New Balanced Force 210 and 212 subs!

[RonR]

. . . shutting down the subwoofer of the Montis and use the ES panel for pure mid and high frequency and let the Sub 212 take care of the low end. It could sound better as the Sub 212 is a lot better in all aspects in compare to the subwoofer in the Montis. . . . The power of amp to play low end comes if someone is using ML theos or ESL speakers which do not have active woofers, but a large bass driver.

I think this question is very interesting. Especially where a large bass driver is not internally powered attenuating that internal bass driver and raising the low-pass frequency of the external subwoofers to cover the frequencies handled by the internal bass driver seems like an interesting experiment.

GaryG, Have you experimented with this idea on the Neoliths?

 

[sandeep]

I have received my BF 212 and have now downloaded the Montis-10DB custom profile. What i understood that this profile is meant to be used with Montis as you dialled down the Montis Subwoofer bass control to -10DB . There is a setting called Montis0DB as well, which probably means that your montis Subwoofer will play its part when the bass control knob is set to 0db and the frequency which the sub cannot play will be taken care by 212 , plus the timing and integration will be precisely accurate among the three subs. Kindly correct me if i am wrong here.

These all doesn't apply when you watch Movie and use the LFE input connection method, here the AV processor or AV receiver does the bass management. This is what i have understood from reading the manual.

My clarification with ML technical support would be :

a. If using 212 and custom profile Montis -10DB, a listener is expected to listen better overall quality of bass while allowing the life of active sub in the montis to last longer.
b. If using 212 and custom profile Montis -10DB, a listener is is expected to listen better low end sound because the Active subwoofer in the Montis do not come close to the performance and quality of the 212.
c. If using 212 and custom profile Montis 0 DB, a listener is is expected to listen all three active Subwoofer ,seamlessly integrated and well timed. This also allows the soundstage at the low frequency to be wider . An example if a bass guitar is playing on my right should actually sound from the right Montis speaker.. here, if the low end base guitar is playing by 212, you probably cannot make out if the sound is coming from the right, which directly contradicts with how the performance is recorded vs how you are actually listening.

Can someone clarify my understanding on point a,b and c?

Thanks and Regards,

Sandeep

Note: I have send this post as a email to ML technical support

 

[sandeep]

Response below from ML:

Response below from ML:

Hello Sandeep,
I do a lot of the setups at shows so was asked to weigh in on these setup questions.
First thing to clarify is how the level control works on the Montis. I have seen you also on the MLO site asking some more. I will try and capture them all.
To start, the level control on the Montis starts its downward slope at 100hz and is a taper that will end up at 10db down at the very bottom of the range but will still have substantial output at the 80- 100hz range so cannot be considered an on/off control. The purpose of that control is to help the bass fit in smaller rooms, but to still produce the range of the speaker.
Noe lets get the a, b, cs out of the way first.
A: life won’t be very effected as the driver will still be active in most of its range. May have a slight impact but is not a promise or purpose of the control.
B: Yes, dedicated sub should have more power, detail, dynamics than what is in the Montis, but a woofer designed solely for the deepest bass cannot have the response we need for the Montis up into the lower midrange.
C: Since the Montis woofers still have output into bass range, even if 10 db down, you will still get steering where appropriate. Understand that the very lowest frequencies won’t provide directional cues. A bass guitar for example doesn’t go below 40 hz and most of the notes are going to be above 100hz so in the case of that instrument, the Montis level control will only have a subtle effect on localization.
You also are apparently using this in a AV situation, and yes, the LFE channel is controlled at the AV processor, which you will typically set at 80hz and then the level to what sounds fun for home theater.
But on music that HT level may not be what you want.
My suggestions:
Set AV processor so that on the subwoofer mode it says “both” or Ultra or whatever mode allows bass frequencies to go the R/L as well as the sub. Set your R/L to “large” so they will see the bass in its entirety.
I would suggest you start with the 0db filter on the sub. Then, set the sub to be musically correct using the top panel controls and then, use the level control on the Montis where you like. What will happen as there is no .1 channel in music, you will still get all the bass in the right place on music but not have to readjust on movies.
Understand that your ears will ultimately be the final judge. We have lots to adjust here so be patient but hopefully you have a better insight to get to your answer quicker.
Hope this helps.






