Ronin
Well-known member
My amp does have 4 terms per side. I could bi wire easy. Bi amp sounds a bit scary till I have a better understanding of what I have here.
New ML Owner. CLS II's re-paneled and brought up to spec.
- Thread starter Ronin
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Ronin
Well-known member
That is an older interface but I don't know how old. I have a picture of mine before the upgrade. I will see if I can find it.
Can you take a closer pic of the white box looking thing in the middle of your interface. Does it say anything on that part?
I am going to send this to my EE and see what he thinks. I sure he is going to ask if there is any writing on the part I was asking about. He will probably know what it is actually.
I was able to increase the pic size and could see the white thing I don't know anything about. You don't need to post another pic of that.
It didn't look like there were any wires connected to the switch or you just couldn't see them.
Can you take a closer pic of the switch to be able to see where the wires go that are connected.
Brad
It didn't look like there were any wires connected to the switch or you just couldn't see them.
Can you take a closer pic of the switch to be able to see where the wires go that are connected.
Brad
Ronin
Well-known member
Ronin
Well-known member
If you mean the flat/soft switch you are right. No wonder I did not hear any difference lol...
The switch in the diode panel may very well be functioning. Try it and see.
Ronin
Well-known member
My guess is that it is working. The mods look like they are limited to the other board.
I think at this point Ill listen this weekend and if I really love them, then it's a mystery I can work on and maybe one day get an answer to. If it's going to bother me than I can return them. The original owner who was a "major player" at ML who is neither "M" nor "L" I have been asked not to contact -he would know. Or maybe we (forum) come up with some info another way.
I'm not even considering a bi-amp but I can try bi-wire for fun. The Michi does not lack power at 600 into 4ohm and drives them nicely.
The speaker seems to function as a two transducer speaker in that either set of terminals alone give an entirely different presentation. How that works, I'm not sure but I'm sure it is happening as I tested it.
They are pretty cool though. I'm frustrated I hit a dead end with ML and TMR but it's not the end of the world. Thanks again for all that are interested enough to post and add recommendations. Much appreciated!
I think at this point Ill listen this weekend and if I really love them, then it's a mystery I can work on and maybe one day get an answer to. If it's going to bother me than I can return them. The original owner who was a "major player" at ML who is neither "M" nor "L" I have been asked not to contact -he would know. Or maybe we (forum) come up with some info another way.
I'm not even considering a bi-amp but I can try bi-wire for fun. The Michi does not lack power at 600 into 4ohm and drives them nicely.
The speaker seems to function as a two transducer speaker in that either set of terminals alone give an entirely different presentation. How that works, I'm not sure but I'm sure it is happening as I tested it.
They are pretty cool though. I'm frustrated I hit a dead end with ML and TMR but it's not the end of the world. Thanks again for all that are interested enough to post and add recommendations. Much appreciated!
Ronin mate, how are those CLS/II's sounding mate? Any further updates on the speaker terminals... either way with the jumpers in place things should be mighty fine.
Speaking of the CLS, these were designed in such a way to be full range stats that could reproduce fine music. Just the other weekend I had the opportunity of listening to a wonderful pair of CLSIIZ's set up really well, driven by a full array of Jadis amplifiers. Just a beautiful sound! These very similar Jadis monoblocks were also demoed in one of the highend shows to drive the Alsyvox Botichelli-X ribbons. I believe it was in Munich. Anyway, it goes to show that these stats still hold good value and when driven with the right type of gear and properly set up, they still perform at a remarkable level.
Of course the all updated version and full radical change from the CLS design to the CLX's is yet at another dimension. However, the moment I walked into the room and stared at those CLS's, I was once again spellbound just like the first time I came across them in May 1998. That see through affect and fully curved stat panel is still a work of art! Sometimes I wish I should have just kept my IIZ's just as another pair of stats but I guess that would have been too much of a luxury.
The source gear was all Esoteric digital playback systems, Transport/DAC and separate clock. That combination with the Jadis amplifiers was something I had not yet experienced with CLS's. Really top stuff and very extraordinary with fine recordings.
