Neolith debuts at Munich High End

[User211]

Well I thought it was the same on both days. Panels can take hundreds of hours to break in, so defo not that. Just the recordings you heard most likely Kedar.

 

[bonzo]

Well I thought it was the same on both days. Panels can take hundreds of hours to break in, so defo not that. Just the recordings you heard most likely Kedar.

You didn't go on Friday

 

[beanbag]

What is the difference in sound between a panel with high tension and low tension anyway?

BTW, the panels only have tension in the vertical direction. They can't have tension in the horizontal direction because then you couldn't maintain a curved shape.
So I don't see how it is particularly harder to set the tension in this panel vs any other.

 

[User211]

You didn't go on Friday

True but you said you didn't like it on Saturday. Confused. All I meant was it was the same on both days I went.

 

[User211]

What is the difference in sound between a panel with high tension and low tension anyway?

BTW, the panels only have tension in the vertical direction. They can't have tension in the horizontal direction because then you couldn't maintain a curved shape.
So I don't see how it is particularly harder to set the tension in this panel vs any other.

Too high a tension and it can't move properly (not enough excursion) and sounds pretty bad. Too low and it sounds poor and looses HF.

I'm only it guessing it might be harder or might not. TBH it should be set by a machine these days I would have thought. Any trouble with that machine could cause issues.

 

[JonFo]

Regarding panel tension and break in, I have instrumented proof (will need to go dig it out) that a Monolith panel changes it's sound after 20 to 40 hrs of break-in.
When I purchased the replacement set in 2006, they took the better part of a week to run in. So there is some physical adaptation they do in that period that affects the low- and the high end as that's where I recall seeing the variance.

Now, all that said, I'd have a hard time believing that ML shipped over a prototype that had hardly been used. This is most likely a Beta unit with many hrs on the clock. More likely it was room, setup and or other equipment issues that led to the reported variance between Friday and Saturday.

Also, they were likely over-energizing the room at high volumes and causing it to ring, which makes any speaker sound bad.

 

[Bernard]

Well I thought it was the same on both days. Panels can take hundreds of hours to break in, so defo not that. Just the recordings you heard most likely Kedar.

What music were they using? Was it mostly acoustic or electronic?

 

[bonzo]

What music were they using? Was it mostly acoustic or electronic?

They were playing music I don't like. I got to audition some of my reference songs though - Sax and Piano came from Lee Morgans Candy (Bluenote Jazz), midrange female vocals from Natalie Dessay's Caro Nome (Verdi - Rigoletto), Bach's Kantaten 140 for some classical choir and the AcDc You shook me all night long. My usual demos include this, the live version of Stairway to Heaven from How the west was won, Cecillia Bartolli's Griselda from the Vivaldi album, and Allan Taylor's Wheel of Fortune from the Stockfisch CD just because that has high quality recording.

Justin's, meanwhile, is electronic music :eek1:

 

[Rich]

BTW, the panels only have tension in the vertical direction. They can't have tension in the horizontal direction because then you couldn't maintain a curved shape.

This is false. Source: I have actually witnessed the process at the factory. There is tension applied in both the vertical and horizontal directions.

So I don't see how it is particularly harder to set the tension in this panel vs any other.

It is done by hand-stretching the Mylar over the panel, so it stands to reason that the larger the panel, the harder it is to apply tension correctly.

 

[cstory]

Some comments on the Neolith from Jeff Fritz at Soundstage.

http://www.soundstageglobal.com/ind...eaker-part-one-martinlogan-estelon-and-magico

There seems to be a lot of divergent information on the expected price. <$100,000, I sure hope so.

 

[User211]

Regarding panel tension and break in, I have instrumented proof (will need to go dig it out) that a Monolith panel changes it's sound after 20 to 40 hrs of break-in.
When I purchased the replacement set in 2006, they took the better part of a week to run in. So there is some physical adaptation they do in that period that affects the low- and the high end as that's where I recall seeing the variance.

Now, all that said, I'd have a hard time believing that ML shipped over a prototype that had hardly been used. This is most likely a Beta unit with many hrs on the clock. More likely it was room, setup and or other equipment issues that led to the reported variance between Friday and Saturday.

Also, they were likely over-energizing the room at high volumes and causing it to ring, which makes any speaker sound bad.

I think Kapton takes considerably longer to beak in. I've also witnessed ML panels take from virtually no time to considerably more than a month. Go figure cos I can't, lest some replacement panels had actually been used, or were just set to a lower tension to start with.

Had a long chat with Ken Ishiwata at a show who basically said the problem with planars is getting and maintaining the right tension.

I was there, the room wasn't that bad, there was some treatment, it wasn't loud enough to cause real issues. In my opinion and considerable experience.

Also Peter Soderburg was there, was setting volumes, is experienced, and isn't going to compromise the demo by doing what you have suggested happened.

 

[beanbag]

This is false. Source: I have actually witnessed the process at the factory. There is tension applied in both the vertical and horizontal directions.

Sure they apply initial horizontal tension to take out the wrinkles and get the film to lay evenly over the clear spars. But that horizontal tension goes away quickly after the panel is assembled.

It is theoretically impossible for a curved piece of material to have tension (in the direction of the curve), because unless there is an opposing force, that tension will straighten it out right away. When was the last time you saw a curved piece of string under tension?

