Question about center sweetspot being only about 12 inches wide...whats set wrong?

[jsetliff]

Quick newbie question for the placement experts. When I listen to stereo music and singer is perfectly centered between the speakers, my sweet spot is currently only about 12 inches wide. If I move my head 12 inches to left, then the singer moves into the left speaker, and if I move 12 inches to right then singer moves into right speaker.

I would like to at least have a sweet spot that two people can enjoy at the same time. Please advise on possible speaker placement moves that should widen the sweet spot to wider than a single person. Is it the toe in angle that is at fault here, or the distance between speakers?

My speakers are currently 65 inches apart.
My seating position is 85 inches back from the plane of the speakers.
My toe in angle is currently 8 degrees inward.

Any positioning/movement advise would be greatly appreciated.

 

[C.A.P]

Welcome to Two channel listening. There is only ONE sweet spot that is dead center vocals. You can experiment with positioning but generally there is only one SWEET spot.. HT or multi channel with a center channel give a better multi listening experience..

 

[sleepysurf]

It's going to be tough to get a "true" 2 person sweet spot with the Ethos (narrower) 9.2" panel, and 65" spacing between your speakers. Doesn't look like your wall/entertainment configuration will allow much wider spacing, but just for kicks, try separating the speakers another 1-2 ft, then play with toe-in, and see what happens. If the sweet spot widens, you might consider reconfiguring that entire wall (which I think you mentioned in a prior post).

I formerly had Summits (11" wide panels), but still only a 1 person sweet spot. Since upgrading to the Expressions (13" panels) and placing them 90" apart, I now have a "cozy" 2 person sweet spot. There's only so much you can do with the laws of physics!

Alternatively, you can always do what Roger Sanders (of Sanders Sound Systems) does... place another listening chair directly behind the primary one!

 

[jsetliff]

Thank you both for the info and advice. Reducing the toe in has helped slightly. I don't think that I will be able to place them further apart without changing the room or I will hit the close back wall problem. LOL...not gonna even chance telling my better half "here's your seat....right behind me!" That would not go over very well. Will do a little more experimenting, but for now I think reducing the toe in has given me a pretty wide sound stage and other then the small sweet spot I am happy with the sound. I am sure I will keep tweaking as I get the urge and the time.

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[sleepysurf]

One more (less than ideal) option is extreme toe-in, aiming the panels so they intersect a foot or two in front of the sweet spot. I've played with that approach in the past, and found it creates a more diffuse central sweet spot (with less distinct imaging) but better imaging when listening off axis.

 

[Brad225]

Alternatively, you can always do what Roger Sanders (of Sanders Sound Systems) does... place another listening chair directly behind the primary one!

I agree with Alan on speaker positioning and sweet spot.

At the last listening club meeting at Alan's, some of us perfered the higher seat behind the sweet spot on the couch. Try it and give your better half the conventional sweet spot. You may find the sound is as good or better and make a lot of points in the process.

 

[C.A.P]

I agree with Alan on speaker positioning and sweet spot.

At the last listening club meeting at Alan's, some of us perfered the higher seat behind the sweet spot on the couch. Try it and give your better half the conventional sweet spot. You may find the sound is as good or better and make a lot of points in the process.

Its not a bad thing to be "Behind" the women you Love .

 

[bikerneil]

This a great thread, and is a question I have had. It's nice to see confirmation from others that there is only one single "BEST" sweet spot. 99% of the time, I am listening by myself so it's no problem. When my wife ventures in to "my" room, I always insist that she sit in the primary spot (and I don't even tell her that the other seat is not nearly as good).

For now I will continue to tweak toe-in, distance from walls, etc - always looking for an even better sound stage..........

Happy listening.

 

[Rich]

Electrostats are notorious for having a narrow sweet spot. ML's curved panels are better than the flat panels like Sanders Sound speakers in this regard, but they trade off a bit of imaging and soundstaging to get that slightly wider sweet spot. If you want a really nice wide sweet spot, go with a radial speaker like the MBL's. Maybe Gordon will chime in on this, but when I heard his MBL's, I was amazed at how good they sounded off-axis.

 

[twich54]

all of the above and that's why it's called the 'sweet' spot ...............

 

[sleepysurf]

Electrostats are notorious for having a narrow sweet spot. ML's curved panels are better than the flat panels like Sanders Sound speakers in this regard, but they trade off a bit of imaging and soundstaging to get that slightly wider sweet spot. If you want a really nice wide sweet spot, go with a radial speaker like the MBL's. Maybe Gordon will chime in on this, but when I heard his MBL's, I was amazed at how good they sounded off-axis.

