Power Conditioners - are you plugging your ML's in?

[Dreamer]

...Monster power conditioners use MOVs, which have a relatively limited lifespan. After the MOVs are gone MANY times the units continue to pass current to the equipment meaning that the next surge could destroy the connected gear.

Close, but technically not true...

MOV's have no more or less "lifespan" than any other electronic component, in a "laboratory-clean" electrical environment. I mean, capacitors and resistors have a limited lifespan too, but you don't see Panamax or Shunyata saying that we shouldn't use THEM in power conditioning devices...

Now, the proper way to put this (and I'm not jumping down your throat, but rather correcting the product literature of brands that use non-MOV-based devices) is that MOVs have a limited "duty cycle", meaning that when they are actually doing their job (absorbing spikes) they will die much more quickly. If you fed a MOV pure, clean sine-wave perfect power, they should theoretically last as long as any other semiconductor...

All that said, I agree with the premise (if not the wording). Seeing as how the mains power in MOST urban locales is just bug-ass crazy with RFI, EMI, and all sorts of spikey nasties (due to cheap wiring, radio transmitters, solar flares, RADAR transmissions, etc.), there simply is no real-world scenario where the mains power coming into your house even REMOTELY resembles a sine wave. Don't believe me? Hook up an oscilloscope to an AC outlet (using the proper settings, of course). Theoretically, you should get a perfect sine-wave trace, but I'd be willing to bet that if you live in an urban area, or within 20 miles of a military base or commercial airport or AM radio or TV transmitter, it will look more like a seismograph readout than a sine wave.

I did this once, to put an end to an argument with a sysadmin regarding just how dirty the power in the DC-metro area was. I maintained that the mains power was just bug-ass crazy with spikes and he kept saying it (and ALL mains power) was a perfect sine wave at the outlet, under normal conditions. He maintained that because we were located just a few miles from our power generating station in DC, our power should be nearly perfect. The Washington DC area has some of the dirtiest power on the East Coast, due to the "perfect storm" of RFI/EMI pollution, between the multiple airports, military bases, intelligence community installations, TV and radio transmitters, and the fact that at that time, we were nearing the "max" in the solar flare cycle, our power was just inconceivably dirty. He just couldn't understand why the batteries in his APCs were crapping out at about 75% their rated lifespan. Hey, dirty power is hard on batteries too. I brought in an o-scope, hooked it up, and just gloated.

Panamax makes good stuff. So does ZeroSurge. Some of the high-end Furman units are good, as are the high-end APC units. I've seen the circuitry inside the Shunyata Hydra, and I can't for the life of me see how it does anything more than a good Belkin unit (except that the Hydra puts the MOVs AFTER the "regulation circuitry, not before it, so they are protected from the "everyday grundge, and are really just there to absorb BIG spikes and surges, and therefore would last longer). Personally, I'd rather buy a brand-new Belkin every two or three years for the next 20 years than drop the same amount all at once on a Hydra, but that's my wallet talking as much as much ears.

I've seen a few folks on here (and other forums) that use TrippLite units. I've never liked the "sound" of TrippLite gear--to me, in my rig, every TrippLite unit I've used (and I've probably tried half a dozen, from their "budget" wall-warts to multi-thousand$$ rack-mount "mission critical" units built for telecom and computer server applications) seems to impart a sort of grainy edginess to the sound of my rig. But if they work for you, then that's great. Personally, based on my own experience, I would never recommend them though...

Zero Surge is the only device that I would trust in a SERIOUS surge situation like a lightning strike or a brownout/blackout cycle. They have excellent build quality, a FANTASTIC guarantee, and they are used by a lot of "mission critical" clients like university data centers, ISPs, and military. and intelligence community users.

I use Belkin and Zero Surge units, in combination--ZeroSurge at the wall, and Belkin units tapped out of them to give me easier access to the outlets. Seems to work well...