Just wanted to share my recent experience with the CLS, I still believe it's an absolute marvel of a true ML full range stat.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
Speaking of the CLS, these were designed in such a way to be full range stats that could reproduce fine music. Just the other weekend I had the opportunity of listening to a wonderful pair of CLSIIZ's set up really well, driven by a full array of Jadis amplifiers. Just a beautiful sound! These very similar Jadis monoblocks were also demoed in one of the highend shows to drive the Alsyvox Botichelli-X ribbons. I believe it was in Munich. Anyway, it goes to show that these stats still hold good value and when driven with the right type of gear and properly set up, they still perform at a remarkable level.
Of course the all updated version and full radical change from the CLS design to the CLX's is yet at another dimension. However, the moment I walked into the room and stared at those CLS's, I was once again spellbound just like the first time I came across them in May 1998. That see through affect and fully curved stat panel is still a work of art! Sometimes I wish I should have just kept my IIZ's just as another pair of stats but I guess that would have been too much of a luxury.
The source gear was all Esoteric digital playback systems, Transport/DAC and separate clock. That combination with the Jadis amplifiers was something I had not yet experienced with CLS's. Really top stuff and very extraordinary with fine recordings.
Just wanted to share my recent experience with the CLS, I still believe it's an absolute marvel of a true ML full range stat.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
Ronin
Well-known member
Thanks Big Dog (and way to go Cameron!)
The speakers sound fine and are still in the living room. I have had some input on the electronics etc but not by ML. The work was done a while ago but the electronics have been updated, the panels are new (installed) and they sound great. I power them with a Michi X5 (600 into 4ohm) and that is working wonderfully. While the sound was excellent, I grabbed a Chord Hugo TT2 so now I'm running PC to a Matrix SPDIF to the TT2 and XLR to the amp. That changed the detail quite a bit. The M scaler is a possibility as well in the future. The AKM DAC in the Michi is pretty darn good but this was an improvement.
There is a pair of CLX near me. 12 years old with original panels and $10k. I'll stick with my CLS. The electronics with the CLSIIz panels and the dual subs round out most any music nicely and I listen to a variety from Jazz, acoustic piano and guitar, hip hop, Floyd, Govi, BTO, and southern rock (grew up in Florida).
I think the additional terminals may be a bonus for some but I'm definetly not going to bi-amp. I really don't see much advantage either to bi-wire. So I'm running good quality Kimber Cable to the LF terminals and running Iconoclast SPTPC jumpers to the HF terminals. I don't think based on the design + mods it really gets any better that that simple approach.
I can always upgrade other components and my last two amps were Dag and Pass but I'm happy with Michi. I might go back and try a server again but the last N100H really did not do a lot and I love the GUI the PC allows as its HDMI right to a 65in screen.
Thank you for the check in. I think these are keepers and the sound for the money (value) is pretty good even though I paid a premium for the condition, new panels etc. Also supposedly these have a steep ML history but it really does not matter much at this point. Just sound and condition.
Sounds great Ronin!
It's all about the synergy, regardless of price and type of gear, one size doesn't fit all, and it's a highly custom fit one that will suit only the owner/listener for that matter. I've heard some very lofty gear, close to a million bucks, averaging about 700 - 800 grand. Yet still something's a miss... but the owner doesn't think so simply because it costs more than a house! So who's to argue.
The systems that have really come up strong and delivered all the goods, I've noticed three basic elements:
1. System & component matching towards room parameters.
2. High quality and clear source gear, such that it reveals exactly what's on the recording, being more neutral and less colored.
3. The most simple systems, sound far better- less points of connections, less interactions with the source signal, the greater the definition and purity (no complicated X-overs, no gizmos, bells & whistles, and very good AC mains wiring with proper grounding).
Certainly looks like you've found those matching components to meet the above, especially after using Dan D'Ag & Pass Labs amps. BTW, which DAg and Pass Labs amps did you own previously? Obviously seems like the Michi is the one, it's simply giving more of that synergy you're after.
CLX's on the used market would be somewhere within that 10 grand range... in Aus that would be around 16grand, which is correct. The last pair of used CLX's sold exactly for 16grand, and that happened to be the very last pair available here. People are still looking out for them but to no avail, and they don't prefer the hybrids either, so now they end up with either Maggie's or refurbed Apogee's. The CLX's being bigger also require a much larger room, and then owners are tempted to change other things; amplifiers, source gear, cables etc., and the vicious cycle begins...
Over here, people who have sold their CLX's have two main issues with them: their amplifiers weren't up to the task or their rooms didn't match well. The room is so important, and just because it sounded great at the demo or dealer's showroom, doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to excel at anyone's home. This has to be properly assessed before spending the money.
