Speaker Cables -- did testing, sorry: now think it's nonsense

[NKokemohr]

Hi all,

I am sure this topic has arisen before but I didn't find anything in the direction when searching. My setup:

• PS Audio Perfectwave Power Plant
• PS Audio Perfectwave DAC + Bridge
• 2x MC275
• alternatively: Accuphase 407
• 2x Martin Logan Summit X

alltogether it's a 36.000$ system. And, belive it or not, I am using $1.99/ft Best Buy cables to wire the speakers, so according to public belief, I am doing the worst. However, a very nice gentleman of a store here in Southern California (won't tell their name, no intent to badmouth them), gave me $1400,- speaker cables of a very renown brand to test for the weekend.

The result: NO audible difference.

Also, a year ago, when my system didn't have the MLs and the MC275s, I did a similar test: I compared a 100$ interconnect of 1.5ft length to a 3.99$ interconnect of 30ft (!!) length -- that's 13 cents per foot. This should be the worst one can do to a system following public belief, shouldn't it?

The difference: SUBTLE differences.

Yes, there was a difference, the 30ft cable took away some of the higher frequencies. However, I was amazed by how little all other differences were. The sound stage was still good, resolution, timbre, all of that was still great.

Exchange a bad amp with a good amp and you get different frequencies, different dimensions, more instrument resolution, it's just getting better along so many parameters. But to my humble ears, the 30ft/3.99$ cable performed at the same league of the expensive cables, just slightly more round / less clear. Being a musician (cellist), I like it harsher, as that is much closer to the on-stage experience, but I can actually see someone even preferring the 3.99 cable.

Now, I _do_ want to get the most out of my stereo, but according to my findings, I don't believe in cables any more. Anyone here that can convince me otherwise? After all, better is better.

Thanks for the answers,

Nils

 

[Mantana]

cables...the biggest ripoff in audio..

although i did buy some 15 foot Audioquest Bedrock for around
$200 on sale from Audio Advisor. Can't say they sound better than
my Audio Magic cable or 14 guage zip wire, but they are more
attractive.

 

[roberto]

Hi all,

I am sure this topic has arisen before but I didn't find anything in the direction when searching. My setup:

• PS Audio Perfectwave Power Plant
• PS Audio Perfectwave DAC + Bridge
• 2x MC275
• alternatively: Accuphase 407
• 2x Martin Logan Summit X

alltogether it's a 36.000$ system. And, belive it or not, I am using $1.99/ft Best Buy cables to wire the speakers, so according to public belief, I am doing the worst. However, a very nice gentleman of a store here in Southern California (won't tell their name, no intent to badmouth them), gave me $1400,- speaker cables of a very renown brand to test for the weekend.

The result: NO audible difference.

Also, a year ago, when my system didn't have the MLs and the MC275s, I did a similar test: I compared a 100$ interconnect of 1.5ft length to a 3.99$ interconnect of 30ft (!!) length -- that's 13 cents per foot. This should be the worst one can do to a system following public belief, shouldn't it?

The difference: SUBTLE differences.

Yes, there was a difference, the 30ft cable took away some of the higher frequencies. However, I was amazed by how little all other differences were. The sound stage was still good, resolution, timbre, all of that was still great.

Exchange a bad amp with a good amp and you get different frequencies, different dimensions, more instrument resolution, it's just getting better along so many parameters. But to my humble ears, the 30ft/3.99$ cable performed at the same league of the expensive cables, just slightly more round / less clear. Being a musician (cellist), I like it harsher, as that is much closer to the on-stage experience, but I can actually see someone even preferring the 3.99 cable.

Now, I _do_ want to get the most out of my stereo, but according to my findings, I don't believe in cables any more. Anyone here that can convince me otherwise? After all, better is better.

Thanks for the answers,

Nils

Hola Nils...I am just going to try to convince you why I can listen a difference: ..."AXIOM #1: Because of the tunneling effect and piezoelectric and triboelectric properties, wire is microphonic. As a result, energy from mechanical resonances affects the flow of electrical energy through a conductor in such a way as to audibly emphasize the notes and overtones that coincide with the frequency of that resonance. If we change the way a conductor (wire or PC traces) vibrates and/or resonates, we change the way it sounds. Thus, in a sense, wire can be thought of as a "mechanical" tone control.

