Necessity of Front Effects speakers in Home Theater?

[c_morse]

Hi all,

Currently putting together my HT system, have been for some time. I've settled on the Yamaha RX-Z11 Receiver to handle my HT duties, while I'll be using a Rogue Audio 99 Magnum with HT bypass for 2 channel duties.

I know that Yamaha includes outputs for front effects speakers, that will be placed above and to the outside of the main speakers. My question is, are these really needed for a good HT setup? What purpose to they really serve?

It'd seem a set of Summits and a Stage would be about all of the front presence one could need, but I'm trying to double check before I set these last few details in stone.

Thanks a bunch!

-Charlie

 

[SteveInNC]

Seems strange to me. For 7.1 systems, you typically have the two main front speakers, two side effects speakers roughly at the plane of the listening position, two rear effects speakers behind the listening position, and a sub (somewhere). The effects speakers may or may not be elevated relative to the listener.

I don't know what front effects speakers would be for.

 

[c_morse]

From my research, I believe that Yamaha uses them to "widen" the soundstage.

There's also a newer format call "Height" speakers that use these front effects speakers place high on the wall to make the soundfield seem higher, however from my reading it appears that only Onkyo and Denon are using the format right now.

 

[c_morse]

I think I may have answered my own question here:

Yamaha's technology seems to be used mostly in their DSP modes while watching movies.

On my older Yamaha receiver, I've always used the DTS and Dolby soundfields for watching movies, and didn't really ever use their DSP modes.

Not saying that can't change, but I don't foresee it.

 

[omntch]

I connected the 'presence' speakers on my Yamaha when I was using box speakers. In addition to adding to the sound effects, they also allow you to 'lift' the center channel a bit to be more centered on the screen. Since having electrostatic speakers, I have disconnected them.

 

[JMAUSGP]

You may be referring to the new 9.2 and 11.2 surround sound formats that you can find on Onkyo, Integra, Denon and a few others. I actually have 9.2 on my Integra 80.1 Preamp Processor that includes the latest Audyssey room correction system. I don't have the speakers set up to for 9.2 yet, just 7.2. May try it, may not, depends on how much idle time I have on my hands, which is none at this point.

The two extra height or field speakers can be added to your 7.2 system for example to make it into a 9.2 system. I personally think it is a personal preference kind of thing and to make it work you really need Audyssey room correction. It definitely adds more sound which adds to your room problem but some might not see it that way.

So in a nutshell if you get a 9.2 or 11.2 system and try to run it without Audyssey, your results can be all over the place just like your sound.

It probably adds to the number of acoustic panels you need too.

Jonfo, what do you think?

 

[SteveInNC]

I'm curious, without any 9+.2 source material available (that I'm aware of), what does this get you, unless your system is synthesizing the other channels. If it's just replicating one or more of the other channels, I don't think it constitutes a true "9." audio field.

I've never been fond of synthetic effects. "Stadium" sound fields, etc. are kind of fun from a demo point of view, but I find that I never seem to use them in actual listening/watching.

I have a Denon so I'm familiar with and use Audyssey.

 

[c_morse]

In Yamaha's case, I'm fairly certain that even though they claim 11.2 on the RX-Z11, it's really still just 7.2 with four effects channels. Those extra channels certainly have to be synthesized, and if my reading is correct they only really come into effect when using Yamaha's DSP modes. I like Dolby Digital the best to this day, DTS always seemed a bit bass heavy for my tastes. I never really got into the DSP's though. I guess it's nice to have them, but they're just extra frills that I don't need.

 

[c_morse]

Jonfo,

Hoping to get your input on this, as you and JMAUSGP seem to be the reigning heavy hitters with multi-channel and home theater.

 

[robertawillisjr]

Yamaha has been using that speaker configuration since their first DSP engine in the 90's (or late 80's). Of course the technology has improved since then but I didn't think they did anything for my HT set up (read pre Dolby HT days)

 

[JMAUSGP]

I can't speak for Jonfo, but the way I read the specs on the Yamaha 11.2 or even 9.2, the effects speakers are just that. They are running off a signal from the Yamaha DSP chip and they probably do give a bigger more airy sound stage if you are using regular box speakers.

But when it comes to Logans, well that is the point isn't it. The sound comes from the front, the rear and then the sides. I would start with my ML setup and then if you get bored down the road, or pick up a deal on a spare set of Frescos or Motifs well then experiment.

You may like the effect, you may not, but at least you could turn around and sell the effect speakers for exactly what you paid, so there is no harm done.

I currently have 3 multichannel systems so I am experimenting all the time, how do you think I ended up with CLXs

Experimenting is fun, not profitable but fun, or as some call it Joeitis.:devil:

 

[Gordon]

Wow, haven't heard the term "Joeitis" in a long time! Is there a Doctor in the house?!

Gordon

 

[JonFo]

Jonfo,

Hoping to get your input on this, as you and JMAUSGP seem to be the reigning heavy hitters with multi-channel and home theater.

Sorry to be late to the party. Here's my take:

the Yamaha system was developed specifically for point-source monopole speakers.

think if you will of the typical Home theater setup with dynamic speakers, usually a two or three way bookshelf or small floor-standing speaker.

