Martin Logan Shower Cleaning PDF

[Big Dog RJ]

This is all very interesting. How I get around all of this is...........I put the black covers on my Classic 9's when ever they are not in use, so they are not exposed to much. Only me in the house, no furry pets. I got OCD bad when it comes to dust in the listening space or anywhere in the home for that matter .

I do exactly the same, everything is covered from head to toe. Black covers on CLX's plus all the gear as well, cloth / pillow covers on top. Especially the TT rig, got two very curious cats... The BF210 is covered as well with spare tubes on top. Each component has spare (burnt out) tubes sitting on them, this sort of keeps those furry fellas away... I guess they're scared of the flame if it lights up!
A serious Vacuum session takes place before listening, unless I was listening on consecutive days. Otherwise vacuum twice a week before uncovering, this all takes about 15 - 20mins, so it's become an annoying ritual but needs to get done. Very ocd here as well, and nothing's allowed to spill on the floor either!

Keep it clean mate! It's worth it.
Woof! RJ

 

[Coilman1]

Hi Guys, what is the time duration that you used the ML before considering the wash?

 

[18000rpm]

Hi Guys, what is the time duration that you used the ML before considering the wash?

The time duration varies greatly. It can be 6-20 years. But it should be very clear - when your speaker starts to sound muffled and missing treble, that's when you need to replace the panels or consider washing them.

 

[Mirolab]

My 1995 SL3's started sounding somewhat dark by 2015. I lent them to a friend for about 3 years, and when I got them back, that's when I realized they were in trouble. With the woofers turned down (with the rear switch) they sounded just OK, but still dark. I got my new panels in 2021, and they are amazing!

 

[Robert D]

My 1995 SL3's started sounding somewhat dark by 2015. I lent them to a friend for about 3 years, and when I got them back, that's when I realized they were in trouble. With the woofers turned down (with the rear switch) they sounded just OK, but still dark. I got my new panels in 2021, and they are amazing!

My Prodigy speakers were the same. Using Audyssey DSP on them actually made them sound decent, but nowhere near optimal. The bass was way down to compensate. They were about 21 years old at the time.

 

[Mark F]

Thanks to all suggestions and posters contributing to the washing ML panels thread! I recently acquired some SL3s with cat punctures in the film. In listening to them, it was apparent that they sound better than my Sequel IIs with original panels and no cat punctures. Sequel IIs were given a 10 min warm water wash focusing on the fronts. They were finished with a liberal dousing of distilled water, a towel dry and several minutes with a hair dryer blowing cold air.

After 24 hours, they were taken for a test drive and have greatly improved transparency and imaging. They are now similar in sound to the SL3s... Probably half way between where they were and what new panels might sound like. Bass still seems slightly exaggerated so panel efficiency is likely still lower then woofer efficiency. Before and after wash photos are attached... some but not all of the black residue on the mylar was removed. Assuming the residue is related to sound degradation, would it make sense to wash them again using simple green?

Suppose my real question is whether anyone has damaged their panels washing with simple green or if there is risk of removing the vapor deposited conductive layer? If low risk, I'm gonna roll the dice and go for it!

Cheers, Mark

 

[Jazzman53]

Does anyone have an opinion on using a mild detergent like diluted Dawn or Simple Green to break up any oil or grease that no doubt many of us have from either environmental or household (cooking) factors?


Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk

DO NOT use soap!

FYI: Most liquid hand soaps, and practically all brands of dish washing liquid contain sodium laurel sulfate, which is CONDUCTIVE, and would create shorting paths out the wazoo.

You might get away with it if you rinsed it off thoroughly but it's a risk I wouldn't take.

Many ESL builders have used dish soap as the conductive coating on their diaphragms (works quite well but attracts dust). It was popular option before Licron Crystal, Staticide and other ESD coatings came along.

I think it would be good to use a soap if you can find one that doesn't contain sodium laurel sulfate.

 

[Mark F]

Simple Green does not contain Sodium Laurel Sulfate, at least it's not listed on the SDS. Suppose it could be the proprietary surfactant and is not listed since its relatively non-toxic.

