ML Summit and McIntosh synergy

[gmartan]

Tomorrow the McIntosh SACD is being delivered....BUT

Yesterday I dragged my UNICO integrated downstairs to power my Summits. For the last week I have been listening to the C-2200 pre-amp with the MC-402 power amp. Source is a Cayin SACD player which has a spectacular SACD sound if not Redbook. With the vintage Mullard 12AU7 tubes I recently installed in the UNICO it totally blows away the McIntosh combination. The MAC is dull and lifeless in comparison. It gets much worse when using balanced cables between the pre-amp and power amp. Needless to say, I'm a little freaked since I'm pretty much committed to the McIntosh combo.

I ran the MC-2200 output into the UNICO amp input and it sounds very transparant in that I can't hear a difference switching from the direct SACD output to the one routed through the C-2200. That pretty much leaves the amplifier or cables. I hope it's cables. Does anyone have this combination and can you tell me what cables seem to work best for you?

 

[edwinr]

You know guys an amp I'd like to hear up against our Logans is the Rogue Zeus or their M-150 monoblocks.

I was very impressed with their little integrated amp that i listened to while @ Acoustic Sounds this past June.

Very true. Specs only tell part of the story. I have run my Summits with little s/s amps with surprising results.

 

[longhorn]

I posted a link to a Youtube video of CNBC doing a story on Martin Logan. In it you can see a McIntosh component being used in a demo at the ML HQ.

 

[nsgarch]

That pretty much leaves the amplifier or cables.

BTW, what cables are you presently using?

 

[gmartan]

Problem solved

It turns out that the McIntosh C-2200 has very poor synergy with the MC402 Power Amplifier. Plugging in the new C-2300 fixed it. It sounds great. In the process we also discovered that single ended cables sound much better. Balanced cables between the pre-amp and amplifier dulls things down considerably. Balanced cables between the McIntosh SACD player and pre-amp makes the sound more grainy.
Update: After some extensive listening I felt that the sound was still not where a system of this calibre should be. I moved the tap from 4 ohms to 2 ohms hoping for improved synergy. It got a little worse which prompted my to try the 8 ohm taps. Suddenly the frequency extension that I was missing since the demise of the previous system was back. That's what gives music life and makes it a joy to listen to. The pianos sounded natural again and the acoustics guitars sounded acoustic again. Now I'm happy.
PS. I just heard from another ML owner (not Summits) that tried the 8 ohm tap on his McIntosh tube amp with similar results.

 

[Rich]

In the process we also discovered that single ended cables sound much better. Balanced cables between the pre-amp and amplifier dulls things down considerably. Balanced cables between the McIntosh SACD player and pre-amp makes the sound more grainy.

This absolutely should not be the case. If it really is, I would consider it a fatal flaw in the equipment and ask for my money back! Just my 2 cents.

 

[nsgarch]

I have to agree

with Rich, though I'd still like to know what brand/model cables you are using.

This absolutely should not be the case. If it really is, I would consider it a fatal flaw in the equipment and ask for my money back! Just my 2 cents.

 

[Audioseduction]

with Rich, though I'd still like to know what brand/model cables you are using.

I think it’s a secrete. LOL

 

[gmartan]

Cables

The initial balanced cables I used were single ended Harmonic Tech Truth Link followed by cables I built with a high end Belden cable and WBTs. Both of these sounded better than the balanced cables I built using the same $6.00 Neutricks that most use followed by a nice balanced set of Harmonic Tech that the dealer brought out when we installed the c2300. We tested all the combinations. Initially I thought the amplifier was the problem since the tube amp that first came out sounded so flat and putting the c2200 in series with the UNICO integrated did not seem to change the quality of the sound much. Again, in the end the C2300 was the total solution.

 

[john C]

InnerSound ESL 300MKII

This is a good choice of amp for the electrostatic speakers, it was designed for their complex loads. I am in search of a serious dealer for this product . Does anyone have a contact ?

Thanks,

 

[Rich]

This is a good choice of amp for the electrostatic speakers, it was designed for their complex loads. I am in search of a serious dealer for this product . Does anyone have a contact ?

You will find no dealer for this amp because Innersound is no longer in business. If you want this amp, you will have to find it on the used market. However, if you want a new one, the designer and original owner of Innersound, Roger Sanders, has a new company and sells direct to the public. His company is Sanders Sound Systems and he sells an updated version of the ESL amplifier. There are lots of threads on this forum discussing these amps.

