New Balanced Force 210 and 212 subs!

[sleepysurf]

Here's my "proof of concept" test measurement (using my old NHT Sub Two) which convinced me I'll be able to tame the nasty ~60 Hz room null by adding a separate sub. The BalancedForce 210 (with downloaded Summit filters, plus PBK room EQ), should give me a reasonably smooth lower bass response. I'll experiment with using the old NHT as a second stereo sub, but suspect it will get relegated back to sole Home Theater use.

The dark green trace is my current frequency response with the Summits alone. The blue trace is the result after adding the NHT sub (along a mid side wall, and with minimal "tweaking"). The yellow trace was a quick test to see if the XTZ Room Analyzer could measure sub phase changes, which it apparently can (at least indirectly).

 

[sleepysurf]

My BF 210 has arrived! Custom black ash top looks great with the piano black cabinet (I was afraid a piano black top would get scratched). Overall fit and finish are superb. Unfortunately, won't have time to start dialing it in with PBK until next weekend. I'll post more pics, and XTZ measurements as I go.

I was originally planning on building a walnut end table enclosure to fit over it, but might just leave it as is.

 

[InterMechanico]

I was originally planning on building a walnut end table enclosure to fit over it, but might just leave it as is.

View attachment 16805

There is a ton of Peruvian Walnut on the market, and it's pretty inexpensive. Looks great, by the way.

 

[sleepysurf]

Here's the initial (fresh out of the box) sub/room response of my new ML BF210 sub, measured with XTZ Room Analyzer II Pro, prior to breaking in, or employing PBK/room EQ. Note, measurement is VERY dependent on both sub and mic location, so doesn't really mean much at this point (other than confirming how low it can go).

 

[RUR]

Looks pretty good for an un-EQ'd response, Alan. When you measure for decay, best to do it at ~80dB so that you're 40dB above typical residential room noise floor.

Look forward to the PBK EQ'd measurements. When you post them, please also show the enlarged version of decay, as well as FR.

 

[JonFo]

Congrats Alan, nice sub!

+1 to Ken's requests.

 

[sleepysurf]

Here's repeated measurements of Summits alone, and Summits + BF210 sub, including room decay with latter. I measured at highest SPL's that XTZ allows (but XTZ automatically attenuates if too high). The GREEN trace is Summits alone, and BLUE trace is Summits + BF210 (located left mid side wall, level set at "5", phase at 90 degrees, no PBK adjustments).

I'm waiting for the sub to break-in a bit longer before running PBK. Unfortunately, I just realized that PBK will probably have limited utility, as it only measures and applies EQ for the SUB/room response, rather than the SUMMITS+SUB/room response. Looks like I'll need to use XTZ and manually "dial in" the BF210 as best I can.

Also, of note, I d/l and installed the default "Summit" filter (for 25 and 50 Hz controls set to "0"), but found that I, likewise, needed to manually adjust the BF210 low pass filter to best integrate with my Summits PLUS the room. Applying that downloaded filter did not eliminate the ~60 Hz null (low-pass filter apparently too low). I'll play around with the various Summit woofer settings and filter permutations at a later time, but am happy to have already significantly improved my overall bass response.

 

[JonFo]

That's a great start Alan. The decay graph looks pretty good for no EQ, it should do even better once the PBK is applied to the new sub.

 

[sleepysurf]

As expected, the PBK isn't much use in my setup, as it only equalizes the SUB/Room response. I've actually found the XTZ Room Analyzer to be more helpful, as I measured each Summit bass/room response individually, then "tweaked" their 25 and 50 Hz settings individually for the flattest room response. I then re-measured with the Summits running full range PLUS the BF210, and manually "tweaked" the sub settings to get the overall flattest response averaged over three listening positions. Here's where I am so far.





I'll try running the PBK again in a week or so, and see if the EQ can bring up the lowest octave a tad more. However, I'm not sure what I can do about that ~100 Hz peak. Will probably need to play around with my "acoustic bookshelves" absorption/diffusion ratio, and see what that does!

Overall though, I'm thrilled with the improvement thus far after adding the BF210!

 

[sleepysurf]

Interesting observation today! Just for the "helluvit", I was playing around with my BF210 settings, and discovered that attenuating the 25 Hz control (minus 5-10 dB), actually increased and flattened the measurable (and audible) low bass in that region!! I presume that's because the subs 25 Hz output is interfering with my Summits 25 Hz output at the listening position. Didn't have time to play with phase to see how I can further optimize the two, but that's next on my agenda. As expected, boosting the subs 25 Hz control attenuated the total 25 Hz output further! I forgot to save the XTZ plots, but will repeat and post next weekend. Overall, I'm very pleased with the speed and musicality of the BF210, especially compared to my old NHT Sub Two.

 

[sleepysurf]

Jon Iverson has a review of the BalancedForce 212 in the Oct Stereophile, who paired two of them with his Prodigy's. The review is quite favorable overall, though he calls it a "draw" when comparing them to his older Descent i's. His main complaints were the Windows-only PBK software (and related issues trying to run PBK on a Vista laptop), along with the owners manual lacking details on best way to hook up as a stereo pair. He also notes (as I have found) the limitation with PBK not being able to truly measure/correct for sub(s) plus mains plus room effects, thus requiring manual tweaking for optimally "dialing in."

