Webinattor
Well-known member
How come we are tilting our speakers when they are not manufactured straight up?
Speaker positioning, observation
- Thread starter Gordon
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Brian_74
Well-known member
Thanks Lee. This is exactly what I needed. There's a 0.5" difference so the 2" Oregon spikes will work perfectly with my 1.5" spikes. Time to place an order and give this a try
DTB300
Well-known member
Tilt of the panel along with toe-in/toe-out can affect the sound from the panels. It is a great cheap way to do a minor tweak of the sound coming from your panels.
Some like them 90 degree, some like them tilted back more. Experiment and try for yourself to see, if you hear a difference, and which you like best.
I’m firmly in the ‘perfectly vertical’ 90 degree angle to the floor alignment camp for the following reasons:
By having the line-source radiate straight into the room, fewer room effects are engaged as there is no ceiling or floor reflection. This potentially makes room treatments and speaker positioning easier.
A tilted panel’s sound will eventually hit the ceiling, reflect off the back wall and come back at you. This might be OK or it might be bad, depending on room shapes and distances. It also can potentially excite certain room modes that a 90 degree design would not.
Most 90 degree design raise the panels so their tops are at 72”, which means one hears pretty much the same thing whether sitting or standing. This is more pleasing for me.
When deployed in a home theater with multilevel seating, the taller units with vertical panels cover both rows, with differing heights much better. This is a big plus for me, as I have a multilevel seating arrangement in my HT.
BTW- all first gen speakers and the Statements are all 90 degree designs because they were not trying to meet size and height constraints. The tilt had to be introduced as the newer designs were being made shorter, but with ESL’s having such a directed radiation pattern, they need the tilt to hit the listener’s ears. Suboptimal IMHO.
Two days ago I took the time to change the tilt to my SL3s to nearly vertical.
My listening position is not too far away from the panels and my height is only average so tilting doesn't make much sense.
I do think that the image is now clearer, but since I can't measure this, it could be just placebo.
Nothing else changed, toe-in using flashlight, treatments, everything else is exactly the same.
One funny thing now is that when listening standing upright the frequency response is inferior (a lot of treble is missing, soundstage is not good either).
While sitting on the sofa it is perfect.
My ears are not over the top of the panels when standing up (speakers are on concrete slabs, plus spikes), so I can't explain this
My listening position is not too far away from the panels and my height is only average so tilting doesn't make much sense.
I do think that the image is now clearer, but since I can't measure this, it could be just placebo.
Nothing else changed, toe-in using flashlight, treatments, everything else is exactly the same.
One funny thing now is that when listening standing upright the frequency response is inferior (a lot of treble is missing, soundstage is not good either).
While sitting on the sofa it is perfect.
My ears are not over the top of the panels when standing up (speakers are on concrete slabs, plus spikes), so I can't explain this
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When the panels are at 90* the sound radiates directly at you not above you! What do you care if it sounds less detailed when standing. All Speakers will sound different when standing. Unless you have a multi speaker micro sats all over the room (A la Blose) . Stereo 2 channel is not a spectator sport. There is only 1 hot seat!
yeah they would sound a bit different, but before bringing them to near vertical they were not much different at all. Now it is night and day!
The soundstage moved to a lower level, that I expected (sort of)
But this frequency response change I can't explain really...
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi John,
General observations once you get the panels close to perpendicular.
Increase in speed, transparency, and three dimensionality. Substantial decrease in "smearing" the musical information, which is why, IMHO, we do what we do.
My theory is that the closer to vertical, the less time disparity (information arriving at the listening chair) you hear between the top and bottom of the panel.
As noted by CAP, the vertical listening "window" is decreased and the overall soundstage perspective is lower. This is consistent with my personal experience to listening to live music.
Apparent low end may decrease and may require some minor speaker placement adjustments. Listen to various genres of music before you adjust anything. With the the Summits, Vantage, etc. that have a bass crossover, it's pretty simple.
Hope that helps.
GG
General observations once you get the panels close to perpendicular.
Increase in speed, transparency, and three dimensionality. Substantial decrease in "smearing" the musical information, which is why, IMHO, we do what we do.
My theory is that the closer to vertical, the less time disparity (information arriving at the listening chair) you hear between the top and bottom of the panel.
As noted by CAP, the vertical listening "window" is decreased and the overall soundstage perspective is lower. This is consistent with my personal experience to listening to live music.
Apparent low end may decrease and may require some minor speaker placement adjustments. Listen to various genres of music before you adjust anything. With the the Summits, Vantage, etc. that have a bass crossover, it's pretty simple.
Hope that helps.
GG
One of the best pieces of advice that I ever got with respect to positioning Martin Logans was reiterated by CAP earlier in this thread:
"The distance from the front wall is huge. the further away from the front wall the better. At least 3 to 4 feet minimal. 5 to 6 is preferred. The rear wall should be at least 3 to 4 feet behind you to stop from getting bass heavy. The distance from the speakers them selves should be double the distance from inside edge to inside edge."
Bear this in mind and use the "flashlight" technique to bring in the best and most transparent sound. Very little toe-in will be required...
Example: If your panel is 12" wide, then 1/3 of it is 4". right? So your flashlight beam should light up a vertical streak right in the middle of that, which is 2" from the inside edge.
