Martin Logan Panel Repair Available In Germany

[amey01]

B&W 802D price list, prices are each:

Diamond Tweeter w/ housing $1223
Midrange $312


So the equivalent of panel replacement on the 802d will cost more than $3000. Unless you factor in used market pricing, MLs replacement panel costs aren't that bad and probably on par with other hifi brands.

Consider this - it is really not too hard to see:

Are the tweeters in an 802D consumable?

Are every pair of B&W 802Ds made going to require at the very least one or two replacement diamond tweeters in their lifetime?

The ONLY REASON YOU WOULD EVER NEED A REPLACEMENT B&W diamond tweeter is if you were very unlucky (ie. well less than 1% of cases) or if you were irresponsible and over-drove them.

What is it that (some) people on this forum don't get about this?

I've made it very clear that I have no problem with ML charging what they like for other replacement parts.

No vendetta - I'm just very concerned about my very significant investment and the future viability of that asset.

 

[jmschnur]

Actually all electronic components go bad over time. Tweeters will wear no matter how they are made, the surrounds for woofers loose their tensile strength over time. Capacitors and resisters in xovers change value. All of these things happened in my B&W 801s, my Hafler 200, my Dahlquist DQ 10, and my Carver 1.5 mT.

The 801s were quite expensive to bring back, more so then the prices being quoted on the older Martin Logan panels.

Sorry, entropy wins: always; it is just a question of time.


J

 

[amey01]

Sorry, entropy wins: always; it is just a question of time.


J

Yes certainly - a question of time and also a question of severity over that time.

Panels are different. If you can't see something so blatently obvious then I give up.

Comparing a consumable ES panel (that might experience 100% degradation over 20 years [or less] and will more than likely experience at least 20-50% deviation from ideal over 10 years) to a diamond tweeter which might experience 2-3 % deviation from ideal over its lifetime is just pointless and a waste of MLO bandwidth.

 

[Hocky]

Those tweeters and woofers most certainly wear out. And really, it is pretty common to blow those diamond tweeters on a not so long term schedule. They might be less susceptible to environmental issues, but the problems still exist.

 

[Rich]

You guys just don't get it. Replacement panel prices have never risen and ML wasn't losing any money over it. New management comes in and decides they can save some money by discontinuing legacy model support, and when they do the crap hits the fan. So, they backtrack, wait a year, and then quietly double and triple prices of replacement panels, effectively achieving their goal of ending legacy model support . . . or at least turning a handsome profit from it. They are making a killing off of these replacement panels, and in so doing they are reaming their loyal customers. Not the kind of company that I will give any future business to. There are too many good speaker companies out there that are still small businesses run by people who actually care about their customers.

 

[amey01]

Those tweeters and woofers most certainly wear out. And really, it is pretty common to blow those diamond tweeters on a not so long term schedule. They might be less susceptible to environmental issues, but the problems still exist.

Oh yes. Because we talk about woofer and cap replacement all the time on this forum, don't we?

How many 10 year+ ML ESL panels are operating within 1-2% deviation from original spec? None of them?

How many 10 year+ ML woofers are operating within 1-2% deviation from original spec? All of them?

How many 10 year+ old MLs are running original panels? 10% 20%?

How many 10 year+ old MLs are running original woofers? 95%? 98% More?

None are so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Hocky]

You guys just don't get it. Replacement panel prices have never risen and ML wasn't losing any money over it. New management comes in and decides they can save some money by discontinuing legacy model support, and when they do the crap hits the fan. So, they backtrack, wait a year, and then quietly double and triple prices of replacement panels, effectively achieving their goal of ending legacy model support . . . or at least turning a handsome profit from it. They are making a killing off of these replacement panels, and in so doing they are reaming their loyal customers. Not the kind of company that I will give any future business to. There are too many good speaker companies out there that are still small businesses run by people who actually care about their customers.

No, we're on the same page. I am not saying that the price hike was right, especially the way that it was done. However, in the grand scheme of things, I understand and everyone else is charging similar money. If it costs me $2700 to nearly entire overhaul $10-15k speakers, I did ok. The only place that it really hurts is the used market.

Oh yes. Because we talk about woofer and cap replacement all the time on this forum, don't we?

How many 10 year+ ML ESL panels are operating within 1-2% deviation from original spec? None of them?

How many 10 year+ ML woofers are operating within 1-2% deviation from original spec? All of them?

How many 10 year+ old MLs are running original panels? 10% 20%?

