I ordered a set of "demo" GC's thinking I would just try them on the stat part of my Summits and try to hear a difference. I heard more corporeal images and the quieter music seemed, well quieter. No big change in tonal balance, but the woofers seemed suddenly more discontinuous than before. Ordered a second set for the woofers and the discontinuity disappeared. Go figure! At any rate I'll keep mine.
ML's With Audio Prism Ground Control
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Tony,
There is a way to make your woofers respond to transients with the speed of the flat panels. It's inexpensive and you can learn how to accomplish it yourself. Cost to get into the scheme is about $30 for a kit of materials, from someone other than me.
Bud
There is a way to make your woofers respond to transients with the speed of the flat panels. It's inexpensive and you can learn how to accomplish it yourself. Cost to get into the scheme is about $30 for a kit of materials, from someone other than me.
Bud
Thanks Bud. I am curious but truth be told I can make these things sound however I want just by fiddling with the woofer controls on the back. I'm too clumsy and paranoid to mod my babies!
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Bud,
Appears you have no personal knowledge of the Summits and the effect the x-over settings on the back of the bass module impact the sound.
GG
That is quite correct Gordon, I do not.
What I pointed to will not affect those controls, at all. All drivers are theoretically minimum phase devices. To a large degree, about 1/3 to 1/2 of a curvilinear cone in a radial line, beginning at the voice coil and extending to the surround, this is true. After that point the emissions from the cone surface are no longer entirely minimum phase, though they should be. This is due to resonance nodes arising from non-linear activities caused by transverse waves and the gross differences between cone and air.
If you take a light, hardwood wand, like what you find in the handle of a good artists paint brush and tap in a radial line from voice coil to surround a few times, you will eventually begin to hear some differences in the tone that the light tapping excites and eventually in what will seem like a direction change in the decay of that taping.
Not a particularly sophisticated test, but where the tone changes, or the perceived decay direction changes, the emission point for a non minimum phase resonance point has been found. What I was offering to Tony and anyone else interested, was the dispersal of those resonant nodes, to a degree that will allow the loss of coherence caused by them to be audibly eliminated.
This turns out to be more information available, with less "noise" and overhang. That means a better integration with the main panel. Not touting perfection here, just better, just as with the Ground Control devices.
Bud
What I pointed to will not affect those controls, at all. All drivers are theoretically minimum phase devices. To a large degree, about 1/3 to 1/2 of a curvilinear cone in a radial line, beginning at the voice coil and extending to the surround, this is true. After that point the emissions from the cone surface are no longer entirely minimum phase, though they should be. This is due to resonance nodes arising from non-linear activities caused by transverse waves and the gross differences between cone and air.
If you take a light, hardwood wand, like what you find in the handle of a good artists paint brush and tap in a radial line from voice coil to surround a few times, you will eventually begin to hear some differences in the tone that the light tapping excites and eventually in what will seem like a direction change in the decay of that taping.
Not a particularly sophisticated test, but where the tone changes, or the perceived decay direction changes, the emission point for a non minimum phase resonance point has been found. What I was offering to Tony and anyone else interested, was the dispersal of those resonant nodes, to a degree that will allow the loss of coherence caused by them to be audibly eliminated.
This turns out to be more information available, with less "noise" and overhang. That means a better integration with the main panel. Not touting perfection here, just better, just as with the Ground Control devices.
Bud
sleepysurf
Well-known member
FYI, Ric Schultz is now sellling a "knockoff" of these, called Ground Enhancers for $30/pr... http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_Ground_Enhancers.html
I just ordered a couple sets... figured it was worth a try at that price!
I just ordered a couple sets... figured it was worth a try at that price!
You will get some portion of what GC's provide from these knock off's. I have not had a pair to dissect, so I do not know how much of what we do internal to the cotton sleeve he has copied. From an external pic I do know he has missed at least half of the total benefit. And, he does admit that he hasn't the faintest idea what he is doing....
However you should get somewhat better performance than what a two foot long piece of split zip cord, made into a loop, with 2 inches of stripped wire ends twisted together will provide. No control over the subtle aspects, that we do take into account, but you will find a noticeable difference in reproduced sound qualtiy. And, if the loop of zip makes a difference than you can count on GC 's making quite a bit more difference, with a very balanced presentation of all of the information retained due to their use.
Bud
However you should get somewhat better performance than what a two foot long piece of split zip cord, made into a loop, with 2 inches of stripped wire ends twisted together will provide. No control over the subtle aspects, that we do take into account, but you will find a noticeable difference in reproduced sound qualtiy. And, if the loop of zip makes a difference than you can count on GC 's making quite a bit more difference, with a very balanced presentation of all of the information retained due to their use.
Bud
2beornot2bop
Well-known member
Got the first batch and liked them so much I am going to do the second theater.