All resonances affect the tonality of the sound of your audio system, whether they are electrical or mechanical...or a combination of the two. The electrical properties that cause wire and PC board traces to become mechanical tone controls are today just coming into focus. All materials have mechanical resonances; change the size, shape, and composition of a part, and its mechanical resonances will change. Even when the circuit and parts stay the same, a prototype that is MADE differently from a production model will SOUND different. (This statement comes as the result of personal experience and from conversations with other manufacturers.) Why? Because materials such as the chassis and mounting hardware will differ, the mechanical resonances will differ, and these resonances will electrically highlight different parts of the signal’s sonic spectrum, so the sound coming from your speakers will have to differ also.

This is a major reason — and possibly the fundamental reason — why today’s conventional engineering practices alone are doomed to perpetuate the design and production of products that are a "Dr. Jeckyl" in one audio system, and a "Mr. Hyde" in another. The significance of an audio component’s resonances, to both consumer and designer alike, is a hidden aspect that confounds and confuses those seeking to build a truly enjoyable system. It "confounds and confuses" because without an adequate understanding of how resonance affects a product’s "sound," designers cannot build nor can consumers buy a component that sounds accurate AND musical in any and all systems...All audio equipment can be tuned. Because it can be tuned, it then has properties like those of a musical instrument, and SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT. All musical instruments have a characteristic tone...so do all audio system components...they showed me what to listed...happy listening, regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.

 

[Tosh]

Mike Vans Evers lives in Costa Rica?!

 

[roberto]

Mike Vans Evers lives in Costa Rica?!

No...but he liked a lot of sounding woods that we have in our forest...like Pernanbuco...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[amey01]

From my experimentation, it's eminently dependent on the components either side of the cable. Some components are inherently less picky about cable. Some cables work with some components and not others.

Making things harder is the fact that they are so hard to test/audition.

 

[Necrosuit]

So whats your point about cheap cables?
I find that cheap cables sound terrible in my system, I ve tried tons of cables and am currently the happiest with my $500-1k range of cables. More expensive cables didnt do me any favors and less expensive didnt either.
But by my personal trial and error (like, dislike) I found what works in my current room and system.
So again, remove the price tag and find what sounds best for your room/system.

 

[sleepysurf]

Electric current simply follows the path of least resistance. However, I have clearly heard (but not measured) differences between various speaker cables (haven't done blind testing of interconnects or power cables). I can't honestly say I fully agree with Roberto's (or, for that matter, Mike VE's <g>) explanations, but something is going on. I prefer the catch-all phrase "system synergy" and will leave it at that.

Regardless, I believe that speaker placement, acoustic treatments/room interaction, and component choices, have far more impact on the overall musical presentation, and should be the primary focus when building a system. Once everything else has been optimized, swapping out cables should be the final tweak.

I don't feel I've even accomplished the former yet with my own setup, so I've deferred all further cable upgrades until I address everything else.

 

[twich54]

Can't say they sound better than
my Audio Magic cable or 14 guage zip wire, but they are more
attractive.

A HUGE rationale for many a cable purchase for sure !! ....although rarely admitted to !!

 

[RUR]

Interesting tags for this thread.

 

[Bernard]

From my experimentation, it's eminently dependent on the components either side of the cable. Some components are inherently less picky about cable. Some cables work with some components and not others.

Making things harder is the fact that they are so hard to test/audition.

Very valid points.

I'm always amazed at blanket statements that cables don't make a difference. You may not be able to hear a difference between a $1.99 cable and a $1,400 cable, but that does not automatically mean that you have listened to all cables in existence.

I also wonder what music people use for their evaluations, and at what sound levels. Also, people assume that their hearing is perfect. What if you cannot hear higher frequencies, and those are the frequencies at which there are differences.

 

[twich54]

I'm always amazed at blanket statements that cables don't make a difference. You may not be able to hear a difference between a $1.99 cable and a $1,400 cable, but that does not automatically mean that you have listened to all cables in existence.

True Bernard but there in lies the 'rub'.......what's more important listening and enjoying ones music or searching for the 'Holy Cable Grail' ??

The older I get the more I firmly believe those that due the later are unable to enjoy their music no matter what they tell you !

 

[Bernard]

True Bernard but there in lies the 'rub'.......what's more important listening and enjoying ones music our searching for the 'Holy Cable Grail' ??

The older I get the more I firmly believe those that due the later are unable to enjoy their music no matter what they tell you !

That's right Dave. I listened to a few cables and settled on the ones I liked the best, which I have had for over 10 years. Never occurred to me to consider cable upgrades since - too busy listening to music.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Dave,

Sorry my friend but have to disagree.

