ML Production moving

[zaphod]

I've seen stators painted colors other black by the custom shop. Although, I believe the are powdercoated but that is also available in other colors including grey if you want a custom look.

well, i'm looking at the new room having an art deco feel. not so much the opulent artdeco theatre houses, more the clean lines. there are some great room divider screens from that era. now think CLS panel ...

so it would be a VERY custom job ... not just a solid non-black colour.

my idea was to dissasemble the panels, do up the two front stators and then shop them to ML to reassemble into panels with new mylar and so on.

but Tim's comments that stators might be a lot harder to source for ML than we suspect got me thinking that my idea of sending in the old panels for a rebuild also solves the "stators might be hard to make" quandry.

maybe having a "send in your old panels for a rebuild" might be a way to make panel rebuilds easier for ML. i would still pay 1900 for a pair of new CLS panels even if i had to send in my old ones first.

heck, it also solves the problem of what to do with the old ones when i get new panels.

 

[amey01]

maybe having a "send in your old panels for a rebuild" might be a way to make panel rebuilds easier for ML. i would still pay 1900 for a pair of new CLS panels even if i had to send in my old ones first.

Sounds like a good idea, except it couldn't be for everyone. Imainge the shipping costs if I had to do that?

Careful what you wish for - you might just get it. By how much exactly do we want the costs of panels to go up?????

 

[FISH_MAN]

I think there is a lot of speculation and even a note of panic being expressed in some of these posts. I tried to explain the rationale of why Martin Logan might eventually stop producing legacy components, but I certainly wasn't intending to sound any alarms.

The only statement that Justin (speaking for Martin Logan) said was...
Yes we will continue to provide replacement panels for some older models (just like we do now), but as time moves forward we simply can't support EVERY model, especially the older ones.

That doesn't sound very finite to me.

I'm suprised that anyone is talking about resale value on their speakers. Did any of us really get into Hi-Fi as an investment?

Yes, there will always be a market for the resale of used speakers (and amps, and cables etc.), but I really don't think that Martin Logan suffers from resale erosion any worse than any other component/brand overall. Do they make money from the sale of replacement panels? Likely yes. But is it at the same margin that they garner from the sale of other (new) products? I'd be stunned if it were even close. Again, drawing on my own experience from a somewhat similar production environment I'd guess that it's somewhere around 5-6% if that (and we make 48-53% on new product sales depending on mix). It's all about economies of scale and production planning.

Let's say that I make 15,000 of my Class R fixtures per month. I've got my suppliers to deliver the material as I need it knowing that I'm going to bring it in the building, build the fixtures, ship them and invoice them before the end of the month. My supplier knows what materials I need, so he buys raw material based on that product, plus all the others that he knows I'm going to buy. He factors in his lead time to me, shipping time etc and in the end I know exactly what I'm going to get, when I'm going to get it and how much I'm paying for it.

I get a call from Customer Joe Blow asking if I can send him 12 feet of the Rave fixture I discontinued in 2006. I need to see if the perforator still has the tool to make the blank. He does, but we used a heavier gauge back then, so he'll need to order different material than what we currently use, and since we haven't used that material in several years it's a 6 week leadtime from the mill with a minimum buy of 2000 lbs. I need 3 four foot sections with a combined weight of 20 pounds. OK, I'll take the 2000 lbs and hope to use it someplace else; my supplier will hold the material for me as part of my stocking plan, but if I haven't consumed it in 3 months he's just going to send it to me regardless (essentially it's now my inventory). Now I've got material, but I need to get it formed and painted. The form die hasn't been used since 2006 either, so somebody needs to go find that. They do, but now they need to know when I want to take my standard production down to fit it in. Well, I can't let any current orders go past due, so I guess I'll pay them a premium to come in over the weekend and run it. I finally get all my parts, but my own production schedule is at capacity, so I'll also have to have somebody work overtime to build it. See how I didn't make any money on it?

The other option is to just go ahead and make all the components and keep them around, but again, inventory doesn't generate revenue until you ship it and invoice for it. In fact it actually ties up your cash flow so that you can't make more of the things that do make you more money.

What's a manufacturer to do?

you make some good points here from being in biz myself and working around a lot of other small businesses I know how some of these jobs that the consumer thinks should be easy often add up to be a major pain in the butt and even a loss.but you know that is a feather in the hat of a good manufacture that stops at nothing to provide excellent customer service. if there has ever been a better loss leader to carry it's customer service.as some other people have stated already the number of people actually needing those panels for certain models could be negligible well I hate to say it but this may be the numbers crunching I think Rich was talking about.

 

[cyclone]

I would like a clear answer to my question posed last week.

Will Martin Logan publish End Of Availability (EOA) timeframes for panels before discontinued?