But in truth, the ONLY way to protect your gear against lightning or brown-out/blackout surges is to UNPLUG it. The "guarantees" offered by surge-protection manufacturers (even the good ones like Panamax and ZeroSurge) are cold comfort if your gear gets fried...

I unplug all my gear at the first sign of electrical storms, or ANYTIME we go out of town. Since my sweetie and I work opposite shifts, I can always call her if I'm at work and a storm hits. She might not know how to operate the box full of remotes to make the sound come out of my rigs, but she DOES know how to turn everything off and pull the plugs from the mains...

 

[tonepub]

Interesting that the only choices are heavy duty extension cords or snake oil....

 

[JonFo]

What are you guys doing with your subs? I am currently runnig 2 JL Fathom 113 subs, that are plugged straight into the wall outlets that are behind them... I would assume that these beasts are too power hungry to be plugged into a power conditioner??? How are you guys treating your subs???

thanks!~

Gordon, the subs (and any amp for that matter) should be on a circuit (and power protection device) than can supply the amperage specified for the load. Depending on amplifier topology, some put more instantaneous strain on the power source than others.

But in general, the max rated amperage for the amp itself should be cleanly supported by the power filter.

In my case, I have multiple 20 amp sub-feeds coming off he 5KVA toroid in the Equitech. Each has it's own 20amp relay and some have additional EMI/RFI filtering as well.


Even though I have 15 channels of amplification attached, the EquiTech keeps up fine (as I'd hope anything fed by 30amps of 240v might)


BTW- one of the reasons for balanced power is that it's relatively immune to traveling long distances, as the symetrical power naturally sheds interference.
The longest run in my setup is probably about 50' between EquiTech and furthest speaker.

 

[tonyc]

Gordon, The Shunyatas can handle your subs. If you need a good extension cord try Signal cable-I ordered one that I am using with my Descent and it sounds great. I have heard the Audience as well-it sounds great too but may be a gnats hair less warm sounding than the Shunyata and it sounds an awful lot like my Richard Gray conditioner, which is also a bit less warm than the Shunyatas.

 

[Shub]

APC Power Conditioner H15

I hope I don't offend anyone when I say that I have always thought that "power conditioners" where in the "snake oil" category!!

That is until this weekend......

I have always had surge protectors because, well it makes sense to protect your equipment - especially when your setup starts to gravitate towards many thousands of dollars -- it's just good sense!

I have been using a Tripp Lite SMART1000LCD 1000VA UPS - battery back-up. But this item is really meant for computer systems and offers no power filtering or conditioning. When I saw that Amazon/Tiger Direct had a sale on the silver version of the APC H15 ($99) I just couldn't pass up the price and purchased two units (really just because it made it easier to connect all of my equipment without having to resort to extension cords....) This was especially attractive because I was able to get two units for $199 wheras the same product in black would have set me back $700... I'm sorry but for a $500 savings it could have been pink for all I care !!

Like I said, I did not for one moment think that it would make a difference in sound, just wanted to keep my equipment protected....

WOW is all I can say... there was actually quite a noticeable change in sound.. it almost sounds like a veil has been lifted.... the soundstage is much more expansive and mid-bass also seems tighter and more pronounced. I am still trying to figure out if this is just a psychological phenomena - I swear my car feels better after a good wash too

I am pleased that is for sure, and maybe, just maybe I have been converted and think that it is not such snake oil after all (up to a certain degree anyways!)


Thanks
Bjarni

 

[gordonmenninger]

well, i looked at all of my connections, and I actually did have the front ML's +center hooked into my Monster Power Cond unit... The subs are plugged straight into the wall though...

