jitter-free SPDIF output. W4S is equally curous about what I find and have asked me to document and send them a report. They think the I2S (and by extraploation USB) solution is logically superior but they dont have the field data to validate that (yet)
Well I think I'm going to go with the PS Audio digital link III you can pic one up for a good price. I figure it would be a good place to start if I'm not satisfied I can keep looking.
From what I have read elsewhere the duet controller will work on the touch which if I got one is important because I do a good bit of my listening from 30 to 40 feet away from the receiver.
I do have another question. Has anybody had both the Duet and the Touch and is there a considerable difference between them sound quality wise going through the digital output into a DAC.
From what I have read elsewhere the duet controller will work on the touch which if I got one is important because I do a good bit of my listening from 30 to 40 feet away from the receiver.
I do have another question. Has anybody had both the Duet and the Touch and is there a considerable difference between them sound quality wise going through the digital output into a DAC.
Hocky
Well-known member
Technically speaking, there should be no difference (except for higher res files).
just an fyi -- on the controller for the squeezebox -- if you have an itouch/iphone... they have an app for the squeezebox from a company called ipeng. costs 9.99....and gives you a very nice interface. I have only heard that the internal dac on the touch is better...have not heard anything about any diffs going to an external DAC... I would think there should be none.
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