It would be nice to completely remove black residue from the panels since I suspect the degradation in sound quality and the black residue are related.

 

[Jazzman53]

Simple Green does not contain Sodium Laurel Sulfate, at least it's not listed on the SDS. Suppose it could be the proprietary surfactant and is not listed since its relatively non-toxic.

It would be nice to completely remove black residue from the panels since I suspect the degradation in sound quality and the black residue are related.

Sodium laurel sulfate is a surfactant but it's so ubiquitous I can't imagine it would be hidden under a proprietary cloak if it were in there.

If I think about it when I'm grocery shopping tomorrow, I'll pick up a bottle of that Simple Green and test it with my "poor man's meager to see if it conducts better than a sheet of glass. If not; its completely safe. What I don't know is how much conduction (above zero) would be OK.

Here's my poor man's megger:

 

[Robert D]

Isnt another worry about using cleaners like Simple Green that they could remove the conductive coating from the mylar membrane?

 

[Jazzman53]

Isnt another worry about using cleaners like Simple Green that they could remove the conductive coating from the mylar membrane?

I don't know what the coating is. I can tell you that the 20-yr old Theater panel I just rebuild had a glossy coating on it that probably would not be affected by a mild detergent. I don't know what ML uses on newer panels.

 

[Mark F]

Based on the presence of HCl, Sodium Bicarbonate and other ionics listed on the Simple Green SDS, rest assured it will fail any conductivity test you may wish to perform. I've rethought my use of Simple Green and won't be using it to wash the panels although it might be just fine if thoroughly rinsed.

Would still like to find a no-residue cleaner that would remove black schmutz from the mylar without affecting the charge holding capacity of the film. Pretty sure that black residue isn't helping with sonic detail.

 

[Robert D]

Based on the presence of HCl, Sodium Bicarbonate and other ionics listed on the Simple Green SDS, rest assured it will fail any conductivity test you may wish to perform. I've rethought my use of Simple Green and won't be using it to wash the panels although it might be just fine if thoroughly rinsed.

Would still like to find a no-residue cleaner that would remove black schmutz from the mylar without affecting the charge holding capacity of the film. Pretty sure that black residue isn't helping with sonic detail.

Some folks are so careful that they only use distilled water. I'm not sure if that's warranted. Definitely don't want to use your tap water if it's hard I bet.

 

[Mirolab]

When I washed my SL3 panels, I took them to the backyard and hit them with the force of the hose, but not so hard that it separated the layers. I taped the sides to keep them from separating. I did not want to use soaps or solvents. I then blew the water out with an air compressor, rather than letting the tapwater drops dry onto the mylar, and leave a residue.

Washing the panels brought them back to life, and made them listenable for a couple more years, when I finally decided to order new panels. I installed new panels about 3 years ago, and they've been great. I also upgraded the crossover caps, which opened up the HFs even more. Wait a few months before addressing the crossover though, to let the panels break in. Then you can hear the contribution of the new caps.

 

[Mark F]

Hi Mirolab, Can you clarify whether washing with a garden hose and drying with compressed air removed all black residue visible in the panel perforations? What's bothering me is I washed my panels with warm water in the shower and that was not sufficient to remove all residue as measured visually with pix of the mylar. Somehow my brain has me convinced there is a correlation between visual cleanliness and purity of sound (no data to support that, just my brain thinking to much).

 

[Mirolab]

Mine did not have a blackish residue.... just a bit of a haze, rather than perfectly clear. After showering, i would say the haze was less, but not gone, and I would expect it impossible to "wipe clean" by just spraying it. As mentioned earlier, cleaning too aggressively could start to compromise the conductive coating. There's simply limitations to the cleaning idea. At some point you just have to suck it up, and get new panels. If your SL3's are in good shape otherwise, then for less than $2k you'll have near new speakers that perform like $6-10k speakers.
For my SL3's, the hardest part was dealing with the old (now gummy) foam rubber weatherstripping that held the panel in place (and the lower woofer grills). I removed all the old stuff, and used new foam weatherstripping, and had to beef up the mounting of the woofer grills, as mine kept sliding down.