The imaging (in the vertical plane) of these is pretty limited, you typically hear the sound as coming from the level at which the tweeter sits.

To create a large, taller soundstage, Yamaha decided it would be cool to add two, smaller, high-placed speakers fed by a slightly delayed and processed sound to 'pull up' the virtual height of the soundstage in the front.

For some setups based on dynamic drivers, this works as a nice movie effect. Not always good on music (depends on recording).

Now, for large, tall, dipole line-sources like ESL MartinLogans, it's utterly unnecessary, and quite possibly detrimental to sound quality.

This Yamaha and the somewhat comparable Audyssey DSX process are totally designed around very, very different types of speakers and will not work well with big line sources.

Bottom line: not recommended.

 

[gordonmenninger]

I totally agree with Jonfo. In addition, I would probably try to pair my ML speakers with something of a little better quality than Yamaha... just sayin...

How many channels do we really need? I think 5.1 or max 7.1 is fine, but man, anything above that is just getting ridiculous. Of course the speaker Manufacturers love it - they probably hope we all end up with 18.4 channels for ht and music so they can sell a ton more speakers!

 

[Longez]

If I am hijacking the thread here just let me know and I can move the post somewhere else.

I have a situation similar to Batman with an Onkyo HT-RC180. Due to lightning I will be replacing all of my old equipment. I am on a tight budget so I am settling in on the Motion line. However, since my old stuff was all “theatre-in-a-box”, anything is a step up!

Onkyo shows a set-up for up to 11 speakers with subwoofer, center, Front L & R speakers, Front L & R Wide speakers, Front L & R High speakers, Surround L & R speakers, and Surround Back L & R speakers.
I am thinking of the following:

• Center – Motion 8 or Motion 6,
• Front L&R – Motion 12 or Motion 10
• Front L&R Wide – Motion 4
• Front L&R High – Motion 2
• Surround L & R – Motion 4 or Motion 2
• Rear Surround – Current in-ceiling (similar to Helios)
• Subwoofer – I have seen some Abyss in the classifieds or maybe a Dynamo 700.

From the previous posts I gather that this number of speakers may be overkill. For argument's sake, if I were to go ahead with it, does the combination look like a good first pass? I listened to the speakers (one pair at a time) in a local BB/Magnolia and they seem like they would fill my 14’X20’ HT room.

This would be for watching movies mostly, neither my wife nor I do much critical music listening. Having been okay with TIB we are probably not that critical with movie experience either. :think:

One last thing, when reading the manual it seem that if using Front High, Surround, and Back speakers, they will not produce any sound. (See attached, outlined in red). Is that how you read this? ??
Carl

 

[gordonmenninger]

sorry, but are you kidding me - 11 speakers with an Onkyo receiver??? Insane... I would focus on getting a better sub if I was you than messing with 5 additional gimmick speakers... Just sayin...
You may want to look at the Abyss or Dynamo will not be powerful enough and you will be disappointed after a couple of listening sessions to reference material with powerful, low bass notes! Thos subs just won't cut it. Try at least a Depth i or better yet a JL F113 and be blown away (literally!)

If I am hijacking the thread here just let me know and I can move the post somewhere else.

I have a situation similar to Batman with an Onkyo HT-RC180. Due to lightning I will be replacing all of my old equipment. I am on a tight budget so I am settling in on the Motion line. However, since my old stuff was all “theatre-in-a-box”, anything is a step up!

Onkyo shows a set-up for up to 11 speakers with subwoofer, center, Front L & R speakers, Front L & R Wide speakers, Front L & R High speakers, Surround L & R speakers, and Surround Back L & R speakers.
I am thinking of the following:

• Center – Motion 8 or Motion 6,
• Front L&R – Motion 12 or Motion 10
• Front L&R Wide – Motion 4
• Front L&R High – Motion 2
• Surround L & R – Motion 4 or Motion 2
• Rear Surround – Current in-ceiling (similar to Helios)
• Subwoofer – I have seen some Abyss in the classifieds or maybe a Dynamo 700.

From the previous posts I gather that this number of speakers may be overkill. For argument's sake, if I were to go ahead with it, does the combination look like a good first pass? I listened to the speakers (one pair at a time) in a local BB/Magnolia and they seem like they would fill my 14’X20’ HT room.

This would be for watching movies mostly, neither my wife nor I do much critical music listening. Having been okay with TIB we are probably not that critical with movie experience either. :think:

One last thing, when reading the manual it seem that if using Front High, Surround, and Back speakers, they will not produce any sound. (See attached, outlined in red). Is that how you read this? ??
Carl

 

[TomD]

Longez - I can't help seeing in that manual the words "hype" throughout. Even if you are not a critical listener, don't you think that quality over quantity should prevail?

Spending your hard earned bucks on a few well placed higher end speakers will likely enhance the movie (or music) experience better than several lower end speakers. Especially when the receiver will not utilize them all at the same time.

Then there is the issue of recording. How will a typical 5.1 DVD sound in a system where the sound is scattered amongst speakers the sound engineers never bargained for? You are at the mercy of the receivers construction and software, which may not enhance the original intended 5.1 experience.