Follow these simple rules and ye shall be rewarded. :music:
~VDR
"The distance from the front wall is huge. the further away from the front wall the better. At least 3 to 4 feet minimal. 5 to 6 is preferred. The rear wall should be at least 3 to 4 feet behind you to stop from getting bass heavy. The distance from the speakers them selves should be double the distance from inside edge to inside edge."
Bear this in mind and use the "flashlight" technique to bring in the best and most transparent sound. Very little toe-in will be required...
Example: If your panel is 12" wide, then 1/3 of it is 4". right? So your flashlight beam should light up a vertical streak right in the middle of that, which is 2" from the inside edge.
Follow these simple rules and ye shall be rewarded. :music:
~VDR
As I also just noted over in the Monolith positioning thread, one of the reasons everyone recommends pulling big dipoles out into the room is that that is an easy way to lengthen the arrival time of rear waves, and shorten those of the front. The delta between rear and front needs to be >8ms and preferably > 12ms.
And easy way to measure this is to measure the distance between front panel and listening position, and then measure the ‘billiard ball path’ of the rear wave as it bounces towards the listening position. The difference between the two should be >12 feet.
With this distance, there is more of a perception of 'ambiance' and less of a 'this speaker is not clear' (due to comb filtering).
And easy way to measure this is to measure the distance between front panel and listening position, and then measure the ‘billiard ball path’ of the rear wave as it bounces towards the listening position. The difference between the two should be >12 feet.
With this distance, there is more of a perception of 'ambiance' and less of a 'this speaker is not clear' (due to comb filtering).
JohnLomnicki
Active member
I moved the speakers in, pulled them away from the wall and it sounds much better. The listening sweet spot has expanded, somewhat counterintuitive for me since I figured speakers farther apart would have an expanded soundstage.
I used to have the speakers 3 feet from the wall and had the inside curve of the panel pointed directly towards the primary listening position. I have now moved them 4 feet from the wall, moved them in from the sides, added some 2” thick DIY treatments behind the panels, spaced them about 5 feet apart and sit 10 feet back with almost no toe in. -- > Awesome
I thought the system sounded good, but now it sounds even better.
I must say that out of the box the ML speakers sound awesome, but add the right room EQ, bass traps, acoustic treatment, speaker positioning. I’ll put together a timeline of what I did and how the experience improved every step of the way.
Webinattor
Well-known member
sleepysurf
Well-known member
I've heard of this "inverted speaker" technique for postioning a SUB, but it doesn't make sense for a dipole ML.
Webinattor
Well-known member
Agree. Never heard of the technique before. Came across page by accident.
User211
Well-known member
OK so we're all pretty much agree that getting our speakers "more vertical" is better.
So this naturally begs the question, why did ML build in the slants in the 1st place? Any ideas? Some b*ll about time alignment, perhaps?
I will say one thing. My 1st pair of MLs i.e. the Aerius, DID NOT sound better when more vertical than the built-in slant. I think this was because they had added small bits of clear plastic behind the panel, presumably to try and correct the frequency balance. But it did cause some pretty wierd dispersion and audible nasties, if you ask me. The result was you didn't really want to line this up with your ears. Therefore, in this case, built-in slant = good!
So this naturally begs the question, why did ML build in the slants in the 1st place? Any ideas? Some b*ll about time alignment, perhaps?
I will say one thing. My 1st pair of MLs i.e. the Aerius, DID NOT sound better when more vertical than the built-in slant. I think this was because they had added small bits of clear plastic behind the panel, presumably to try and correct the frequency balance. But it did cause some pretty wierd dispersion and audible nasties, if you ask me. The result was you didn't really want to line this up with your ears. Therefore, in this case, built-in slant = good!
Nik
Well-known member
Since we are addressing speaker placement, can someone tell me the recommended distance APART for MLs. I used the SEARCH function but only found topics that mention distance from the rear wall. I am looking at approx 10ft right now between speakers (nothing inbetween the panels to block the sound waves) but I think the spacing my be too much. Thanks all, I promise my questions will soon be coming to an end!
Nik
Nik
theWB
Well-known member
Nik,
Here's a previous thread on the subject.
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=3620&highlight=triangle
Here's a previous thread on the subject.
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=3620&highlight=triangle
Nik
Well-known member
AWESOME! Thank you for the link, guess I was using the wrong search words.
Could someone comment on this placement....
10ft seperation-maybe with extreme toe-in to narrow soundstage....
3.5-4ft off wall
10ft from listening position
Lots of acoustic panels!
I could do an 8ft spacing but then I would have to place my amps behind my speakers and then I couldn't see them, that would be sad.
Thanks- Nik!
Could someone comment on this placement....
10ft seperation-maybe with extreme toe-in to narrow soundstage....
3.5-4ft off wall
10ft from listening position
Lots of acoustic panels!
I could do an 8ft spacing but then I would have to place my amps behind my speakers and then I couldn't see them, that would be sad.
Thanks- Nik!
Nik
Well-known member
What am I- a thread killer? Someone please help as I am about to start setting up my HT and would like some help to do it right the first time.
Nik
Nik
10ft seems a bit wide, but you will have to see how it sounds in your room. I would think 8ft max with the distance of your listening position. Tough compromise.
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