I read somewhere on here that someone said that Panamax had a lifetime warranty on their gear... I actually had an old MAX 1000 unit still laying around that gave up its ghost last year.. . I contacted Panamax and here is what they offered me... What do you guys think I should do? Is their stuff any good? WHich unit would you get (if any)?

thanks! gordon

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your inquiry. The Max 1000+ is a discontinued model and due to its age, parts are no longer available for repair. So we have a replacement and an upgrade option available to you:
1. Return the unit for the standard replacement of the Max 4300-PM (Our most current model). We have a $25.00 s/h fee that covers the return shipping. (Note: The Max 1000+ is a discontinued product and parts are no longer available for repair.)
2. You may trade in and upgrade your unit to any of our current product line at a discount of 50% off the retail price and in addition you can also purchase up to two additional products and also receive them at 50% off. The upgrade offer is a fantastic way to receive new technology such as improved EMI/RFI noise filtration, more ac outlets and additional signal line protection for satellite, cable and pay-per-view features. The new units are HDTV and cable modem ready so they are designed for today's frequency ranges and bandwidths. We offer 3 models the Max 5100-PM, 5300-PM, and M5400-PM. We also have a model from our “EX” series still available that we are offering a 65% discount, the M5300-EX. Below is a link to our current AV components so you may review them and decide if upgrading is an option that you would like to take advantage of:
http://www.panamax.com/Products/A-V-Components/Default.aspx

Pricing:
M5300-EX MSRP $549.95 @ 65% = $192.48

M5100-PM MSRP $399.95 @ 50% = $199.98
M5300-PM MSPR $499.95 @ 50% = $249.98
M5400-PM MSRP $699.95 @ 50% = $349.98

If you have any questions, please let me know. I can be reached by email at [email protected] or by phone at 1-800-472-5555 Ext 2325, Monday - Friday from 7:30am to 4:30pm Pacific.


Meagan Moriarty

 

[JMAUSGP]

Gordon,

If we make the assumption that the Panamax is good enough for your ear, hypothetically, then those kinds of discounts bring the price of admission to a ridiculously low point. Not much competition in other words.

However, if you are interested in getting the best power conditioner or power regenerator that sounds the best with your system, to your ear, then you have a whole other journey ahead of you.

My guess is you could go ahead and get a Panamax and then continue to look at the high-end conditioners and sell the Panamax for what you have in it, if you so desire.

Bottom line though, if you do audition, PS Audio, Running Springs Audio, Shuyata, Furman, APC, etc. I know I am missing some good conditioners, but the point is that you need to be prepared to spend 1500 to 3000 dollars or more if you find one that you can't live without. Many of us have had that epiphany moment where due to a good power conditioner the noise floor drops to total blackness and the veil is lifted on the dynamic curtain of your system, it is truly amazing what power conditioning and power cords can do. Oh....darn I didn't mean to mention power cords cause that is another journey all together.

On second thought, go with the discounted Panamax it is less work and as they say, "What you don't hear, won't hurt you".

But you know you are not a real audiophine until you have been bitten by an anaconda or a python.

Audiophine definition: Possessed or obsessed Audiophile.

 

[RichTeer]

But you know you are not a real audiophine until you have been bitten by an anaconda or a python.

If those are references to certain brands of power cable, I think I need to get a life!

 

[gordonmenninger]

$1500 - $3000 for power conditioners? I know I will get flamed for this post, but this is getting into "snake oil" territory for me unfortunately! My current setup with my crappy Monster HTS 1600 power conditioner that I paid $250 for, gets the job done with all of my equipment except for the JL Fathoms (which JL audio, I just found out, recommends being plugged straight into the wall outlets, as power conditioners will adversely affect their performance). I can crank up my preamp all the way and hear absolute silence for whatever that is worth...

We all know there has been alot written on expensive power conditioners, a/c cables, etc and I think we all have to make up our own mind about them!

 

[JMAUSGP]

Gordon,

No flaming, don't worry about that.

But since you originally asked what some of us thought about power conditioners, at least that is what I thought you asked. Could be my mistake.

Anyway I was just suggesting that it might be interesting for you to take a look at some of those expensive power conditioners.