Peter Soderberg
Western Regional Director
MartinLogan LTD

 

[sleepysurf]

Interesting insights from Peter! I just hosted our local audio club yesterday, and they were "blown away" with the improved bass from adding a 2nd BF210 sub (despite my Summit woofers attenuated -10dB at 25 and 50 Hz). Now that the 2nd sub should be fully broken in, I'll run PBK again, and load the "0/0" Summit filter again (instead of the "-10/-10" filter) then manually adjust the Summit woofer controls using XTZ Room Analyzer, to see if I can further improve the in-room bass response. So many possible permutations!

 

[sandeep]

Last night i spent hours dialling down the 212 to get better result in the REW, including rearranging my bass traps. Phase at 1 o clock worked best for my room and 25hz knob didn't made any noticeable difference , therefore left at 0. The level is set for 70db and 80db peak.

Now have to do all over again after loading the Montis0db profile . Once everything is well set , it will be easier for the PbK to take it close to perfection.

 

[sleepysurf]

Last night i spent hours dialling down the 212 to get better result in the REW, including rearranging my bass traps. Phase at 1 o clock worked best for my room and 25hz knob didn't made any noticeable difference , therefore left at 0. The level is set for 70db and 80db peak.

Now have to do all over again after loading the Montis0db profile . Once everything is well set , it will be easier for the PbK to take it close to perfection.

My understanding is that it's best to run PBK first to optimize the subs overall in-room response, then install the appropriate filters and/or manually tweak further.

Your REW plot shows excellent bass from 18-20 Hz, but significant nulls at ~35, ~50, and ~70-90 Hz, with a 15+ dB range in bass response.

PBK should smooth out the peaks (but not nulls). However, trying different sub locations along with different Montis woofer settings should help minimize those nulls, and get you to a <10 dB range in bass response. To optimize phase, I suggest measuring a continuous pink noise bass response and watching the frequency response while manually adjusting the BF212 phase control. In my case, I found that 180 degrees worked best. BTW, I don't think the BF sub phase control is actually continuously variable, but rather has four distinct settings (0, 90, 180, and 270). Hopefully Peter will chime in on this, as I'm finding his comments very helpful!

 

[sandeep]

I have asked two more questions :

A. Do my Anthem A5 power amplifier just powers the ES panel of the Montis or it also have some power contribution to the sub? In the forum, a few people are confused about this.

B. My 212 just replaced my paradigm Sub15. Paradigm adviced not to use my isotek power conditioner for the sub as it have built in power filter. What is ML's advice on using isotek premiere power cord or even the cord and the isotek Polaris power conditioner base .


http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/discovery/evo3-polaris/

http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/get-connected/evo3-premier/

Response from Peter from ML

Yes, that one is confusing to many. Your amp provides the signal but in the low frequencies, we use a resistive load that essentially creates a voltage out of the voltage/current that is coming from your amp. If memory serves, I think it is about 3K ohm load but don’t quote me. What that means is that the quality of the bass end of your signal is still determined by the quality of your amp. So if you had an old tube amp with less than well controlled bass, the bass provided by the Montis will be sloppy. If you amp is known for good control, your Montis will have that quality. So, although there is little current demand at the end of the spectrum, the quality of your amp will be determine the quality of your speaker. I remember early in the Summits days where I had a dealer who got a pair, called me up complaining about sloppy bottom end. I went to that dealer and he was using an old Cary V12 and yes, the bass wasn’t so hot. He believe like many that the amp didn’t matter in the bottom end. We switched over a Levinson and the bass was completely different and better. We do this high level to low level conversion so that the speaker will stay coherent overall, otherwise we would have a disjointed sound with a solid state bottom end and a loose tuby top end if you mixed amps.
To power filters, yes, you can have too much of a good thing and depending on design of the filters, you can overdamp a line, or create some current on rush limiting. Isotech is an excellent brand so I wouldn’t fear it. Since most sub amps are switching power supplies so they can get max output with high efficiency, there is potential for some high frequency noise being created. Nothing in the design descriptions make me believe that there will be an issue with your Isotech. The general recommendation of not wanting one is because most people use a cheap power strip witch can create issues. Experiment away. As to power cable, by all means. Your Montis will like them as well.

 

[sandeep]

My understanding is that it's best to run PBK first to optimize the subs overall in-room response, then install the appropriate filters and/or manually tweak further.

Your REW plot shows excellent bass from 18-20 Hz, but significant nulls at ~35, ~50, and ~70-90 Hz, with a 15+ dB range in bass response.

