ML Summit and McIntosh synergy

[gmartan]

After my MF Tri-Vista amp went south I brought home a McIntosh MC2102 tube power amp and the C2200 pre-amp. There is no air, no high frquencies, no dynamics. My Unico Integrated from my den blows the doors off this combo in every way. Does anyone have any experience with this combo? My alternative will be a Classe CA-2200 which I have read good things about. The CP-500 pre-amp, not so much. Has anyone heard both the CP-700 and the CP-500? Comments?

 

[tonepub]

Though we have a certain member out here who will highly disagree with you and I on this, (I own a MC275 that I love, just not with my Summits) the answer is pretty easy. If you take a quick peek at the specs on the Summits or Vantage, they go down to under 1 ohm impedance at 20k....

Most tube amps (matter of fact every one i've tried) just plain run out of gas at 1ohm or less, which leaves the sound a bit "rolled off" in the highs.

I have a pair of Penaudio Serenades that have a crossover that has a few funny impedance dips in the lower region and its the same thing. Very few tube amps sound good with these speakers.

I have had half way decent luck with the Manley 250's though.

Back when I had my CLS's, and Aerius-i's, they did ok with tube amps, but the Summit and Vantage have definitely had more giddyup with SS.

The Current Classe amps are not bad at all and not too spendy. I've used their entry level CA-2100 (100wpc) with the Summits and Vantage with good results.

Good luck on the hunt!

 

[aliveatfive]

Try to beg, borrow or steal a new ARC REF 110 to try out with your Summits. I find the combination to be without compromise.

 

[kach22i]

Does anyone have any experience with this combo?

I heard that combo at a stero store a few years ago, completely lifeless.

The salesman said it was the combo DVD/CD player's fault, I was not so sure.

Mind you this was with cone driver speaker which had it's own powered bass unit built in. I really expected a lot more.

I'd love to hear a MC275 in my system, just not with a Mac pre-amp though.

 

[tonepub]

I've actually heard it and it is excellent. The ARC is just a click or two on the cool side for my taste, but it is a fantastic product. All of the ARC Ref stuff is great gear...

No more big tube power amps for me in my main reference system. I listen 10-12 hours a day and used to go through 6550's by the pallette load. I'm more than happy with my SS Premier 350 to want for anything else.

 

[jjay]

Jeff,
When you listened to the McIntosh new SS 402 or 252 amplifiers, did you find any problems with driving your Summits? I ask because I am not having any problems with my combination of Vantages/ McIntosh 252 amp. I am just curious how the Summits performed with McIntosh new SS amplifiers. I still have Summits on my mind.
Jim

 

[tonepub]

You will have no trouble at all with SS Mac gear and Summits.
Your current setup will be just great.

I'm waiting for the new MC7000 integrated. 200wpc ss, and mm/mc
phono preamp. Probably won't see that baby till after CES....

There's a possibility that we might get the MC1201's in after CES too.
I'm pretty excited about that!

We'll keep you posted....

 

[taylode]

You will have no trouble at all with SS Mac gear and Summits.
Your current setup will be just great.

I'm waiting for the new MC7000 integrated. 200wpc ss, and mm/mc
phono preamp. Probably won't see that baby till after CES....

There's a possibility that we might get the MC1201's in after CES too.
I'm pretty excited about that!

We'll keep you posted....

I hope you have a strong back... I hope we can get an early review if you got the 1201s in. :music:

 

[tonepub]

I've got helpers!!

 

[SundayNiagara]

"After my MF Tri-Vista amp went south I brought home a McIntosh MC2102 tube power amp and the C2200 pre-amp. There is no air, no high frquencies, no dynamics."

It's time for speakers that are easier to drive.

 

[David Matz]

Jeff,
When you listened to the McIntosh new SS 402 or 252 amplifiers, did you find any problems with driving your Summits? I ask because I am not having any problems with my combination of Vantages/ McIntosh 252 amp. I am just curious how the Summits performed with McIntosh new SS amplifiers. I still have Summits on my mind.
Jim

I have heard the MC402 driving the Vantages. "Tube" sound from SS gear, while maintaining full control over the panel. It was sublime!

 

[twich54]

A little divergence if I may

You know guys an amp I'd like to hear up against our Logans is the Rogue Zeus or their M-150 monoblocks.

I was very impressed with their little integrated amp that i listened to while @ Acoustic Sounds this past June.

 

[gmartan]

So the dealer rep came over bringing goodies...

First we tried the Classe CA-2200. It immediatly invoked it's protection circuit so that was a non-starter. Next we hooked up the MC402. Great sound. Balance, rhythm and pacing. A tad less air than the Tri-Vista had but the bass is better balanced. I could listen for hours. Problem solved. He also brought over his MAC SACD player. Now I need one of those too.

I did notice that one of the systems featured under Robin's "Martin Logan Super Systems" does have an MC2102 connected to Summits but not using a Mac pre-amp. I'm curious how that sounds given my experience.

 

[jjay]

Next we hooked up the MC402. Great sound. Balance, rhythm and pacing. A tad less air than the Tri-Vista had but the bass is better balanced. I could listen for hours. Problem solved. He also brought over his MAC SACD player. Now I need one of those too.