After all they sell alot of them to some very sophisticated clientel so maybe it is snake oil and maybe it isn't, but it might be fun for you to decide for yourself.

Personally, I have read reviews by TonePub and then I have aquired the exact same pieces of equipment and experienced the exact same sonics that he describes. Because of that, I have come to trust his judgement.

You may want to read some reviews of power conditioners and see if you can audition them and expereince some of the sonics that various reviewers describe. Might be fun, hopefully it is.

The destination is not as important as the journey, but you might not want to cut off certain paths before you can go down them an see where they lead. Of course this may not interst you at all and that is okay too, in that case nevermind.:music:

 

[tonepub]

Both Running Springs and Shunyata dealers will give you an in-home demo...

Try it in and out of your system and see what you think before you make claims that they can't/don't work.

 

[amey01]

If you run a conditioner for one device, I think you're wasting your time if you don't run one for all of them. Once the equipment is connected then it's connected - no point having the power conditioner at all then.

The only exception would be an optically connected digital device as there is no electrical connection.

 

[DTB300]

Both Running Springs and Shunyata dealers will give you an in-home demo...

I knew Shunyata did this, but was not aware of RSA - very cool.

Try it in and out of your system and see what you think before you make claims that they can't/don't work.

In this hobby there are many things which "should" not make a difference, yet they do. It is then a matter of what degree of change was made/heard, and how much it is going to cost you. Try it yourself, then decide.

 

[gordonmenninger]

thanks for all the insightful tips! Very interesting! I will probably go ahead and just get one of the low fi Panamax units for right now as the price is just too good to pass up... I am sure down the road (knowing myself) I will throw out all that junk and spend the big bucks on a high end unit... THat's just how this crazy hobby of ours goes!

 

[JMAUSGP]

I think it is called a deal so good you can't refuse, and it is.

When you do have the money, you can always audition some HIFI conditioners and most likely you can get all or most of your money out of your Panamax.

So in a sense, you are no worse the wear and that is the name of that tune.

Hence the Panamax is too good a deal to pass on, and you never know you could get hit by lightening in the next week or so and you will be back in the market.

 

[sleepysurf]

Believe it or not, I came home from work tonight to find my electricity out, and my whole house backup generator running (first time in 2 years since installed). Turns out the power transformer right between my neighbors house and mine blew up! My generator feeds a limited number of circuits in the house (A/C, refrigerators, a few lights, and my network hub), but not my dedicated 20A line. I'm hoping my Monster and Belkin surge protectors adequately protected all my A/V gear, but I already see definite evidence of damage elsewhere, e.g. soot around some of the electrical outlets. I need to check everything out, once full power is restored. Fortunately, I also have a whole-house surge protector (from the electric company) with $100,000 coverage, but I sure hope things didn't get fried.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Actually the reason I mentioned lightening is that last weekend we had a unusual lightening strike right by the house.

Lightening hit a 75 foot tall 20 inch diameter cherry tree a couple hundred hards from the house and it vaporized the tree. There is only about 5 ft left the rest of the tree is in thousands of pieces spread over 100 yards.

It was close enough to the house to come in over my network and it zapped several things but luckily not any of the good stuff.

Electricity is some strange chit.

Power conditioners/protectors are essential, that some of the hifi grade ones sound really good compared to others is actually just a bonus.

 

[sleepysurf]

Whew, so far my Summits and other A/V gear seem OK! Kitchen phone got fried, and Master BR Tivo won't power up. Hopefully no other major damage.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Whew, so far my Summits and other A/V gear seem OK! Kitchen phone got fried, and Master BR Tivo won't power up. Hopefully no other major damage.

wow I hope all of your good stuff is alive and well

I wonder in the real big event if these things will really work.

I know that nothing can protect against a direct lightning strike just to much energy but what happened in your neighborhood is exactly what they are for

 

[sleepysurf]

...but what happened in your neighborhood is exactly what they are for

Precisely!