PBK should smooth out the peaks (but not nulls). However, trying different sub locations along with different Montis woofer settings should help minimize those nulls, and get you to a <10 dB range in bass response. To optimize phase, I suggest measuring a continuous pink noise bass response and watching the frequency response while manually adjusting the BF212 phase control. In my case, I found that 180 degrees worked best. BTW, I don't think the BF sub phase control is actually continuously variable, but rather has four distinct settings (0, 90, 180, and 270). Hopefully Peter will chime in on this, as I'm finding his comments very helpful!

I have actually found different results by putting in on 180 and just the beginning of the 180 degree mark.. which made me to comment 1 o clock position. The Nulls reduced comparing to the first test, but still hanging around. I guess i have to switch off the Montis and just run the REQ sweep while keeping my 212 On. The nulls we are seeing could be from the montis subwoofer which do not have a phase control dial. if it is true, then my only option is more bass traps or playing around with existing.

 

[sleepysurf]

The nulls we are seeing could be from the montis subwoofer which do not have a phase control dial. if it is true, then my only option is more bass traps or playing around with existing.

your thoughts please!

Yes. The bass output from the Montis and BF212 can "interfere" with one another, in addition to room effects, creating nulls and peaks. You can see this in REW by measuring the BF212 bass response alone (with the custom low pass filter turned off), then remeasuring with the Montis woofer setting at "0" and again at "-10" (with the custom filter still turned off).

If you can, temporarily place your BF212 in the "sweet spot" and then take REW measurements around the room at all possible sub placement locations, and see where you get the smoothest response (alternatively you can just do the "crawl test" as in this ML video... https://youtu.be/uzCIMufCQLk). Once the sub is optimally placed, run PBK again. Then run REW with various Montis woofer settings (and BF212 low pass filter options), along with manually adjusting BF212 phase, +/- minor 25 Hz adjustments. IMHO, bass traps are of secondary importance to everything else (but they definitely can help if large enough).

In my case, I discovered (thus far) that I prefer the bass from my dual BF210's "bumped up" a bit at 20-25 Hz, vs. an essentially flat response (as measured with XTZ). YMMV.

 

[sandeep]

Update: Loaded the Montis10DB, played around with REW and bass traps and panels and listening position = attached is before and after. This is without PBK.

With the Montis0DB profile and Montis set at 0DB, there is hardly any bass sound comes out of the 212.. it seems most work is done by the Montis Sub and the 212 just fills in the low end.. Peter i guess meant the same. With the custom profile Off, there is lot of bass, but it may not sound well blended or timed with Montis subwoofer.

I loaded the Montis-10DB profile and the bass opened up with lots of information - here keeping the Montis still at 0db doesn't hurt, but there will be overlapping low end played by all three sub and if timing is not correct on the overlapping zone, then it is bad.

What i understood is that with the custom profile, either you focus on getting those low end for which the 212 is for, OR, you let the 212 shine below 100hz while the Montis slops down -10db from 100hz to 29hz of its range.

From the ML page: http://www.martinlogan.com/balancedforce/custom-filters-firmware.php

The woofer sections of MartinLogan speakers are equalized to extend the bass response of their low frequency drivers. This equalization causes power from your external amplifier to be delivered to the woofers. Turning the bass control on the speaker to minus 3dB or minus 10dB (and letting the subwoofer fill in) relieves the load on your external amplifier, delivers more power for the upper bass and midrange, and allows the speakers to play louder. MartinLogan BalancedForce custom filters allow you to experiment and determine which method works best for you—letting the speakers play low bass to their fullest capability or letting the external subwoofer fill in. There is no right answer regarding which option to use. As always, we recommend that you try both options and trust your ears.

 

[sandeep]

update: Ended up using Montis -10db profile. I found the midrange and high end frequency opens up after putting the montis sub to -10db. The Anthem A5 amp have more room to provide power to the ES panel, then the sub. The improvement in the low range was also better using the 212 instead of the montis sub.. more clear and defined. Changed the stock black cable of the 212 with isotek premiere , and the bass clarity improved a lot, including noticeable noise reduction.

 

[sleepysurf]

update: Ended up using Montis -10db profile. I found the midrange and high end frequency opens up after putting the montis sub to -10db. The Anthem A5 amp have more room to provide power to the ES panel, then the sub. The improvement in the low range was also better using the 212 instead of the montis sub.. more clear and defined. Changed the stock black cable of the 212 with isotek premiere , and the bass clarity improved a lot, including noticeable noise reduction.