FYI, I'm still "dialing in" my single BF210, but making good progress. Of note, I hosted a mini-meet last week for our local audiophile society, and one of our newer members brought his Pro Audio SMAART 7 measurement software. He measured the BF210 alone, and then with the Summits, and commented that the Summit-specific low-pass filter for the BF210 did a nice job of time-alignment. He felt that most of my residual bass issues were room related, and recommended more extensive bass trapping, plus consideration for a second BF210. I'll address the acoustics first, while starting to lobby "she who must be obeyed" re the latter!

 

[sleepysurf]

After optimizing my single BF210 as much as possible (given limited room placement options), I still had significant bass issues at the sweet spot. I opted to get a 2nd BF210, and relocated both behind my couch/listening position (2nd slaved off the primary, thus running as a dual mono pair). As hoped (and expected) the 2nd sub really filled in the lower registers! Turns out, setting my Summits 25 and 50 Hz woofer controls both to -10dB, and using the matching custom BF210 filter, really made a big difference. Overall, bass is much tighter, and mids/highs also cleaner from the Summit panels. Here's the XTZ Analyzer trace. The blue trace is with single sub, and green trace with both subs running.



We've also rearranged the family/listening room a bit, so I'll probably experiment further with the subs at mid side-walls when I have some free time. Thus far, however, I'm really pleased.

 

[sandeep]

Guys,
Instead of starting a new thread, thought of posting it here.

Getting myself the 212 next week to match with pair of Montis in a HT setup and replacing my Paradigm Sub15. My Anthem AVM60 coming in next week which have dual SUB XLR out. To use the Montis 0DB custom filter in the 212 and use the Sub for both LFE channel and as low pass filter for all other ML speakers (Montis, StageX, FX2, FX), should the AVM60 sub out to be connected to LFE XLR input or Left / Right XLR input of the 212.

Also, if anyone can explain the difference between Montis 0DB vs -10DB custom profile in english... i am still not able to translate the technical language clearly

 

[R.I.P]

Guys,
Instead of starting a new thread, thought of posting it here.

Getting myself the 212 next week to match with pair of Montis in a HT setup and replacing my Paradigm Sub15. My Anthem AVM60 coming in next week which have dual SUB XLR out. To use the Montis 0DB custom filter in the 212 and use the Sub for both LFE channel and as low pass filter for all other ML speakers (Montis, StageX, FX2, FX), should the AVM60 sub out to be connected to LFE XLR input or Left / Right XLR input of the 212.

Also, if anyone can explain the difference between Montis 0DB vs -10DB custom profile in english... i am still not able to translate the technical language clearly

If by dual sub XLR out you mean 2 left and right XLR out.

Look at the connection at the source this will give you clue how to connect to Subwoofer at the other end.

I do not know much about home theatre set up. However may be the case that single L and R XLR out

needs to be connected to 212 L and R XLR in.

If the AVM 60 offers not L or R but one XLR out for subwoofer then, I do not know, but perhaps needs to

be connected to single LFE XLR in at 212.

From what I have gathered after reading above thread.

PBK adjusts for subwoofer and room. What is needed is software such as XTZ Room Analyzer.

With the help of XTZ Room Analyzer you will be able to correct for Montis + Subwoofer + Room.

I have never tried this therefore not sure exactly how this functions. You have to download on USB

Montis loudspeaker audio profile. And then upload it to the 212 for perfect time alignment with Montis.

This filter will help but still you may need to manually set the low frequency controls of Montis

loudspeakers.

Hope the above helps. Sorry if it does not help. Unable to do better since I am not well versed in this

area.

 

[sleepysurf]

Guys,
Instead of starting a new thread, thought of posting it here.

Getting myself the 212 next week to match with pair of Montis in a HT setup and replacing my Paradigm Sub15. My Anthem AVM60 coming in next week which have dual SUB XLR out. To use the Montis 0DB custom filter in the 212 and use the Sub for both LFE channel and as low pass filter for all other ML speakers (Montis, StageX, FX2, FX), should the AVM60 sub out to be connected to LFE XLR input or Left / Right XLR input of the 212.

Also, if anyone can explain the difference between Montis 0DB vs -10DB custom profile in english... i am still not able to translate the technical language clearly

Here's the explanation for potential benefit of dialing down the Montis woofer settings when pairing with a sub (from the ML BF 210/212 page on custom filters)...

Why do some BalancedForce custom filters have multiple options?

One of the benefits of adding a subwoofer to a speaker system is to relieve your main speakers from having to play low bass. It has long been a common practice for MartinLogan to provide a bass control on our floorstanding speakers. Some early MartinLogan speakers adjusted bass by minus 3dB. More recent models with PoweredForce woofers allow adjustments of plus or minus 10dB.