I listened to both the McIntosh MC402 & the MC252 SS amplifiers and did not notice much difference in the basic sound signature. The sale rep said that these SS amplifiers sound similar but the MC402 is more effortless because of the higher power. I don't know if this is typical sales talk but I didn't notice enough difference between these amps to purchase the MC402. I am thinking of the MC402 if I purchase the Summits. Also the MCD201 SACD player was the most analog sounding of all of the cd players I tried. Many people have complained about transport noise of the MCD201 but my unit is quiet.
Jim

 

[tonyc]

You know guys an amp I'd like to hear up against our Logans is the Rogue Zeus or their M-150 monoblocks.

I was very impressed with their little integrated amp that i listened to while @ Acoustic Sounds this past June.

I have actually heard the Zeus but not on Martin Logans. I heard it drive a pair of 30K JM Labs speakers and thought it sounded great. I would also like to hear it on my Summits!

 

[hcheu]

MC AMP characteristic

From my experience, Mcintosh amps tend to sound too "smooth" or "gentle" if the impedence does not match that of the speakers. Make sure that you are using the 4 ohms taps. I also found that the MCs like cables with a lower capacitance when driving electrostatics. Change speaker placement will help too. The MC amps are more gentle in general. I like the MC sound for acoustic music, but it does take time to learn to love it because the more "natural," "continuious" sound does not call attention to itself.

 

[nsgarch]

Counter-intuition

For another discussion of tube vs. SS amps with stats, as well as McIntosh SS amps w/ stats (not the same as directly coupled SS amps w/ stats) click this link: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showpost.php?p=58808&postcount=22

 

[gmartan]

Bought the 402

Interesting discussion. My dealer suggested the McIntosh tube amp as the best sound for the Summits but it had no life at all. My 80 watt hybrid Unico from the den blew the doors off it. The SS amp was far, far better and I can live with it even though it's a little reserved due to it's great top to bottom balance. I was hoping that the Classe Delta 400 watt amp would have worked since it operates mostly in class A but it shut down as soon as the speakers were connected. Next week I'll be comparing the C2300 preamp to the C2200 to see what that does for the synergy.

 

[hcheu]

Classe with autoformer

You may be able to locate a test pair of Paul Speltz's autoformers in Vancouver. I used them with Bryston and Classe before, though mostly for a pair of full range Acoustats (an even harder load). Right now I am using MC 252 and I also used Sonic Frontier SFS80 and tested the MC 275 for the ML. The Classe-autoformer combination was among the best sound stage depth of all the amps I ever used. With the autoformers, the Classe never showed stress at all; it sounded how Classe should sound, darker and more relaxed. But I settled with the SS McIntosh because of its smoothness.

The tube sound was my favourite of all; unfortunately, other than listening to symphonies, I am using the system for film editing, which is part of my job. The number of hours that I spent on the tubes for work made them cost ineffective, so I ended up using the MC252, however close enough to the tube sound.

When I tested the tube amps, I found that the speakers are better to be placed farer apart and toe in more (this does not mean that it will work for you the same way because it is all room dependent). The extra presence due to the characteristics of the tubes allow the widest possible sound stage and sweetness. Switching back to the SS, the placement for the tube amps will have to be changed; otherwise the speakers will glare. Mcintosh's SS amps sound more like tube amps, so my speaker placement follows what I did for tubes.:music:

 

[nsgarch]

Underwhelmed? Some thoughts . . . .

Interesting discussion. My dealer suggested the McIntosh tube amp as the best sound for the Summits but it had no life at all.

I'm not at all surprised that your (40W/ch Class A?) Unico integrated is driving a pair of Summits nicely. It's common knowledge that (low impedance) stats sound terrific with less tube power than SS power. However, if the McIntosh combo you auditioned was disappointing, something is terribly wrong, maybe with the equipment itself, maybe somewhere else. I can't say.

What I can say, is besides my own exciting results with the MC275, I've been in touch with a number of Summit/Vantage owners who drive their speakers with either one or two MC275's or in one case, an MC2102 (and he's getting a second one!) So far, I think I'm the only one driving CLS's, but Rich (mosttoysrk) will be joining me as soon as his MC275 arrives

Of the six of us currently using MC275/2102's, not one individual (even those still using the dull OEM tubes!) mentioned a lack of air, high frequencies, or dynamics; quite the contrary. So, to those of you not completely thrilled hearing an MC275 driving an electrostatic panel, I can only say, "It isn't the amp!" A number of other things could be causing the poor performance you report, from stranded speaker cables to a mono/stereo switch in the wrong position to upstream parts of the system.

Too often, audiophiles judge a component from a single 'listen'. Or make another big mistake assuming if a new component sounds terrible when dropped into an otherwise excellent-sounding 'reference' system, it must be the new component -- completely ignoring (or ignorant of) the fact that the host system is partly or completely incompatible with the audition piece.

I should also mention that if one already has the 'right' combination of quality equipment, and the system still doesn't sound like it did at the dealer, or like the reviewer said, etc, you can be almost certain the problem is the room -- and the only component 'change' that can (help) fix that is an active room equalizer and/or passive room treatments. A great room can't fix a lousy system, but a lousy room can destroy a great system.