Interesting article....

[Muad'Dib]

On the effects of multi-channel audio on presence.

http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/icad2001/proceedings/papers/freeman.pdf

-D

 

[DTB300]

Interesting article - Thanks. Here are some cuts from the results:

Five channel presentations were only superior to two channel presentations in eliciting higher Sense of Physical Space ratings. For all other presence-related variables, two channel presentations received higher ratings.

....comparisons between the three stereo conditions suggested that bass offered a unique contribution to the media experience in addition to the increased volume that it afforded.......the 2.1 audio condition was rated more highly than the volume-matched 2.0 condition

Interestingly, for Sense of Physical Space there was no significant difference between 2.1 and 2.0, suggesting that increased volume, rather than the inclusion of bass enhanced ratings on this factor. Nevertheless, the 2.1
condition was rated more highly on Sense of Physical Space than 2.0, suggesting that bass might have offered some (non-significant) enhancement. Further, it is noteworthy that the louder stereo control condition was rated as the least natural and believable of the five audio
mixes.........the inclusion of bass to a presentation significantly enhanced audio-related ratings of excitement

Interestingly, presentations with, rather than without bass, also enhanced ratings of the visual properties of the presentation, namely, perceived audio/visual synchronicity

 

[Sky Saw]

Hi Little Mouse, and thanks for the interesting link. I think that the authors' conclusions are limited by validity issues around how they operationalize presence. For example, many audiophiles would describe the difference between tubes and SS by typifying SS as having more and better bass and tubes as having better truth-of-timbre and presence, which runs counter to the conclusions in the article. However, the article does make some good points; I would take from it the conclusion that 5.1 (multi-channel) needs to develop more before it becomes a real alternative to 2 channel.

I have never understood the fascination with 5.1 for the following reasons:
1) TV sucks enough of my life away as it is - I hardly need an incentive to watch more.
2) Budget constraints already limit my choices. Going to 5.1 would limit those choices even more .
3) What is the goal? Surely not realism. Movie theatres sound terrible (I have to wear ear-plugs), and the effects are merely that (cool, but does it actually sound good?).

Maybe one day multi-channel will be good enough to induce me to empty a bank account and fill a room with speakers, or then again, maybe my old-guy attitude will just get worse .

Frank Herbert

 

[Muad'Dib]

...Movie theatres sound terrible (I have to wear ear-plugs)...

What plugs do you use?

I hate to admit it, but I haven't had the time yet to read the article so I cannot comment on anything.

-D

 

[Wayne]

VERY INTERESTING !!!!!!!! I recently recieved " I think 2 days ago "? A call from an audio nut/ friend/ salesman/ ? who suggested I consider selling my 2 channel SACD/ CD machine "Marantz SA-14" so I could get a multichannel one. I agree with you on the fact that other than showing off technology is the sound really better? I have a DVD player capable of DVD audio so am I missing something?????????????????????????????????

 

[Muad'Dib]

Major flaw in the article is they do not mention the system being used for playback. They could very well be using small sony satellites and an 8" sony sub (as the first thing that came to mind) which might incluence the results - as opposed to using Prodigy's for all 5 channels with a real sub.

-D

 

[DTB300]

Yeah, I noticed that too, yet they came out with the statments that I highlighted in my original reply to you.

Gotta love the internet...a wealth of information....hidden somewhere

Dan

 

[TomD]

I have never understood the fascination with 5.1 for the following reasons:
1) TV sucks enough of my life away as it is - I hardly need an incentive to watch more.
2) Budget constraints already limit my choices. Going to 5.1 would limit those choices even more .
3) What is the goal? Surely not realism. Movie theatres sound terrible (I have to wear ear-plugs), and the effects are merely that (cool, but does it actually sound good?).

Hey Frank - I got to agree with you on 1. I won't turn it on unless i am really bored and for whatever reason cannot turn on the stereo. Good call on number 2, put that money where you can best optimize the sound. Quality over quantity - absolutely. Got to shy away from number 3. My wife and i hardly go the the movies. When we do, its because its a film meant for the big screen, which also means meant for that big sound. I love the sound of a quality theater, more so than the big screen.

 

[amey01]

Agree there Tom:

1: Never watch TV (but my wife does sometimes/occasionally).
2: Agreed 100%. Unless you have unlimited budget, you'll always get better performance with 2-channel. Simple economics.
3: We hardly ever go to the movies either - unless we are so bored (AND) feel like going out - that equates to about once a year.

 

[Hocky]

You will get better 2 channel sound dollar for dollar - unless you have more than 1 person in the room and actually want to hear the spatial cues of a movie soundtrack. But for multi channel music and 1 listener, yea, I agree.

 

[JMAUSGP]

You guys just keep telling your self......two channel is better than multi-channel. For you it may actually work.

And seriously from your perspective you are absolutely right. And it is cheaper to do a good 2 channel than a good 5.1 or 7.2 or 9.1 or 11.2.

But I believe there are people like me that prefer experiencing the music or movie the way a good and I mean very good multi-channel system can does make it an experience. We tend to experience the music in a more physical sense while two channel kind of like stanind next to the music, and well for us, that is our curse.

I for one can not listen to two channel any more it quickly bores me and is just too uninvolving. For me listening to something that was mixed well and for 5.1 and then played in SACD or DVD Audio on say 4 ML CLXs with JL Audio Gotham and ML Stage, in a well sound treated room with good upstream components. There they say is the rub

Well the thing is I can listen to most source material in either 2 channel or multi-channel, the fact is I am cursed and can no longer listen to anything in two channel, so much so that there are many things I would rather do, some not sound related, than listen to two channel. No offense but I think each of us reacts differently to sound stimulus and my reaction leans toward multi-channel.