The woofer sections of MartinLogan speakers are equalized to extend the bass response of their low frequency drivers. This equalization causes power from your external amplifier to be delivered to the woofers. Turning the bass control on the speaker to minus 3dB or minus 10dB (and letting the subwoofer fill in) relieves the load on your external amplifier, delivers more power for the upper bass and midrange, and allows the speakers to play louder. MartinLogan BalancedForce custom filters allow you to experiment and determine which method works best for you—letting the speakers play low bass to their fullest capability or letting the external subwoofer fill in. There is no right answer regarding which option to use. As always, we recommend that you try both options and trust your ears.

In my recent experience with Summits and two BF 210's, the midrange and high's are definitely improved (cleaner and more dynamic) by running the Summit 25 and 50 Hz controls at - 10 dB, with the corresponding downloaded BF sub filters, and letting the subs internal amps handle those lower frequencies. That's probably somewhat dependant on your power amp, plus room, so I suggest trying both options. As mentioned, you still need to manually dial in the sub phase, volume, and the 25 Hz settings.

Using XTZ Room Analyzer, REW, or Omnimic, etc can really help with the latter, but there's also a learning curve for those too.

 

[R.I.P]

Guys,
Instead of starting a new thread, thought of posting it here.

Getting myself the 212 next week to match with pair of Montis in a HT setup and replacing my Paradigm Sub15. My Anthem AVM60 coming in next week which have dual SUB XLR out. To use the Montis 0DB custom filter in the 212 and use the Sub for both LFE channel and as low pass filter for all other ML speakers (Montis, StageX, FX2, FX), should the AVM60 sub out to be connected to LFE XLR input or Left / Right XLR input of the 212.

Also, if anyone can explain the difference between Montis 0DB vs -10DB custom profile in english... i am still not able to translate the technical language clearly

The XLR SUB out at the AVM60 end should be connected to 212 LFE XLR input. LFE XLR is for audio video playback through processer.

The L and R XLR input at 212 is for connecting to audiophile preamplifier and used when listening to music.

 

[sandeep]

The XLR SUB out at the AVM60 end should be connected to 212 LFE XLR input. LFE XLR is for audio video playback through processer.

The L and R XLR input at 212 is for connecting to audiophile preamplifier and used when listening to music.

Thanks, the AVM60 is dual SUB out and not L & R out. So, as you said, it is ideal to connect it to LFE input of the 212.

 

[sandeep]

Here's the explanation for potential benefit of dialing down the Montis woofer settings when pairing with a sub (from the ML BF 210/212 page on custom filters)...



In my recent experience with Summits and two BF 210's, the midrange and high's are definitely improved (cleaner and more dynamic) by running the Summit 25 and 50 Hz controls at - 10 dB, with the corresponding downloaded BF sub filters, and letting the subs internal amps handle those lower frequencies. That's probably somewhat dependant on your power amp, plus room, so I suggest trying both options. As mentioned, you still need to manually dial in the sub phase, volume, and the 25 Hz settings.

Using XTZ Room Analyzer, REW, or Omnimic, etc can really help with the latter, but there's also a learning curve for those too.

I have read that bit from the custom filter page. What i understood is that i should apply the Montis-10DB if i set the Montis bass control knob at -10db, that closely equals to shutting down the subwoofer of the Montis and use the ES panel for pure mid and high frequency and let the Sub 212 take care of the low end. It could sound better as the Sub 212 is a lot better in all aspects in compare to the subwoofer in the Montis. On the other hand, if i use Montis0DB filter, it is allowing the active montis subwoofer to play as is and the 212 just fills the gap, say between 18hz to 35hz. This could give a wider soundstage and bass separation . I guess here we have to trust our ears .

I have the Anthem A5 power amp which just powers the ES panels and not the subwoofer of the Montis - they are active woofers with class-D 200w amp on each. The power of amp to play low end comes if someone is using ML theos or ESL speakers which do not have active woofers, but a large bass driver.

 

[sleepysurf]

... I have the Anthem A5 power amp which just powers the ES panels and not the subwoofer of the Montis - they are active woofers with class-D 200w amp on each. The power of amp to play low end comes if someone is using ML theos or ESL speakers which do not have active woofers, but a large bass driver.

I was under the impression that the Montis (and other ML speakers with active woofers) still receives current from your main amp, from which the musical signal is extracted and then sent to the Class D woofer amp(s). I don't know how much additional current (if any) is diverted to the stat panels if the woofer(s) are attenuated, but my gut feeling (based solely on listening) is that it can make a difference. I'll see if I can measure a difference in SPL's (if any) with XTZ.

 

[sleepysurf]

... I'll see if I can measure a difference in SPL's (if any) with XTZ.

Just ran a quick full range XTZ measurement with Summit 25 and 50 Hz woofers at -10, 0, +10 dB. NO significant difference in upper bass, midrange, or highs, so Sandeep is apparently correct. Alternatively, perhaps my C-J Premier 350 amp is providing so much current that it doesn't matter. Perhaps somebody with a real engineering background (or better yet, somebody from ML) will chime in with more insight.

Regardless, I still recommend trying all permutations (with/without attenuation and matching filters) and let your ears (and/or measurements) decide!