 

[Burke]

You will find no dealer for this amp because Innersound is no longer in business. If you want this amp, you will have to find it on the used market. However, if you want a new one, the designer and original owner of Innersound, Roger Sanders, has a new company and sells direct to the public. His company is Sanders Sound Systems and he sells an updated version of the ESL amplifier. There are lots of threads on this forum discussing these amps.

Roger has a used Innersound ESL for sale on his site, I think he took it in trade for a new one. It is less than half the cost and probably more than 80% of the performance of the new ones.

 

[nsgarch]

After my MF Tri-Vista amp went south I brought home a McIntosh MC2102 tube power amp and the C2200 pre-amp. There is no air, no high frquencies, no dynamics. My Unico Integrated from my den blows the doors off this combo in every way. Does anyone have any experience with this combo? My alternative will be a Classe CA-2200 which I have read good things about. The CP-500 pre-amp, not so much. Has anyone heard both the CP-700 and the CP-500? Comments?

I'd like to offer you an oppportunity to avoid the mistake of drawing a general conclusion from one single experience. Would you be willing to entertain the possibility that there are specific requirements involved in setting up this speaker/amp combo, and that maybe, due to to lack of information/experience (we've all been there, except for the know-it-alls) you may have failed to take a few things into account which, in another 10 years will be second nature to you?

First, although it will make music, the 2102 at 100W/ch is not enough power for the Summit -- and if you don't attenuate the bass controls quite a bit, the bass amps' gain will be out of balance (too loud) with the 2102. Further, you're driving two voltage hungry panels with one power supply.

The correct approach would be to use a pair of monoblocks of ~200W/ch, you might still have to attenuate the woofers, but only slightly -- depending on the volume of the room. Two McIntosh MC2102's (or two MC275's) run as monoblocks would be ideal for this purpose -- with two very important caveats, invariably overlooked by the less experienced hobbyist:
1.) In the current crop of McIntosh tube amps, the small inverter/multiplier tubes (12AX7's and 12AT7's) that come with the amp must not be used unless you are happy with muddy sound. Replacing them all with Telefunkens (which used to be the OEM MacTube) will bring the sonics to life, Do not attempt to evaluate your system without doing his first.
2.) Make sure the speaker cable you are using has a (low) capacitance of under 40 picofarads (pF) per foot. If you don't know, call the manufacturer. If he doesn't know, ask him to find out or to refund your purchase price. I'm serious about this. e.g. Cardas' cables, except for one of their budget models, are all over 250 pF/foot and will suck the life out of an electostat's air and sparkle. Of course, if you already had some Cardas speaker cables in your system, and didn't know about such things, you might simply assume the lousy sonics was due to some unknowable bad juju between that amp and that speaker. You might even share that misinformation with innocent people, like a flu virus uke:

 

[Gordon]

1.) In the current crop of McIntosh tube amps, the small inverter/multiplier tubes (12AX7's and 12AT7's) that come with the amp must not be used unless you are happy with muddy sound. Replacing them all with Telefunkens (which used to be the OEM MacTube) will bring the sonics to life, Do not attempt to evaluate your system without doing his first.

I am an inexperienced hobbyist. I still have the factory tubes in my pre and now wonder if I am missing something. I looked up the part numbers on the net and the number of applications to my untrained mind is staggering.

Could someone give me a recommendation of a dealer, suggested tubes or point in me in the direction of a good source for a primer on swapping tubes?

Gordon

 

[Bernard]

Could someone give me a recommendation of a dealer, suggested tubes or point in me in the direction of a good source for a primer on swapping tubes?

Gordon

Kevin Deal at www.upscaleaudio.com sounds like he's very knowledgeable. Unfortunately on some tubes if you did not buy the equipment from him, he charges you more.

 

[gmartan]

Thanks for this tidbit...

I'd like to offer you an oppportunity to avoid the mistake of drawing a general conclusion from one single experience. Would you be willing to entertain the possibility that there are specific requirements involved in setting up this speaker/amp combo, and that maybe, due to to lack of information/experience (we've all been there, except for the know-it-alls) you may have failed to take a few things into account which, in another 10 years will be second nature to you?

I've been doing this long enough to have owned gear created by Avery Fisher so I'm not entirely naive. The amps I tried subsequently were MC402 and MC275. I've had the C2300 and MC402 in the house for four months now. Given the Summits efficiency rating and the woofers being self powered 100 watts should be plenty for most music. Having spent some of my career in professional sound I don't accept the fact that six feet of OFC has significant impact on a McIntosh but not on three other amps that I have hooked up which do have an open and airy sound as well as grain free top end.