I understand the skeptics perspective but, assuming your system is up to it, speaker wire, and the differences thereof, should be quite audible.

Not defending the mega buck cable or the neurotic types that listen to their gear more than the music.

Regarding Nils perspective, it is likely that other anomalies are going on in his system that prevent him from hearing cable differences. The amp is a prime suspect. Everything I've read indicates that the MC275 is highly colored and on the romantic side. Given this coloration, his observations are not surprising. There could be other issues with his system (speaker placement, interconnects, etc.) that further diminish its transparency.

System cost does not equate to a listening experience that is musical and involving.

But if Nils is happy with his system using the inexpensive wire, that's all that matters. To say that there are no differences in speaker wire is, at best, a silly and indefensible position.

GG

 

[autoformer]

I would have agreed with you a few months ago. But, as some will tell you here on this forum, I had an experience I can't deny.

My Setup:
McIntosh C50 Preamp/DAC
McIntosh MC425 Amp
PS Audio Power Plant Premiere
Martin Logan Summit X
DIY cables made from 4 conductor solid core copper wire

In short, the setup sounded quite bad. Bloated bass and, worst of all, a very harsh sounding midrange. You could also describe it as a "ring". With certain female vocalists (K.D. Lang was unlistenable), this ring would just seem to drill into your head. Bass was bloated as well.

Just about everyone I asked pointed to my room as the culprit. I am still working on improving the acoustics.

But the real change happened when I purchased a set of Transparent MusicWave cables. That nasty midrange ring disappeared. Bass became better defined. High end more extended. I could detect these cables easily in an A/B with vocals. Pain vs no pain.

Of course, the Transparent cables are not just cables, but include a Zobel network box inline, which stabilizes the load presented to the amp. I have not noticed any difference between these cables and straight wires with conventional cone speakers. But with the Summits, the difference is dramatic.

Now, I _do_ want to get the most out of my stereo, but according to my findings, I don't believe in cables any more. Anyone here that can convince me otherwise? After all, better is better.

Thanks for the answers,

Nils

 

[shakham]

I am somewhat in your camp.

I do believe 2 things....

The thicker the cable the better. Lower resistance means lower load for the amp means easier to drive, hence louder, and less chances of exposing amp weaknesses. Of course....if your amp is overpowered and you listen at low volumes then it won't make a difference.

2nd aspect...
Proper shielding CAN be important. Depends on where the wire is going and if it's picking up anything. Thinner wires tend to be nice antennas .

 

[shakham]

BTW this thread needs the popcorns emoticons .

Do we have that?

I'm on my phone so hard to tell.

 

[BobF]

Dave,

Sorry my friend but have to disagree.

I understand the skeptics perspective but, assuming your system is up to it, speaker wire, and the differences thereof, should be quite audible.

Not defending the mega buck cable or the neurotic types that listen to their gear more than the music.

Regarding Nils perspective, it is likely that other anomalies are going on in his system that prevent him from hearing cable differences. The amp is a prime suspect. Everything I've read indicates that the MC275 is highly colored and on the romantic side. Given this coloration, his observations are not surprising. There could be other issues with his system (speaker placement, interconnects, etc.) that further diminish its transparency.

System cost does not equate to a listening experience that is musical and involving.

But if Nils is happy with his system using the inexpensive wire, that's all that matters. To say that there are no differences in speaker wire is, at best, a silly and indefensible position.

GG

Could not agree with you more Gordon!

Best,
Bob

 

[Gordon]

Wel Nils, you now have more money for music!!

Gordon

But I do agree with Gordon above!

 

[Speedskater]

I am somewhat in your camp.
I do believe 2 things....
The thicker the cable the better. Lower resistance means lower load for the amp means easier to drive, hence louder, and less chances of exposing amp weaknesses. Of course....if your amp is overpowered and you listen at low volumes then it won't make a difference.
2nd aspect...
Proper shielding CAN be important. Depends on where the wire is going and if it's picking up anything. Thinner wires tend to be nice antennas .

Not that the small difference has any effect, but lower resistance wire means a lower resistance load on the amplifier, most amps are happier driving higher impedance (or resistance) loads.

The diameter of speaker wires has little to do with the wires acting as an antenna. It's the length of the wires and the frequency of the interference that matters.

Few speaker wires are shielded, but twisting zip type speaker wires is good for reducing interference.