Martin Logan 13A's and a subwoofer pairing question.

[Rich]

Personally, for me, best bang for the buck for a high quality subwoofer, I would check out the subs from PSA and Rythmik. I think you would end up getting higher quality, better sounding subs for less money from either brand than you would get from SVS, REL, or ML. And if 90% or more of your listening is with movies, sealed is not the way to go. Get a pair of decent sized (15” or greater) ported subs. You will not regret this decision.

 

[Robert D]

Just using my single BF 210 provides a lot of bass, plenty for movies in my room. The room is about 20 x20. Last night the dang screen on the gas fireplace was rattling. Its powerful enough that it moves pictures on the wall in the next room over, the kitchen.

 

[BDH55]

Bdh55, how did you add a subwoofer to your center channel? I’m using a ml cinema center, running off a Rotel amp. Using a Yamaha 2000 reciever as a ht preamp. I have two subs, only using one in ht mode. Having a sub in the center is a great idea. Thanks.

I 'was' using a REL high level connection directly off my center channel amp (Parasound A31). IOW, there was the speaker cable that ran to my ML Illusion center, and a separate REL cable that ran to my REL T/9i center sub. You would either need to talk to REL or spend some time on the REL How To's page to figure out how to connect your Rotel.

Also, the reason I mentioned 'I was using'..... is that I'm in the middle of an amp upgrade and moving from my A31 (and A23+), to a five channel Anthem P5. The P5 isn't yet installed as I need to pull a new circuit in to support it (it requires two separate AC circuits)... so I haven't yet confirmed the REL connection to the new P5.

Following is a good article about why REL recommends this configuration.

Center Channel Speakers Are Center Stage in REL 3-D

 

[twodogs112]

Thank you for clarification. I might try this in the future. Enjoy your new amp.

 

[iluvboxing]

I have 15a paired with six Rel S/812 and I’m really curious about a pair of ML 212.

What has been your experience with the stacked S/812s? Is your setup 2 channels only or is it also used for home theater?

 

[iluvboxing]

I 'was' using a REL high level connection directly off my center channel amp (Parasound A31). IOW, there was the speaker cable that ran to my ML Illusion center, and a separate REL cable that ran to my REL T/9i center sub. You would either need to talk to REL or spend some time on the REL How To's page to figure out how to connect your Rotel.

Also, the reason I mentioned 'I was using'..... is that I'm in the middle of an amp upgrade and moving from my A31 (and A23+), to a five channel Anthem P5. The P5 isn't yet installed as I need to pull a new circuit in to support it (it requires two separate AC circuits)... so I haven't yet confirmed the REL connection to the new P5.

Following is a good article about why REL recommends this configuration.

Center Channel Speakers Are Center Stage in REL 3-D

What influenced you to move away from the two Parasound amps to one Anthem amp?

 

[Northy]

I have paired my Theos with a single Balanced Force 210 and could not be any happier. The bass is taught, lightning-fast and well-defined worthy of the panels.

 

[Robert D]

I have paired my Theos with a single Balanced Force 210 and could not be any happier. The bass is taught, lightning-fast and well-defined worthy of the panels.

Yes. With my Prodigies, sometimes I walk over to the sub to make sure it's on. It blends that well.

 

[Rich]

I think you guys recommending the BF 210 are making a poor recommendation for O.P.’s needs. Yes, they blend great with ML’s for music and are quality subs for that purpose. But O.P. stated he wants to place these in a 16’x20’ home theater that is open to the kitchen and listens to 95% movies and 5% music. The ML’s would be drastically under-powered and over-priced for that application. Two 10” woofers in a small sealed cabinet and an 800 watt amp is simply not going to provide adequate bass in O.P.’s situation. For less money than a pair of BF 210’s, he could get a pair of 15” or 18” ported subwoofers from PSA or Rythmik that would blow away the BF 210’s for home theater usage in a room that size. O.P., I strongly suggest you research this question on the AVS forum, where people tend to be more focused on home theater use rather than music.

 

[Robert D]

I think you guys recommending the BF 210 are making a poor recommendation for O.P.’s needs. Yes, they blend great with ML’s for music and are quality subs for that purpose. But O.P. stated he wants to place these in a 16’x20’ home theater that is open to the kitchen and listens to 95% movies and 5% music. The ML’s would be drastically under-powered and over-priced for that application. Two 10” woofers in a small sealed cabinet and an 800 watt amp is simply not going to provide adequate bass in O.P.’s situation. For less money than a pair of BF 210’s, he could get a pair of 15” or 18” ported subwoofers from PSA or Rythmik that would blow away the BF 210’s for home theater usage in a room that size. O.P., I strongly suggest you research this question on the AVS forum, where people tend to be more focused on home theater use rather than music.