The CLS properly set up with the right gear and perhaps matching subs, for those who prefer lower notes, is pretty much it!
As for me, I don't use subs, for my music genre and listening habits, subs aren't required at all. I just prefer the purity of the CLX stats full range. It does take quite an effort to fully grip the triple stators / double Mylar diaphragms on their bass sections. So far I've found that Class A amplifier topology controls these triple stators extremely well! The Class A mods done on my tube monoblocks did cost a pretty penny but it was well worth it. Like I said, once that synergy and perfect balance is achieved, just enjoy it! Why try to change it, doesn't make any sense.
Enjoy those fine tunes mate!
Cheers, RJ
It's all about the synergy, regardless of price and type of gear, one size doesn't fit all, and it's a highly custom fit one that will suit only the owner/listener for that matter. I've heard some very lofty gear, close to a million bucks, averaging about 700 - 800 grand. Yet still something's a miss... but the owner doesn't think so simply because it costs more than a house! So who's to argue.
The systems that have really come up strong and delivered all the goods, I've noticed three basic elements:
1. System & component matching towards room parameters.
2. High quality and clear source gear, such that it reveals exactly what's on the recording, being more neutral and less colored.
3. The most simple systems, sound far better- less points of connections, less interactions with the source signal, the greater the definition and purity (no complicated X-overs, no gizmos, bells & whistles, and very good AC mains wiring with proper grounding).
Certainly looks like you've found those matching components to meet the above, especially after using Dan D'Ag & Pass Labs amps. BTW, which DAg and Pass Labs amps did you own previously? Obviously seems like the Michi is the one, it's simply giving more of that synergy you're after.
CLX's on the used market would be somewhere within that 10 grand range... in Aus that would be around 16grand, which is correct. The last pair of used CLX's sold exactly for 16grand, and that happened to be the very last pair available here. People are still looking out for them but to no avail, and they don't prefer the hybrids either, so now they end up with either Maggie's or refurbed Apogee's. The CLX's being bigger also require a much larger room, and then owners are tempted to change other things; amplifiers, source gear, cables etc., and the vicious cycle begins...
Over here, people who have sold their CLX's have two main issues with them: their amplifiers weren't up to the task or their rooms didn't match well. The room is so important, and just because it sounded great at the demo or dealer's showroom, doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to excel at anyone's home. This has to be properly assessed before spending the money.
The CLS properly set up with the right gear and perhaps matching subs, for those who prefer lower notes, is pretty much it!
As for me, I don't use subs, for my music genre and listening habits, subs aren't required at all. I just prefer the purity of the CLX stats full range. It does take quite an effort to fully grip the triple stators / double Mylar diaphragms on their bass sections. So far I've found that Class A amplifier topology controls these triple stators extremely well! The Class A mods done on my tube monoblocks did cost a pretty penny but it was well worth it. Like I said, once that synergy and perfect balance is achieved, just enjoy it! Why try to change it, doesn't make any sense.
Enjoy those fine tunes mate!
Cheers, RJ
Ronin
Well-known member
The systems that have really come up strong and delivered all the goods, I've noticed three basic elements:
1. System & component matching towards room parameters.
2. High quality and clear source gear, such that it reveals exactly what's on the recording, being more neutral and less colored.
3. The most simple systems, sound far better- less points of connections, less interactions with the source signal, the greater the definition and purity (no complicated X-overs, no gizmos, bells & whistles, and very good AC mains wiring with proper grounding).
1. My room is tough as it is an "L" but I do the best I can with the walls etc.
2. I have always been a detail guy. You can overdo that and on a few recordings on the system less volume is needed to prevent fatigue. It is always on Piano acoustic guitar etc but then on Jazz and other types of music the detail is awesome.
3. Yep. I have had seperates etc etc. Now I'm essentially source-DAC-Amp-Speakers. I got one "gizmo" in there (the Matrix) but it seems to do a great job cleaning up the PC as a source. I could go streamer but the GUI is not as good and I really did not notice an improvement. At least on a previous system.
Certainly looks like you've found those matching components to meet the above, especially after using Dan D'Ag & Pass Labs amps. BTW, which DAg and Pass Labs amps did you own previously? Obviously seems like the Michi is the one, it's simply giving more of that synergy you're after.