For example I bought Beatles in Mono and listened once, for me the sound was so collapsed that i could not listen all the way through, I gave it away to someone who likes mono. How they can truly love mono, I do not know but good for them, they can save lots of money and time and they don't have to deal with the multichannel curse, like the rest of us.

 

[JMAUSGP]

AIX 3D Records

Not to throw a monkey wrench in to the discussion but I got a a recommendation for the Goldberg VAriations in 3D BD on AIX Records from as they say another forum. The 3-D BD Goldberg Variations is hard to describe but suffice to say, once you experience it, you will have a tougher time going back to 2D and 2 channel.

First, if you really love music you owe it to yourself to check it out.

When you get it home, darken your TV room, place a chair 1 to 1 1/2 screen sizes from your 3D TV, pour a glass of your favorite libation, or in the case of, you know who you are .........a joint now go to "chapter" number six(Variation # 4)(the whole disc is excellent, but six/seven is a great initial experience)-- and experience a whole new world.

After you have experienced this it will be interesting to hear if your opinion of 3D and 3D multichannel music and how it now compares to 2D and 2 channel music. You may find that you now have the curse.

Have you ever been a part of a jam session? What was the best live musical experience of your life? Well, you can now go there again in your own home. What is that experience worth? This is true virtual reality-- you experience it -- not watch it. This is not a new form of television -- this is a whole new world.:music:

Do your self a favor and just check it out, just don't get mad at me, because I told you so.:devil:

 

[amey01]

But I believe there are people like me that prefer experiencing the music or movie the way a good and I mean very good multi-channel system can does make it an experience.

Oh, don't for one second think I disagree......of course! It's just that if you don't have an unlimited (and I mean unlimited) budget, then 2-channel wins. Always.

As I said - simple economics. If you buy less then you can afford better quality.

Your system is one of the higher-budget ones...... :rocker:

 

[Bernard]

Oh, don't for one second think I disagree......of course! It's just that if you don't have an unlimited (and I mean unlimited) budget, then 2-channel wins. Always.

As I said - simple economics. If you buy less then you can afford better quality.

Your system is one of the higher-budget ones...... :rocker:

Very true. Few of us have listened to let alone can afford TWO pairs of CLX's in an x.n (where n=1,2) system. I would love to listen to Joe's system, but would have to leave my preconceptions at the door. I have always thought that multi-channel would be great for a musician, who is used to being in the middle of a band, as opposed to me, who is used to a mid-hall seat, listening to an orchestra.

 

[amey01]

I have always thought that multi-channel would be great for a musician, who is used to being in the middle of a band, as opposed to me, who is used to a mid-hall seat, listening to an orchestra.

It's not so much about being in the middle of the music, but re-creating the spatial cues that allow you to determine where you are in a particular place.

I'm not too sure about that concept either (as a listening room will always have a different sonic characteristic than the actual event), so definitely a case of leaving preconceptions at the door!

I too, would love to hear a great and well set up multichannel system.

But it gets very complex! There's a whole lot of other factors to consider here, least not the engineering of the recording! You're not just recording instruments to be recreated in another space (your listening room), but you're recording the entire acoustic as well. It is very difficult to get right, and if it is not right then the multichannel is nothing more than novelty.

 

[GaryG]

For example I bought Beatles in Mono and listened once, for me the sound was so collapsed that i could not listen all the way through, I gave it away to someone who likes mono.

I bought the Beatles "Love" Cirque de Soliel sound track on DVD-Audio and I have certainly played it more than once.

I agree with Joe up to the point of 3D and maybe even on the 3D later. Every time I have a choice of music I will opt for the multi-channel version. Yes, I have CLX mains and Prodigy rears with solid supporting equipment but IMHO you need not be at the unlimited budget level to spread to 5.1 or 7.1 or...

 

[TomD]

I believe there are people like me that prefer experiencing the music or movie the way a good and I mean very good multi-channel system can does make it an experience

Don't get me wrong; i very much enjoy my 5.2 setup as relatively meager as it is In movies 5.1 is very important to reproduce the realism intended by the engineers. And with all the music concert DVD that i enjoy, again it is very important (to me) to capture that concert experience.

Yet, i listen mostly to 2.1.:music:

Then again, if we all had your system we may wind up burning our stereo disks:ROFL:

 

[JMAUSGP]

So I take it no has tried my suggestion of the 3D Bluray AIX Records Goldberg Variations with 3D sound and 3D video?

Come on guys where is your sense of adventure?

If nothing else, you can order Goldberg Variations on the net and take it in to Best Buy and have them play it for you in 3D with surround sound. Maybe not a highend ML experience, but I would guess it may shock you anyway.:rocker:

 

[amey01]

So I take it no has tried my suggestion of the 3D Bluray AIX Records Goldberg Variations with 3D sound and 3D video?

Come on guys where is your sense of adventure?

If nothing else, you can order Goldberg Variations on the net and take it in to Best Buy and have them play it for you in 3D with surround sound. Maybe not a highend ML experience, but I would guess it may shock you anyway.:rocker:

My listening room has video nothing and no surround sound - how can I even attempt?

 

[JMAUSGP]

My listening room has video nothing and no surround sound - how can I even attempt?

I would think Oz has some electronics stores that are selling 3D and surround sound systems. But if not maybe someone you know will take the 3D plunge and then that might be your chance to pounce.