This will allow us to purchase replacement parts while they are still available. Thank you.

If you think of it what would the most logical time for them to discontinue the certain replacement panels if they were to..............when they move production up north.

 

[zaphod]

If you think of it what would the most logical time for them to discontinue the certain replacement panels if they were to..............when they move production up north.

i know. my point.

and if that's the answer then fine, i'll order new panels now. but with the HT currently in a 8'x8'x5' stack of boxes, i'd prefer to hold off....

giving a heads up for EOA for panels that have previously been available without question is pretty darn important - will that be done?

Justin reads this board. he invited questions. he is putting forth a "don't worry" attitude.

so why has this simple question been ignored?

 

[-justin-]

i know. my point.

and if that's the answer then fine, i'll order new panels now. but with the HT currently in a 8'x8'x5' stack of boxes, i'd prefer to hold off....

giving a heads up for EOA for panels that have previously been available without question is pretty darn important - will that be done?

Justin reads this board. he invited questions. he is putting forth a "don't worry" attitude.

so why has this simple question been ignored?

Not ignoring at all (and it's not so simple). I'm trying to nail down an "official" answer for you guys -- remember, I'm not in charge of that stuff, but don't mind getting the answers for you. I've gotten the right people involved, so sit tight, I've have more info for you soon.

~Justin

 

[Keith]

Just wondering

"Customer Service really has been the hallmark of Martin Logan. Jim Power is a legend. I cannot think of any other Speaker Company where an Employee in his Position is so well known. Or known period."


Has anyone spoken with Jim lately? He might know how difficult it is to make the older panels.

 

[zaphod]

Not ignoring at all (and it's not so simple). I'm trying to nail down an "official" answer for you guys -- remember, I'm not in charge of that stuff, but don't mind getting the answers for you. I've gotten the right people involved, so sit tight, I've have more info for you soon.

~Justin

Thank you Justin, i appreciate your comments. however, i don't understand how giving a heads up before a product is made unavailable is anything but simple. i have done exactly the same thing in the past. it's a matter of planning and communication plain and simple. saying "it's not that simple" is a bit patronizing.

i could continue, but i'm getting really really steamed. the respect i've had for ML over the past 20 years is quickly vanishing.

 

[-justin-]

Thank you Justin, i appreciate your comments. however, i don't understand how giving a heads up before a product is made unavailable is anything but simple. i have done exactly the same thing in the past. it's a matter of planning and communication plain and simple. saying "it's not that simple" is a bit patronizing.

i could continue, but i'm getting really really steamed. the respect i've had for ML over the past 20 years is quickly vanishing.

What I mean by "not so simple" is that I (me personally) can't just throw out a list to you immediately, that's all (again, not involved with that process).

Yes, it is simple to give you a heads up, which is exactly what I plan to do, and working on it.

Thanks,
~Justin

 

[zaphod]

What I mean by "not so simple" is that I (me personally) can't just throw out a list to you immediately, that's all (again, not involved with that process).

Yes, it is simple to give you a heads up, which is exactly what I plan to do, and working on it.

Thanks,
~Justin

thank you Justin, i appreciate that you are the front man, and that many of the decisions are made by others. sorry i got heated there.

in case i was unclear, an EOA list now for every product would be hard if not impossible. i (and i suspect others) are more interested in a heads up allowing a last chance at buying panels. so if you decide to EOA panels for scenario, give a few months (weeks, days ...) notice. it wouldn't be fair to expect a full list of EOA's all at once.

heck, such a list would be detrimental to a product still being sold. if i was choosing between two speakers and one had long parts availability, then i'd swing away from the one that is closer to death's door.

again, sorry i got steamed.

 

[C.A.P]

thank you Justin, i appreciate that you are the front man, and that many of the decisions are made by others. sorry i got heated there.

in case i was unclear, an EOA list now for every product would be hard if not impossible. i (and i suspect others) are more interested in a heads up allowing a last chance at buying panels. so if you decide to EOA panels for scenario, give a few months (weeks, days ...) notice. it wouldn't be fair to expect a full list of EOA's all at once.

heck, such a list would be detrimental to a product still being sold. if i was choosing between two speakers and one had long parts availability, then i'd swing away from the one that is closer to death's door.

again, sorry i got steamed.

WILL THE CLS PANELS BE AVAILABLE???????? If not can I still get them now ! Easy question. YES or NO! and YEs and NO!

 

[zaphod]

Chris, right now, i'm looking at buying 2 pair, one for now, and one for 15 years from now. after 30 years i'll either be dead or deaf.

but no one has firm knowledge about how long in the box these things last. another question that seems to have been asked and ...