I had the DAG Progression Int. Amp. Also the Pass X250.8. The Michi sounds awesome and I'm not putting it up with the DAG, but I'll put it at 95% for1/4 the price.
CLX is a risk and the room is not huge and L shaped so even though they look cool, they may not sound as good as the CLS w/ subs. Also the CLS have new panels. Some gear is no worries with a few years. Maggies, MLs, Tube gear etc worries me a bit. Also for the price of the CLX above the CLS, I can get a M Scaler and a case of James Boag!
As for me, I don't use subs, for my music genre and listening habits, subs aren't required at all. I just prefer the purity of the CLX stats full range.
I like subs if you can tune them. Some of my music like acoustic you never hear them. Jazz usually but light. Same for most rock but not all. Hip hop type or some New age they make themselves known. Even vibrate pictures on the wall. So when they don't show up I'm good. Same with when they are doing all the right things. However some recordings they get a bit tubby. That's just part of the experience I guess. If I only listened to say jazz and acoustic, I would sell them.
So far I've found that Class A amplifier topology controls these triple stators extremely well!
I'm a class A and A/B guy. Tried D and no thanks for what I prefer. Also I found wattage is an indicator of an amp but speakers want current. The Michi is delivering that. It seems to control the CLS really well.
Thank you and Cheers back at ya. PM or share a pic of your system. I'll be listening today- its 100 degrees today. Eventually outside just sucks....
Michael
1. System & component matching towards room parameters.
2. High quality and clear source gear, such that it reveals exactly what's on the recording, being more neutral and less colored.
3. The most simple systems, sound far better- less points of connections, less interactions with the source signal, the greater the definition and purity (no complicated X-overs, no gizmos, bells & whistles, and very good AC mains wiring with proper grounding).
1. My room is tough as it is an "L" but I do the best I can with the walls etc.
2. I have always been a detail guy. You can overdo that and on a few recordings on the system less volume is needed to prevent fatigue. It is always on Piano acoustic guitar etc but then on Jazz and other types of music the detail is awesome.
3. Yep. I have had seperates etc etc. Now I'm essentially source-DAC-Amp-Speakers. I got one "gizmo" in there (the Matrix) but it seems to do a great job cleaning up the PC as a source. I could go streamer but the GUI is not as good and I really did not notice an improvement. At least on a previous system.
Certainly looks like you've found those matching components to meet the above, especially after using Dan D'Ag & Pass Labs amps. BTW, which DAg and Pass Labs amps did you own previously? Obviously seems like the Michi is the one, it's simply giving more of that synergy you're after.
I had the DAG Progression Int. Amp. Also the Pass X250.8. The Michi sounds awesome and I'm not putting it up with the DAG, but I'll put it at 95% for1/4 the price.
CLX is a risk and the room is not huge and L shaped so even though they look cool, they may not sound as good as the CLS w/ subs. Also the CLS have new panels. Some gear is no worries with a few years. Maggies, MLs, Tube gear etc worries me a bit. Also for the price of the CLX above the CLS, I can get a M Scaler and a case of James Boag!
As for me, I don't use subs, for my music genre and listening habits, subs aren't required at all. I just prefer the purity of the CLX stats full range.
I like subs if you can tune them. Some of my music like acoustic you never hear them. Jazz usually but light. Same for most rock but not all. Hip hop type or some New age they make themselves known. Even vibrate pictures on the wall. So when they don't show up I'm good. Same with when they are doing all the right things. However some recordings they get a bit tubby. That's just part of the experience I guess. If I only listened to say jazz and acoustic, I would sell them.
So far I've found that Class A amplifier topology controls these triple stators extremely well!
I'm a class A and A/B guy. Tried D and no thanks for what I prefer. Also I found wattage is an indicator of an amp but speakers want current. The Michi is delivering that. It seems to control the CLS really well.
Thank you and Cheers back at ya. PM or share a pic of your system. I'll be listening today- its 100 degrees today. Eventually outside just sucks....
Michael
Leporello
Well-known member
I finally got around to looking at the back of my CLS II's. The rocker switches are set to "flat", how I've always run them, as did apparently the previous owner. But the switch looks cheapish. The most logical thing to do short of replacing the switch if it gave trouble, or even if it didn't and the previous owner just didn't want the switch handling the signals, would be to bypass the switch and just use extra binding posts for the flat response, wired directly. Does this make sense?