If I like that then I will do a third batch. All I can say is it is definitely worth the risk........30 days risk free, try a set and see if you can tell the difference...I coud.
Oh my, this has got to be the most entertaining thread I've read at the MLC yet! This combination of drama, science, emotion, humor, insults, in one forum topic is priceless. JMAUSGP, you're a riot!!!!! What are you on, pair 55 by now? It's reassuring to observe I'm not the only potential candidate for a 12 step program. :bowdown:
Hello I'm 2b, and I'm an audio addict!
The reason I started the thread on ground control in the fisrt place was to share the fact with the ML forum that you could greatly improve your sound for a measly $149US.
Sems like a no brainer due to the fact you members in the US get a 30 day money back guarantee from several outlets.
What ever happened to Tone Pub who was going to order a set and report back several pages back in the thread after dissing ground control every which way. Never heard back from that foray.
Like I have always said, if you haven't tried it, you have no opinion.
Cheers, Greg
Sems like a no brainer due to the fact you members in the US get a 30 day money back guarantee from several outlets.
What ever happened to Tone Pub who was going to order a set and report back several pages back in the thread after dissing ground control every which way. Never heard back from that foray.
Like I have always said, if you haven't tried it, you have no opinion.
Cheers, Greg
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Bernard
Well-known member
I guess you missed the thread; Tonepub is no longer on this forum. I would not be surprised, though, if he does purchase them and report his findings in his magazine.
robertawillisjr
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Here http://www.tonepublications.com/magazine/ it is Bud
Bernard
Well-known member
I think your second question would be best answered by one of the mods.
MiTT
Super User
None of us had anything to do with it. He made the decision to leave all on his own and if he chose to return I don't think anyone would give it a second thought.
Brian Walsh
Well-known member
I'm late to this party but thought I'd throw in my tuppence worth.
I tried the Reference GCs on the speakers' negative terminals. They went in and out of the system several times, using several CD tracks. Each time the effect was evident.
The initial impression was gee, something surely changed. After a couple of in and out cycles I suspected they were adding noise and distortion, not removing it. Further listening confirmed it; the effects were somewhat "hifi" in nature. Exaggerated width and more strident, for example...live music doesn't sound like that, thought I.
Amplifiers were Atma-Sphere MA-1 Mk 3.1 OTL monoblocks; speakers were Sound Lab U-1PXs; speaker cables were Teo Audio Reference. The latter employ proprietary liquid metal conductor material and have been on loan from the manufacturer. As proof of concept, the manufacturer has used this model of speaker cables to pass HD video (74 MHz!) and took photos of the TV screen, which were quite clear. The point of that was that they exhibit no measurable phase shift anywhere in the audio band and far beyond. Combined with the full range ESLs' inherent coherence, time smear and phase anomalies tend to stand out.
Obviously your mileage may vary. I invite anyone interested to come hear the differences, although you'll have to bring your own GCs because I sent mine back.
I tried the Reference GCs on the speakers' negative terminals. They went in and out of the system several times, using several CD tracks. Each time the effect was evident.
The initial impression was gee, something surely changed. After a couple of in and out cycles I suspected they were adding noise and distortion, not removing it. Further listening confirmed it; the effects were somewhat "hifi" in nature. Exaggerated width and more strident, for example...live music doesn't sound like that, thought I.
Amplifiers were Atma-Sphere MA-1 Mk 3.1 OTL monoblocks; speakers were Sound Lab U-1PXs; speaker cables were Teo Audio Reference. The latter employ proprietary liquid metal conductor material and have been on loan from the manufacturer. As proof of concept, the manufacturer has used this model of speaker cables to pass HD video (74 MHz!) and took photos of the TV screen, which were quite clear. The point of that was that they exhibit no measurable phase shift anywhere in the audio band and far beyond. Combined with the full range ESLs' inherent coherence, time smear and phase anomalies tend to stand out.
Obviously your mileage may vary. I invite anyone interested to come hear the differences, although you'll have to bring your own GCs because I sent mine back.
I got the second theater up and running on "Ground Control to Major Tom..." I mean, I got them hooked up to the logans this last weekend and sorry to report I like them.
So I am going to have to do the main theater.....sheesh will it never end.
So I am going to have to do the main theater.....sheesh will it never end.
Brian, I am sorry that your experiment did not meet your hoped for goals. It sounds as though your system actually needed the Standard Ground Controls, rather than the Reference model. My own system is also pretty touchy about the reference devices and I either team them up with a standard or don't use them in a spot where they don't help with clarity. So far, those spots have been helped by applying a Standard Ground Control.
Now you know why we have a money back guarantee! Thank you for your post.
Bud
Now you know why we have a money back guarantee! Thank you for your post.
Bud
Brian Walsh
Well-known member
Bud, although I did not have any expectations or hopes, I was prepared to accept the GCs if they fulfilled the claims. In the end I concluded the system needs nothing of the sort.