How many 10 year+ old MLs are running original woofers? 95%? 98% More?

None are so blind as those who will not see.

There have been a fair number of threads here regarding woofer replacement on older models - I would guess that it is pretty common. I actually was just listening to a 20 year old pair of infinities the other day and I can guarantee you that they were no where near 1-2% deviation from new - probably nowhere near 40-50% deviation.

 

[jmschnur]

I would be interested in seeing a table of time versus freq response for various ML electrostatics . Where did you get your data ?

Using my phonics meter my Vantage speakers show the same response 20-20k for the first 5 years. I vacuum my panels every month .

Should I expect major changes in the next few years?

J

 

[amey01]

I would be interested in seeing a table of time versus freq response for various ML electrostatics . Where did you get your data ?

Using my phonics meter my Vantage speakers show the same response 20-20k for the first 5 years. I vacuum my panels every month .

Should I expect major changes in the next few years?

J

Well, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence right here on these forums.

 

[sleepysurf]

I have no doubt that ML stat panels deteriorate over time, but then again, so is my hearing. Sure wish I could buy some replacement ears 10+ years from now!

 

[Horchem1972]

No, we're on the same page. I am not saying that the price hike was right, especially the way that it was done. However, in the grand scheme of things, I understand and everyone else is charging similar money. If it costs me $2700 to nearly entire overhaul $10-15k speakers, I did ok. The only place that it really hurts is the used market.

The point is it costs $3000 for Monolith panels when new they were $5000 speakers not $10-$15K. The scenario you played out your panels would cost $6000- $9000 for panels. Would you like to pay that amount for panels? I would happily only pay $1250 for panels if I used your numbers. Try looking at it from a legacy owners point of view instead of owning just the newer models.

 

[Hocky]

No, we're on the same page. I am not saying that the price hike was right, especially the way that it was done. However, in the grand scheme of things, I understand and everyone else is charging similar money. If it costs me $2700 to nearly entire overhaul $10-15k speakers, I did ok. The only place that it really hurts is the used market.

The point is it costs $3000 for Monolith panels when new they were $5000 speakers not $10-$15K. The scenario you played out your panels would cost $6000- $9000 for panels. Would you like to pay that amount for panels? I would happily only pay $1250 for panels if I used your numbers. Try looking at it from a legacy owners point of view instead of owning just the newer models.

Monolith's were $5000 in 1983. That is the same thing as a >$10k pair.

 

[Horchem1972]

Monolith's were $5000 in 1983. That is the same thing as a >$10k pair.

By your logic then panel prices should only be twice the original cost back in 1983. Since I only know the cost was $700 within the last two years, my panels should cost $1400 or less. Using your logic, you just proved to yourself panel prices are absurd.

 

[Hocky]

By your logic then panel prices should only be twice the original cost back in 1983. Since I only know the cost was $700 within the last two years, my panels should cost $1400 or less. Using your logic, you just proved to yourself panel prices are absurd.

I never suggested that the price increase had anything to do with inflation cost.

 

[Horchem1972]

I never suggested that the price increase had anything to do with inflation cost.

What are you exactly trying to say? Do you believe that triple the panel price is just or not? Do you really believe that parts have tripled in the last 1-2 years?

 

[Hocky]

No, I don't believe that the tripling of prices was just, especially without notice. But the real question I ask is were they always lower than all of their competition and maybe artificially low? I would suspect that today they're inline with the rest of the market.

 

[Len44]

No, I don't believe that the tripling of prices was just, especially without notice. But the real question I ask is were they always lower than all of their competition and maybe artificially low? I would suspect that today they're inline with the rest of the market.

I would just note that not one person at ML has suggested this line of resoning in any of their attempts to justify their dramatic price increases...

 

[amey01]

No, I don't believe that the tripling of prices was just, especially without notice. But the real question I ask is were they always lower than all of their competition and maybe artificially low? I would suspect that today they're inline with the rest of the market.

You're fighting an uphill battle (or you from Shoresight?)........there is no "rest of market" because ES panels are vastly different to anything else on the market. And almost every other ES panel I know (esp. Quad) has a much longer life expectancy than ML. ML's panels are "consumable" - I don't know of any other speaker manufacturer with consumable parts. That - is significant.

 

[Hocky]

All speaker drivers are consumable. You're out of your mind if you think that they're not. The only difference is that they're less likely to fail in a short time due to environmental issues like the stat panels are.

 

[jmschnur]

Clean air environment with humidity control and frequent vacuuming does significantly increase lifetime.


J