You can easily check for yourself by taking a sheet of paper and bending it into a curve. This represents a 2x2" chunk of mylar film that is in the middle between two of the spars, i.e. not supported. Tug along the "straight" direction, and the shape doesn't change. Tug in the curved direction and it will straighten out right away.

IF there is any residual horizontal tension, it will cause the film to bow / sag between the spars, as the horizontal and vertical tensions "fight" each other.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Sure they apply initial horizontal tension to take out the wrinkles and get the film to lay evenly over the clear spars. But that horizontal tension goes away quickly after the panel is assembled.

What specific proof do you have to validate your assertion?

A piece of paper is obviously not the same as a piece of mylar within the context of this issue. I've never been able to "stretch" a piece of paper but I can stretch materials that are mylar based.

Have you somehow measured the horizontal tension of the mylar on a ML speaker when it was new and then measured it at a later date to prove your point?

What a stupid, irrelevant analogy.

 

[InterMechanico]

Sure they apply initial horizontal tension to take out the wrinkles and get the film to lay evenly over the clear spars. But that horizontal tension goes away quickly after the panel is assembled.

It is theoretically impossible for a curved piece of material to have tension (in the direction of the curve), because unless there is an opposing force, that tension will straighten it out right away. When was the last time you saw a curved piece of string under tension?

You can easily check for yourself by taking a sheet of paper and bending it into a curve. This represents a 2x2" chunk of mylar film that is in the middle between two of the spars, i.e. not supported. Tug along the "straight" direction, and the shape doesn't change. Tug in the curved direction and it will straighten out right away.

IF there is any residual horizontal tension, it will cause the film to bow / sag between the spars, as the horizontal and vertical tensions "fight" each other.

Yes, I had forgotten about this.

The Panel can be tensioned horizontally as well as vertically. The spars and stators maintain the curved shape, and the vertical tension counteracts the tendency of the mylar to curve between the spars. It's not complicated, and its not theoretical.

I "like" how you present your "theories" as "facts".

Could you theorize on whether UHMW would make a good enclosure material for a subwoofer? (1 1/2" Thick)

 

[InterMechanico]

Sure they apply initial horizontal tension to take out the wrinkles and get the film to lay evenly over the clear spars. But that horizontal tension goes away quickly after the panel is assembled.

It is theoretically impossible for a curved piece of material to have tension (in the direction of the curve), because unless there is an opposing force, that tension will straighten it out right away. When was the last time you saw a curved piece of string under tension?

You can easily check for yourself by taking a sheet of paper and bending it into a curve. This represents a 2x2" chunk of mylar film that is in the middle between two of the spars, i.e. not supported. Tug along the "straight" direction, and the shape doesn't change. Tug in the curved direction and it will straighten out right away.

IF there is any residual horizontal tension, it will cause the film to bow / sag between the spars, as the horizontal and vertical tensions "fight" each other.

I tried the paper curving trick, but I couldn't get it to stick to the speaker???

 

[JonFo]

One more pic found in the wild:

 

[beanbag]

It is theoretically impossible for a curved piece of material to have tension (in the direction of the curve), because unless there is an opposing force, that tension will straighten it out right away. When was the last time you saw a curved piece of string under tension?

IF there is any residual horizontal tension, it will cause the film to bow / sag between the spars, as the horizontal and vertical tensions "fight" each other.

What specific proof do you have to validate your assertion?

A piece of paper is obviously not the same as a piece of mylar within the context of this issue. I've never been able to "stretch" a piece of paper but I can stretch materials that are mylar based.

Have you somehow measured the horizontal tension of the mylar on a ML speaker when it was new and then measured it at a later date to prove your point?

What a stupid, irrelevant analogy.

Gordon, you need to take more time to let these concepts settle in before mouthing off. It seems counter-intuitive to your perceptions, but what I said is a fairly basic concept.

Or if you still don't get it after a while, maybe ask somebody, like a mechanical engineer or anybody else that remembers the concepts from a first year physics course, who can construct a free body diagram for an isolated, curved chunk of mylar.

I can do this diagram showing all the forces, if you are able to understand it and accept it as proof.

PS: be careful about asking for measurements as proof if you don't understand the concept behind it, because I can always fake or intentionally misrepresent a measurement. A valuable life lesson indeed.

 

[Rich]

Sure they apply initial horizontal tension to take out the wrinkles and get the film to lay evenly over the clear spars. But that horizontal tension goes away quickly after the panel is assembled.

Please explain why the horizontal tension would "go away quickly" and the vertical tension would not. Makes no sense. Especially since it is all held together by strong sticky tape and then vacuum bonded. I do understand your point about tensioning a curved surface, but it also seems clear that the speaker wouldn't work properly without some horizontal tension. I'm thinking the gentle radius of the curve, combined with the vertical tension and clear spar supports, negates any effects from tensioning the Mylar in the direction of the curve.

I also have to agree with intermechanico above. You have a bad track record of presenting your theories and opinions as "fact."

 

[Gordon Gray]

PS: be careful about asking for measurements as proof if you don't understand the concept behind it, because I can always fake or intentionally misrepresent a measurement. A valuable life lesson indeed.

Seems as if others also don't understand your concepts, theories, or "facts".

I'll leave it there.

 

[RUR]

*Sigh*