Alternatively, if you have the budget, check out Muraudio omnidirectional stats... http://muraudio.com/

 

[Rich]

Alternatively, if you have the budget, check out Muraudio omnidirectional stats... http://muraudio.com/

Interesting! And hey, they cost less than a pair of Neoliths.

 

[JonFo]

The reason the sweet spot is typically narrow is due to what's going on with the reflected rear-wave from the dipole panel.

Remember, these speakers radiate *equal* amounts of energy towards the front wall as they do directly to the listener from the front of the panel. How that energy is bounced around, when and from where it arrives at your ear, helps define the soundstage and imaging.

When you lean to the left out of the sweet spot, the reason the imaging anchors to the left speaker is that you now are hearing much more of the reflected rear wave bouncing off the left wall of the room.
It's as if you have two left speakers, one is the main listener-facing panel, the other is 'in the wall' delivering a somewhat reduced level, delayed and out-of-phase version of the same sound.

So changing the angle of the toe-in moves that phantom in-wall speaker forward or back on the side walls. Adding or reducing the delay and possibly the level (depending on materials in the path) of that reflected sound.

Which is also why one the most effective ways of broadening the sweet spot is to actually modify that reflected sound, by either spreading it out to multiple phantom lateral images using diffusion, or minimizing it by using absorption on the wall behind the speakers.

Any discussion of large dipole panel speaker positioning that does not account for the rear waves behavior is only looking at half of the problem.

 

[JonFo]

Oh, and if you want to visualize this rear wave impact, I mentioned a tool in this post on my huge Acoustics saga thread.

That thread is worth reading if you really want to understand more about room acoustics and ML placement. It is a bit of documented journey, so it's not a short how to, but more how did we get here.

My personal choice of using massive amounts of absorption and choice use of diffusion were all born from that research and then subsequent experimentation.

 

[twich54]

good info Jonathan, Thank you !

 

[Rich]

Oh, and if you want to visualize this rear wave impact, I mentioned a tool in this post on my huge Acoustics saga thread.

That thread is worth reading if you really want to understand more about room acoustics and ML placement. It is a bit of documented journey, so it's not a short how to, but more how did we get here.

Jonathan, thanks for bringing that thread back up. I had forgotten about it, and re-reading it now, it just contains a ton of relevant quality information on the effects of acoustic treatment and ML speakers. That thread should be required reading for any ML owners looking to get the best performance out of their system.

 

[sleepysurf]

Bumping this thread!

We hosted a large dinner party Sunday, so I pushed my Expressions back, and also rotated the panels inward (extreme toe-in) to further protect them. Turns out, a couple guests wanted to hear my system, so I cranked it up even though not properly positioned. I was surprised how well they sounded, both off axis and in the sweet spot. I don't recall the imaging being this good when I tried extreme toe-in with my Summits. Gonna play around with this a bit more now.

Anybody routinely using extreme toe-in (with flashlight reflecting off outer third of the panel) instead of the recommended inner third?

 

[Hear Here]

Bumping this thread!

We hosted a large dinner party Sunday, so I pushed my Expressions back, and also rotated the panels inward (extreme toe-in) to further protect them. Turns out, a couple guests wanted to hear my system, so I cranked it up even though not properly positioned. I was surprised how well they sounded, both off axis and in the sweet spot. I don't recall the imaging being this good when I tried extreme toe-in with my Summits. Gonna play around with this a bit more now.

Anybody routinely using extreme toe-in (with flashlight reflecting off outer third of the panel) instead of the recommended inner third?

I've just bought Expression 13As and my initial toe-in tests indicate that the recommended torchlight reflection at 1/3 from the inside edge gave me (as experienced by the OP) a very narrow sweet spot. In fact by coincidence (only yesterday), I reported on another ML Forum that my sweet spot was about 12" wide and moving my head by just 6" reduced the sound to little better than mono.

I decided to increase the toe-in to the angle that was best for my Avantgarde horn speakers ie with the inside surfaces of the ML's bass cabinets pointing towards the listening position - so almost 1/2 reflection. This seems to have greatly increased the width of the sweet spot without spoiling the ML's exceptional imaging.

Early days, but this seems better than the 1/3 toe-in. Peter