Same conclusion I reached with my Summits! However, I will continue "tweaking" in search of the ultimate SSS (speaker-sub-synergy)!

 

[sandeep]

Same conclusion I reached with my Summits! However, I will continue "tweaking" in search of the ultimate SSS (speaker-sub-synergy)!

Tip from Peter in this regard, while using custom filter Montis -10db and put the montis bass control to 0db or anything other then -10db.

To make sure phase is correct on the sub as it relates to the Montis, have someone stay at the sub while you listen to lower frequency range of a male singer. While someone switches the phase switch you should hear the focus of that voice be more solid when the phase is in best setting. 90degree tends to be the most common. That will satisfy the timing issue.


Peter Soderberg
Western Regional Director

 

[sleepysurf]

To make sure phase is correct on the sub as it relates to the Montis, have someone stay at the sub while you listen to lower frequency range of a male singer. While someone switches the phase switch you should hear the focus of that voice be more solid when the phase is in best setting. 90 degree tends to be the most common. That will satisfy the timing issue...

Sandeep, you should be able to use REW to objectively dial in the phase adjustment. Just measure a continuous pink noise RTA, and as you vary the phase dial, you'll see the bass output fluctuate around the Main/Sub crossover point. Adjust phase until you get the smoothest response at that point.

 

[sandeep]

Sandeep, you should be able to use REW to objectively dial in the phase adjustment. Just measure a continuous pink noise RTA, and as you vary the phase dial, you'll see the bass output fluctuate around the Main/Sub crossover point. Adjust phase until you get the smoothest response at that point.

Thanks, i did sweeps last night with Montis at 0db and found the best SPL still at 180 degree phase on the 212 I am preferring the montis at -10db and dealing the level up in 212 if i need to hear more power of the bass, this way the montis really shines at the midrange and above. I might go and listen to Anthem P2 mono design amp on the montis and see if i can hear better.

 

[Stefan_DR3]

I need to decide on getting a 212 or dual 210s. If I go single it has to go in the front left corner of the room due to size. If I go dual the preferred location is both units at the front of the room, near main speakers, below the screen. Is it bad to have the drive units firing at eachother? Example drawings in the ML user manual show both subs corner placed or placed on opposite side walls which I can't do.

 

[Gordon Gray]

To make sure phase is correct on the sub as it relates to the Montis, have someone stay at the sub while you listen to lower frequency range of a male singer. While someone switches the phase switch you should hear the focus of that voice be more solid when the phase is in best setting. 90degree tends to be the most common. That will satisfy the timing issue.


Peter Soderberg
Western Regional Director

Recently installed a REL T7i sub. Per REL, simply listen for the setting that provides the loudest, deepest bass from the sub to determine correct phase. Very easy to do with the REL, pretty simple and it works.

 

[twich54]

I need to decide on getting a 212 or dual 210s. If I go dual the preferred location is both units at the front of the room, near main speakers, below the screen.

is that 'preferred' location for aesthetics or for actual performance / sound / EQ ?

 

[Stefan_DR3]

is that 'preferred' location for aesthetics or for actual performance / sound / EQ ?

Aesthetics and physical space limitation. I could put one at the back of the room but then one woofer would be aimed out an opening to the rest of the house (does that matter?).

I prototyped the "dual front-sub" setup and posted my results (ARC quick measurements) in the ARC thread:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...Perfect-Bass-Kit)-measurements-and-discussion

It was definitely better than the one sub I am coming from. I regret now not trying the second sub at the back of the room before returning it.

 

[herbg]

Thanks, i did sweeps last night with Montis at 0db and found the best SPL still at 180 degree phase on the 212 I am preferring the montis at -10db and dealing the level up in 212 if i need to hear more power of the bass, this way the montis really shines at the midrange and above. I might go and listen to Anthem P2 mono design amp on the montis and see if i can hear better.

I'm experimenting with custom filters for my dual 210's to match up with my Spires.

I downloaded the -10db filter to the 210's and set the 35hz knob on the Spires to -10db. However, I'm not sure how I should change the settings on the 210's. Currently, the 210's are set as follows:

25Hz Level: 0db
Low-Pass Filter: 35Hz
Phase: 0 degrees

I intend to run PBK on both 210's after I dial this in. Then, I'll run Audyssey.