 

[Jazzman53]

On the Theater panel I recently refurbished, I noted that the diaphragm coating was omitted over the spars, and about 3/16" on either side. Those areas had been masked off before the coating was applied.

I think the reason ML did this was to prevent charge from migrating to the spars and creating an unequal charge distribution (and unequal output) across the diaphragm. Charge moves to areas closest to a stator, and on any curved panel, tension across the curve pulls the diaphragm toward the rear stator, in the center areas between spars. So; the diaphragm will always be closer to the front stator near the spars.

I now see another reason (other than unequal charge distribution) to omit the diaphragm coating near the spars. That is; dust buildup on the spar edges holds moisture, which then presents a conductive shorting path from the diaphragm to the stators. Omtting the coating in the areas adjacent to the spars acts like a fire-break preventing charge from reaching those spar shorting paths.

Yes, rebuilding that Theater panel was a learning experience for me

 

[Mark F]

Wow, you rebuilt a Theater panel? I've got an older Logos which never really got much use as it's not a tonal balance for my Sequel IIs. Wondered how much work it would be to clean the panels but can't find any disassembly instructions.

Over time, my system has gone from Stereo with time delay on rear channels to 5.1 to 5.1 DTS and back to Stereo with time delay on rear speakers. Somehow electrostatics sound best playing a clean stereo signal.

 

[Jazzman53]

Wow, you rebuilt a Theater panel? I've got an older Logos which never really got much use as it's not a tonal balance for my Sequel IIs. Wondered how much work it would be to clean the panels but can't find any disassembly instructions.

Yes, the owner removed the Theater panel from its speaker and shipped it to me for a rebuild, which is documented on my website here:
https://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com/2011/11/compensating-diplole-phase-cancellation.html

That was my only experience with an ML panel. I've never removed one from its speaker but there's probably someone on this forum who has, and could give you directions.

 

[jmanny]

I just did this with a pair of Ascents (original foam type standoffs not clear spar fyi).
I removed the panels and used wooden clothes pins all along the edges of the panels to hold them tight together to prevent slipping.
I went the Simple green route, placed both panels upside down on a towel in the bathtub and used simple green sprayed full strength straight from the bottle onto the panels both sides , starting at the top and worked my way down using a firm trigger pull and a pretty focused spray setting to maximize the force.
Did that twice in a row both sides, let sit for about 10 minutes then used shower head on relatively gentle setting and cold water and rinsed top to bottom multiple times both sides to be sure no residue was left and then carefully rinsed each side top to bottom with distilled water from the gallon jug going slow enough to be thorough, section by section, then used hairdryer on cool setting top to bottom slowly enough to help the water to the bottom and let sit for 2 days before removing and then life happened and it took 2 weeks before I could mount them back up and just tried them this evening and the results were great!
The highs just sparkle!
They are noticeably more transparent and gleam like mirrors from across the room.
I didn't try scrubbing them or try using a towel to dry them as I didn't want to introduce dust from the towel etc. back into the panel etc.
I also didn't notice any color or filth to speak of in the runoff but the panels were clearly more transparent than before.
Super pleased with the result!
Hope this helps someone and good luck with your efforts.

How did your panels work out in the long run? I'm about to follow your steps on an ESL panel that's basically completely dead. This will be a massive life saver to bring it back to life. So you just sprayed the panels with the basic Simply Green spray cleaner first, then washed the simply green cleaner off the front and back of the panels with your regular shower head, then washed the panels front and back with distilled water? Did you put the distilled water in a spray bottle to spray it on the panels or just took a gallon jug of distilled water and slowly poured it on the panels? Sorry if these questions are stupid, lol I just really don't want to mess this up!


Is the kind of Simply Green you used?:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S4D8QQ8/ref=twister_B0BWV3TZTT?_encoding=UTF8&th=1