Not so sure about that. I use mine for about 90% movies too, and that single BF 210 rattles my walls. Ive had to go around the room and try to put sound absorption materials on things like picture frames so that they dont make noise. It even rattles a door so bad that I end up putting a paper towel on top of the door when I close it.

My room is 20x20 and open to the kitchen as well. The kitchen is big too, and has an eat in dining area. The house is about 3200 sq ft. So from my experience, the single BF 210 is plenty for everything. I only have the volume knob set to a little under 1/2 too, so it could get a lot louder.

 

[Rich]

Not so sure about that. I use mine for about 90% movies too, and that single BF 210 rattles my walls. Ive had to go around the room and try to put sound absorption materials on things like picture frames so that they dont make noise. It even rattles a door so bad that I end up putting a paper towel on top of the door when I close it.

My room is 20x20 and open to the kitchen as well. The kitchen is big too, and has an eat in dining area. The house is about 3200 sq ft. So from my experience, the single BF 210 is plenty for everything. I only have the volume knob set to a little under 1/2 too, so it could get a lot louder.

Robert, I understand what you’re saying. But honestly, “rattles my walls” is not a good indication of subwoofer performance. That speaks more to the quality of wall construction and possibly lack of decoupling between sub and floor. It could be any specific frequency between 20 and 120 Hz. or higher causing that rattle. This is no indication of how good your response is from 20-60 Hz. or even below 20 Hz. In other words, if it’s an 80 hz. frequency causing the rattle, that tells you nothing about how much output you are getting between 20-60 Hz., which is where a lot of important movie effects fall. Have you measured your actual frequency response in your room to know what kind of decibel levels you’re even getting between 20-60 Hz? How much distortion is introduced when you play it at reference levels?

It all comes down to what your expectations are. Home cinema “reference” level is generally considered to be 79 dB. Subs need 30 dB of headroom over that for peaks. So, ideally, your subs for home theater should be able to hit 109 dB peaks from at least 20-120 Hz., without introducing lots of distortion. Now most people probably don’t want to play it that loud, for reasons like the walls rattling, disturbing the neighbors, etc. As I said, it all comes down to expectations. But for the cost of the BF-210 compared to competitors, I would expect reference level performance. The bottom line is the BF-210 is really designed to pair well with ML’s for music, not for home theater. A small cabinet sealed sub is at an inherent disadvantage especially in the 20-40 Hz. range for home theater use. For the cost of a single BF-210, you could probably get a pair of ported subs from Rythmik or PSA that would perform much better for home theater.

The truth is, just about any sub sounds “good enough” until you hear a better performing sub in the same room. It’s hard to understand what you are missing until you experience the difference. That’s why measuring and calibrating are so important for subs. To understand how they are actually performing in the room. By the way, having your amp volume just under half probably means you’ve got just over 3 dB headroom. Remember, it takes double the amp power to raise the output by 3 dB. And that’s not a lot louder. That’s about the minimum amount of headroom you would want.

 

[Northy]

I am with Robert. I take quality over quantity any day of the week. 2 Balanced Force 210's will blow away the other brands. If I make a correction, each subwoofer has a 1,700 watt ICE amp - very under-spec'd but over-delivered. Movie scores are not only exaggerated blow-up bass. They comprise of well-recorded classical soundtrack from the likes of Hans Zimmer, Jerry Smith, John Williams, etc. You want to hear these composers in all their glory with the outmost quality.

 

[Robert D]

Robert, I understand what you’re saying. But honestly, “rattles my walls” is not a good indication of subwoofer performance. That speaks more to the quality of wall construction and possibly lack of decoupling between sub and floor. It could be any specific frequency between 20 and 120 Hz. or higher causing that rattle. This is no indication of how good your response is from 20-60 Hz. or even below 20 Hz. In other words, if it’s an 80 hz. frequency causing the rattle, that tells you nothing about how much output you are getting between 20-60 Hz., which is where a lot of important movie effects fall. Have you measured your actual frequency response in your room to know what kind of decibel levels you’re even getting between 20-60 Hz? How much distortion is introduced when you play it at reference levels?