 

[Horchem1972]

Why not try and make a panel that would work on all CLS models,and all of the Monolith models.One panel for all models if possible would drastically reduce the cost,since larger runs can be made at once.If I could use the CLS panels for the Monoliths that would be great.I know the current differances between the panels and there is no reason why you could not use a CLS panel for Monolith's if the dimensions are the same.The issue with storing the panels is what happens if you get a bad panel from the get go.By the time it is discovered,you just threw away $1500.The CLS and the Monolith series has a distinct sound that is completely differant from the other models. Hopefully they will continue to support them.

 

[cyclone]

Why not try and make a panel that would work on all CLS models,and all of the Monolith models.One panel for all models if possible would drastically reduce the cost,since larger runs can be made at once.If I could use the CLS panels for the Monoliths that would be great.I know the current differances between the panels and there is no reason why you could not use a CLS panel for Monolith's if the dimensions are the same.The issue with storing the panels is what happens if you get a bad panel from the get go.By the time it is discovered,you just threw away $1500.The CLS and the Monolith series has a distinct sound that is completely differant from the other models. Hopefully they will continue to support them.

I said this before on another thread you could have a biannual order date on panels so runs could be larger and they wouldn't have to worry about having inventory.

 

[Gordon Gray]

WILL THE CLS PANELS BE AVAILABLE???????? If not can I still get them now ! Easy question. YES or NO! and YEs and NO!

Chris,

I'm not sure what you mean?

Seems like Justin / ML is trying to answer this and other panel replacement questions.

The joys of dealing with corporate.

Gordon

 

[Len44]

maybe having a "send in your old panels for a rebuild" might be a way to make panel rebuilds easier for ML. i would still pay 1900 for a pair of new CLS panels even if i had to send in my old ones first.

heck, it also solves the problem of what to do with the old ones when i get new panels.

Uh, is this not one of the possible solutions to this issue? :bowdown:

 

[zaphod]

Uh, is this not one of the possible solutions to this issue? :bowdown:

Not that we've heard from ML. it might not have occured to them, and in a thread this long, it might not have been noted/spotted.

Justin - has this idea been tossed into the "what to do about legacy panels?" solution bucket?

but it does address the materials problem that Tim and others pointed out (ie: the stators are not neccesarily as easy to source as they were 20 years back).

yes, there would be additional shipping and it sucks to be antipodal, but it would suck even more to not have panels available at all.

 

[C.A.P]

Why not try and make a panel that would work on all CLS models,and all of the Monolith models.One panel for all models if possible would drastically reduce the cost,since larger runs can be made at once.If I could use the CLS panels for the Monoliths that would be great.I know the current differances between the panels and there is no reason why you could not use a CLS panel for Monolith's if the dimensions are the same.The issue with storing the panels is what happens if you get a bad panel from the get go.By the time it is discovered,you just threw away $1500.The CLS and the Monolith series has a distinct sound that is completely differant from the other models. Hopefully they will continue to support them.

The CLS and Monolith are the same size BUT totally different designs. The CLS has separate bass sections and mid range sections. The Monolith has only mid range and mid bass.

Chris,

I'm not sure what you mean?

Seems like Justin / ML is trying to answer this and other panel replacement questions.

The joys of dealing with corporate.

Gordon

Im telling ya......... Mushroom Management. Feed me Sh_t and keep me in the dark.

Uh, is this not one of the possible solutions to this issue? :bowdown:

I have a spare set of blown panels that could be sent in for re- mylar. If that ever became an option ! Definitely keep the cost down. I know taking them apart is a tedious job but it can be done.

 

[Horchem1972]

The CLS and Monolith are the same size BUT totally different designs. The CLS has separate bass sections and mid range sections. The Monolith has only mid range and mid bass.


I know what the differances are.I have owned both the CLS and the Monolith's.You could use the panels in the CLS in the Monolith's and it would allow you to cross the woofers over at a lower point.I think it may actually benefit them by being able to cross them over at a lower level.It would be the best of both worlds.The very bottom end would be better integrated,it is a straight up design with the panel off the ground,and the frames are already more rigid than the original CLS.The Monolith's 176lbs weight will be as solid a base as you can get.I think it is a win win situation for CLS owners and Monolith owners.This allows them to cover all CLS and Monolith models with 1 panel.It would drasticallly reduce cost.This option is better than completely not supplying panels.

 

[-justin-]

Guys, I got some answers to the service panels question after a conversation with Rob Zimmerman (for those who aren't following along, he's heading up the transition team):

"Service panels will continue to be hand-built here in Lawrence, KS. That might change at some point in the next few years, but for now we will continue to build those in the US."

As far as which models we will still replace? For now, Rob tells me they can do all models, and that won't change for AT LEAST another 6 months. BUT, during that time, they will be evaluating that policy.

I will let everyone know ahead of time with any decisions about this policy, and I'll be sure to let YOU know as soon as I know.

~Justin