 

[nsgarch]

I've been doing this long enough to have owned gear created by Avery Fisher so I'm not entirely naive. The amps I tried subsequently were MC402 and MC275. I've had the C2300 and MC402 in the house for four months now. Given the Summits efficiency rating and the woofers being self powered 100 watts should be plenty for most music. Having spent some of my career in professional sound I don't accept the fact that six feet of OFC has significant impact on a McIntosh but not on three other amps that I have hooked up which do have an open and airy sound as well as grain free top end.

The assumption you are making (that "100 watts should be plenty for most music") would work if the speaker showed a nice constant impedance throughout its frequency, but most soeakers don't, and stats have big impedance drops. It's better if the impedance drops at high frequencies rather than low because it's easier on the amp, but they all do it; and so it's nice to have a little xtra juice (and a second power supply) in reserve.

I'm not sure what point was being made with respect to OFC copper. My suggestion (via Larry Sanders) was that attention be paid to using speaker cable with low capacitance. This is a factor of conductor layout and minimum stranding; not the materials per se.

 

[Rich]

The assumption you are making (that "100 watts should be plenty for most music") would work if the speaker showed a nice constant impedance throughout its frequency, but most soeakers don't, and stats have big impedance drops. It's better if the impedance drops at high frequencies rather than low because it's easier on the amp, but they all do it; and so it's nice to have a little xtra juice (and a second power supply) in reserve.

100 watts of output should be plenty to push the Summits, for a decently built amp. Lots of folks on this forum are running tube amps less than 100 wpc with the Summits and loving the sound. It has less to do with overall wattage and more to do with the quality of the amp. Neil, have you considered the possibility that the MC2102 is just not built very well to handle the demands of electrostats. Can you ever come up with any other suggestion for someone besides McIntosh? I mean listen to yourself . . . (to paraphrase) "buy two of them and run them as monoblocs, attenuate the bass controls, replace all the tubes, and then replace your speaker cables." And then they might sound decent. :wtf:

Why not suggest any of a number of other high quality tube or solid state amps that have absolutely no problem driving the load of the Summits. Let's see, ARC, CJ, BAT, Cary, Pass Labs, Sunfire, Plinius, Krell, Sanders Sound, etc. etc. etc. As much as I know you revere McIntosh, it is not the be-all end-all and is rarely the best choice for electrostats.

 

[Rich]

You might even share that misinformation with innocent people, like a flu virus uke:

Kind of like recommending McIntosh amps for Electrostatic speakers, which they are ill-equipped to drive.

 

[nsgarch]

Kind of like recommending McIntosh amps for Electrostatic speakers, which they are ill-equipped to drive.

Rich, in my case, I just wanted to get back to tubes with my stats. They are best equipped to drive a stat's capacitive load, while a stat is best to render the musical subtleties a tube amp preserves, Originally I had big ARC monoblocks for my CLS's, but when I moved, there was no room, so I put my not so shabby Levinson 23.5 in service until I could figure out what tube amp to buy. I had no brand in mind, just certain attributes: balanced inputs, because my Levinson pre has them, and I already had a 24 foot Venustas XLR IC. It had to be a stereo amp, because there was no room for monoblocs, and hopefully, it would sell (used) for roughly what I'd get for the Levinson.

When the MC275 emerged as one of just three (affordable ;-) candidates, I did a lot of listening at L&M Home Entertainment in Phoenix, authorized dealers for both brands. I spent time on speaker cables too. They don't sell Purist, but I heard Synergistic, Cardas, Audience, and Siltech. Siltech was best, Cardas worst. Later I found out why from Roger Sanders. So if you get my drift, I wanted to make the switch back to tubes with minimal system changes, and minimal additional cash outlay. And that's exactly what I did.

I don't fault McIntosh or any other tube equipment manufacturer for some of the crummy OEM tubes they wind up using -- they used to have many brands of high quality tubes available in abundance, at normal prices, but they just can't get them anymore. The good news is that currently made tubes are improving, even over the last five years. The NOS tubes are still better, but after all, making tubes is a lost art that (unbelievably!) has drawn the interest of a new generation of dedicated young people. Maybe they'll ressurect the art.

So as you can see, I didn't have to go to any extraordinary lengths whatsoever to re-introduce a tube amp; however, maintaining the system's synergy, so its performance will transcend the sum of the hardware, gives me the creative fulfillment audio provides.

Some will simply buy a room full of McIntosh, or a closet full of Armani and think they must have the best sound and look their best. Well they don't; yes, they may have selected those brands for a number of reasons; but the saddest part is, they haven't had any fun doing it. How boring!