It all comes down to what your expectations are. Home cinema “reference” level is generally considered to be 79 dB. Subs need 30 dB of headroom over that for peaks. So, ideally, your subs for home theater should be able to hit 109 dB peaks from at least 20-120 Hz., without introducing lots of distortion. Now most people probably don’t want to play it that loud, for reasons like the walls rattling, disturbing the neighbors, etc. As I said, it all comes down to expectations. But for the cost of the BF-210 compared to competitors, I would expect reference level performance. The bottom line is the BF-210 is really designed to pair well with ML’s for music, not for home theater. A small cabinet sealed sub is at an inherent disadvantage especially in the 20-40 Hz. range for home theater use. For the cost of a single BF-210, you could probably get a pair of ported subs from Rythmik or PSA that would perform much better for home theater.

The truth is, just about any sub sounds “good enough” until you hear a better performing sub in the same room. It’s hard to understand what you are missing until you experience the difference. That’s why measuring and calibrating are so important for subs. To understand how they are actually performing in the room. By the way, having your amp volume just under half probably means you’ve got just over 3 dB headroom. Remember, it takes double the amp power to raise the output by 3 dB. And that’s not a lot louder. That’s about the minimum amount of headroom you would want.

I should measure the levels. I don't have the hardware or software now. I do have the PBK kit for the BF sub. I ran that and I feel like it sounds better with that on. When watching movies I never feel like it's lacking. Some frequencies I can even feel it vibrate my body. Like in some John Wick scenes the bullets feel like they are striking me. Atmos helps too.

What would I use to measure the dB levels of my sub? When I play a movie, the level on the receiver is usually around 70. I used a cheesy sound meter on my smart phone and the levels seem to average around that. I suppose that's the average level of all frequencies?

 

[Robert D]

I am with Robert. I take quality over quantity any day of the week. 2 Balanced Force 210's will blow away the other brands. If I make a correction, each subwoofer has a 1,700 watt ICE amp - very under-spec'd but over-delivered. Movie scores are not only exaggerated blow-up bass. They comprise of well-recorded classical soundtrack from the likes of Hans Zimmer, Jerry Smith, John Williams, etc. You want to hear these composers in all their glory with the outmost quality.

If this recession hits like I think it will, I will build a new home and spend on a home theater in the basement. Then I will pick up a 2nd BF 210. I could get another now, but I feel like the one is good enough! I'm like you and feel like they do well for home theater too.

My only complaint is the shaking crap on my walls. Doors, pictures, fireplace screen, etc. Even the candle sticks on the mantle may rattle. Just a pain. I need a room for home theater only, and will have the walls built decoupled. Maybe some insulation in the walls too. There are some places here in town that specialize in it.

 

[ttocs]

I should measure the levels. I don't have the hardware or software now. I do have the PBK kit for the BF sub. I ran that and I feel like it sounds better with that on. When watching movies I never feel like it's lacking. Some frequencies I can even feel it vibrate my body. Like in some John Wick scenes the bullets feel like they are striking me. Atmos helps too.

What would I use to measure the dB levels of my sub? When I play a movie, the level on the receiver is usually around 70. I used a cheesy sound meter on my smart phone and the levels seem to average around that. I suppose that's the average level of all frequencies?

Cheesy meters work just fine for a "close enough" kinda usage.
Phone apps work very well!

I've got Studio Six SPL Meter for my iPhone and it's really close to my dedicated SPL meter for most bass freqs up to maybe a little over 10kHz.

But, get a UMIK-1 mic and use REW (free, but donations they welcome donations for such a fine app). There's lots of us who can get 'cha started, which is the most perplexing part.

 

[Rich]

I am with Robert. I take quality over quantity any day of the week. 2 Balanced Force 210's will blow away the other brands. If I make a correction, each subwoofer has a 1,700 watt ICE amp - very under-spec'd but over-delivered. Movie scores are not only exaggerated blow-up bass. They comprise of well-recorded classical soundtrack from the likes of Hans Zimmer, Jerry Smith, John Williams, etc. You want to hear these composers in all their glory with the outmost quality.