It goes to show that if you're selling a piece of gear that you have modified, the considerate thing to do for the next guy is document it, or make it really obvious what was done.
IMO it would make absolute zero sense to bi-amp (except to a subwoofer) or bi-wire these speakers. The Acoustat ESL's had separate signal step-up transformers for the highs and lows (which also helped shape the frequency response) and here it would have made some sense to bi-amp. But again, it would have been really helpful to label clearly what was done.
Ronin
Well-known member
My rocker switches are disconnected. The 2nd set of terminals are wired to a board with caps. My guess is original terminals are LF and now with the added board, the 2nd set is HF.
Bi amp makes no sense and really I dont see a bi wire advantage either.
And yes, TMR let me down here. The post was all about the "special" mods etc but at the end of the day, no documentation at all. I could of returned them though.
Bi amp makes no sense and really I dont see a bi wire advantage either.
And yes, TMR let me down here. The post was all about the "special" mods etc but at the end of the day, no documentation at all. I could of returned them though.
Good stuff maties!
Apart from the many virtues of the CLS, one of its weaknesses is the LF heft. There's plenty of LF detail, which I found more than adequate but on certain recordings as mentioned above, it can sound bit thin... hence the need for subs.
However, when I had the CLS and many other panel type speakers, I never used subs. It all depends on room dimensions/ acoustic parameters and listening habits. Even owing the CLX's now, I don't see any need for subs and I've tried a few (REL, Vandy's, and ML's BF subs). Although they did add plenty of weight and added LF enhancements, it simply killed the true purity of full range stats. These are meant to be driven full range. In fact, apart from the supreme attributes of the CLX's, one of its greatest strengths is actually the bass! It has a tremendous sense of agility, lighting speed and limitless extension both in top end as well, with total transparency. What I found by adding subs is all of that wonderfulness is smeared... this is just my opinion.
At one point I was seriously considering the Neoliths but that requires a much larger room.
The way I see it is such: that if you're going to own a full range stat and plan on using subs then might as well just get any of ML's hybrid designs... also partnering the CLX's with subs is pretty much the Neoliths! This is also going back towards the Statements Evo-II's with added sub towers. That was a huge affair, and one such system I get a chance to listen to every year in Feb. However, the Statements are totally different from top to bottom, they're meant for big grand soundstaging, like a full scale orchestra, a full scaled version of the bass organ or synthesised bass, and in this case subs are definitely required! I agree on that notion. I've also experienced it so I do realise it's limitations.
However, when it comes to full range stats, properly set up and properly driven with the right type of gear, will deliver a truly unique presentation. One that is free from artificial enhancements and one that is absolutely pure. This is just my preference, and my 50cts worth... doesn't necessarily have to be the same with others.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
Apart from the many virtues of the CLS, one of its weaknesses is the LF heft. There's plenty of LF detail, which I found more than adequate but on certain recordings as mentioned above, it can sound bit thin... hence the need for subs.
However, when I had the CLS and many other panel type speakers, I never used subs. It all depends on room dimensions/ acoustic parameters and listening habits. Even owing the CLX's now, I don't see any need for subs and I've tried a few (REL, Vandy's, and ML's BF subs). Although they did add plenty of weight and added LF enhancements, it simply killed the true purity of full range stats. These are meant to be driven full range. In fact, apart from the supreme attributes of the CLX's, one of its greatest strengths is actually the bass! It has a tremendous sense of agility, lighting speed and limitless extension both in top end as well, with total transparency. What I found by adding subs is all of that wonderfulness is smeared... this is just my opinion.
At one point I was seriously considering the Neoliths but that requires a much larger room.
The way I see it is such: that if you're going to own a full range stat and plan on using subs then might as well just get any of ML's hybrid designs... also partnering the CLX's with subs is pretty much the Neoliths! This is also going back towards the Statements Evo-II's with added sub towers. That was a huge affair, and one such system I get a chance to listen to every year in Feb. However, the Statements are totally different from top to bottom, they're meant for big grand soundstaging, like a full scale orchestra, a full scaled version of the bass organ or synthesised bass, and in this case subs are definitely required! I agree on that notion. I've also experienced it so I do realise it's limitations.
However, when it comes to full range stats, properly set up and properly driven with the right type of gear, will deliver a truly unique presentation. One that is free from artificial enhancements and one that is absolutely pure. This is just my preference, and my 50cts worth... doesn't necessarily have to be the same with others.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
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