Based on what data do you think a BF210 will “blow away” a Rythmik or PSA? The BF210 has an amp which can output 850 watts RMS (1700 watts peak). And that power is divided into two 10” woofers. The two woofers have appx. 158 sq.in. of driver area. A PSA EV1813, for comparison, has a single 18” woofer with appx. 254 sq.in. of driver area, powered by a 1920 watt RMS (4300 watts peak) ICE amp. The BF210 is minus 3 dB at 20 Hz. The EV1813 is minus 3 dB at 16 Hz. With almost 100 square inches more driver area, and over twice the amp power, I assure you the PSA will “blow away” the ML. Oh, and the EV1813 is $1500 less expensive. You can almost buy two of them for the cost of one BF210. And the only quality difference you are going to find between the two is in the quality of the marketing and external appearance.

Look, I get it. I’ve owned a Descent for years. It’s a great sub, within its limitations. But for my custom home theater I’m designing, I’ll have four large PSA ported subwoofers. The Descent will be relegated to music duty in another room. As great as ML subwoofers are, they can’t yet defy the laws of physics. They simply can’t compete with larger, ported subs from other vendors for home theater use at reference levels.

 

[Robert D]

I am with Robert. I take quality over quantity any day of the week. 2 Balanced Force 210's will blow away the other brands. If I make a correction, each subwoofer has a 1,700 watt ICE amp - very under-spec'd but over-delivered. Movie scores are not only exaggerated blow-up bass. They comprise of well-recorded classical soundtrack from the likes of Hans Zimmer, Jerry Smith, John Williams, etc. You want to hear these composers in all their glory with the outmost quality.

The JL Audio Fathom subs are supposed to be pretty great, but those cost even more

Cheesy meters work just fine for a "close enough" kinda usage.
Phone apps work very well!

I've got Studio Six SPL Meter for my iPhone and it's really close to my dedicated SPL meter for most bass freqs up to maybe a little over 10kHz.

But, get a UMIK-1 mic and use REW (free, but donations they welcome donations for such a fine app). There's lots of us who can get 'cha started, which is the most perplexing part.

Ok. Ive heard you guys talk about REW. Im not familiar with a UMIK-1 mic, but sure I can figure out where to get one. I probably wont rush into doing it right away, but its something ive been wanting to do anyways. Thanks.

 

[Robert D]

Based on what data do you think a BF210 will “blow away” a Rythmik or PSA? The BF210 has an amp which can output 850 watts RMS (1700 watts peak). And that power is divided into two 10” woofers. The two woofers have appx. 158 sq.in. of driver area. A PSA EV1813, for comparison, has a single 18” woofer with appx. 254 sq.in. of driver area, powered by a 1920 watt RMS (4300 watts peak) ICE amp. The BF210 is minus 3 dB at 20 Hz. The EV1813 is minus 3 dB at 16 Hz. With almost 100 square inches more driver area, and over twice the amp power, I assure you the PSA will “blow away” the ML. Oh, and the EV1813 is $1500 less expensive. You can almost buy two of them for the cost of one BF210. And the only quality difference you are going to find between the two is in the quality of the marketing and external appearance.

Look, I get it. I’ve owned a Descent for years. It’s a great sub, within its limitations. But for my custom home theater I’m designing, I’ll have four large PSA ported subwoofers. The Descent will be relegated to music duty in another room. As great as ML subwoofers are, they can’t yet defy the laws of physics. They simply can’t compete with larger, ported subs from other vendors for home theater use at reference levels.

Are these the subs you are talking about?

Top Rated Home Theater Subwoofers - Power Sound Audio

Ive never heard of that brand, but I was looking seriously at a Rythmik sub. I decided against it because I have never owned one nor heard one and just ordering online kinda scared me. I think they offer a full refund if youre not happy with it, but I didnt want to mess with having to ship it. I think you pay for the return shipping too, so thats a cost and a big hassle. Have you ever owned either of those brands, PSA or Rythmik?

 

[Robert D]

This looks pretty beefy.

TV3613 Home Theater Subwoofer - Power Sound Audio

 

[Rich]

Are these the subs you are talking about?

Top Rated Home Theater Subwoofers - Power Sound Audio

Ive never heard of that brand, but I was looking seriously at a Rythmik sub. I decided against it because I have never owned one nor heard one and just ordering online kinda scared me. I think they offer a full refund if youre not happy with it, but I didnt want to mess with having to ship it. I think you pay for the return shipping too, so thats a cost and a big hassle. Have you ever owned either of those brands, PSA or Rythmik?

Yes, those are the subs. On AVS forum, both Rythmik and PSA have sterling reputations for quality subs and great customer service.